Irish Boston, Italian Philadelphia

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by craigs

Thank you for acknowledging the fact that English and American are not the same exact thing and just lumping them together willy-nilly as if they were interchangeable.

"American" probably consists of:

• English settlers and colonists (perhaps Dutch, French, and German as well) from the 17th and 18th centuries
• Descendants of Scotch-Irish immigrants, in which case they could claim English, Scottish, Irish, British, or British Isles ancestry
• People who don't know and/or don't care about their heritage
• Americans who are North/Western European mutts (German, Irish, English)
• Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews
• Native Americans
• Shameless patriots

Bottom line though is that English ancestry is undercounted. It's certainly at least second to German; maybe even #1.

[Crawford]

Sometimes you need to look past the comparative numbers. NYC likely has a more overt Italian feel than Philly or Boston bc it had heavy Italian immigration into the 1970's. I don't believe there's another U.S. metro where you have significant Italian-born or second generation populations, and where Si Parla Italiano signs in store windows are still fairly common.

I have a work colleague who handles translations (taxes, govt. notices, estate planning etc.) for a 90-yo Italian lady who never worked out of the home, and raised kids in Bensonhurst, so has limited English. This isn't that uncommon, though that generation is passing, obviously. Even into the early 2000's, there were Italian Brooklyn neighborhoods where English was used about as frequently as an immigrant Mexican neighborhood today.

Bensonhurst did diversify pretty quickly however. Even though it's still more authentically Italian than South Philly, it's also under much more real estate/demographic pressure. You have Orthodox pushing from the north, Chinese from the west, former Soviets from the south. Children and grandchildren were happy to sell grandma's place for seven figures, and buy a McMansion in NJ or PA sprawl, or cash out to Florida or the Carolinas. But even today, you can still find an Italian music shop, an Italian soccer shop, lots of old man social clubs and the like. And obviously tons of salumerias and bakeries.

[Docere]

There's still a good number of Italian-born and Italian speakers in the NYC metro area, though they're obviously very aged half a century after the end of the postwar wave. Outer borough Italian communities like Bensonhurst/Dyker Heights, Howard Beach and Whitestone are likely more comprised of postwar immigrant and their children than descendants of Ellis Island immigrants.

[Crawford]

Right. Bensonhurst was almost certainly much more Jewish than Italian for most of its history. I've seen a comparison of last names from yearbooks from New Utrecht High (local high school, the one shown in Welcome Back Kotter). The names appear heavily Jewish well into the 1970s.

It didn't become an Italian-dominated neighborhood until the 1960's, when secular Jews started leaving for the burbs. And it probably peaked in the 1980's, so very late for a U.S. Italian neighborhood. Immigration from Sicily and Calabria continued till about 1980. So you still have a lot of Italian grannies mixed in with the newer groups.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by eschaton

This is absolutely true for Irish Catholic, but it's not really true for those of French Canadian descent. Mind you, they are little known outside of New England, but they still have a pretty rednecky reputation within the area.

I recall reading a paper a few years back looking at economic dynamism of immigrant groups when they came to the U.S., and it concluded that the 19th century Quebecois migrants were essentially the only group which showed no considerable upward mobility with further generations. They came to work in the mills, and by and large they're still working and lower-middle class.

But removing that region-specific identity, having French ancestry is, by and large, viewed in the same category as British Isles and Germanic. Even though French is a Latin-based Catholic culture, Americans view it as distinct from Italian and certainly Spanish and Portuguese.

All white U.S. presidents have been of the following ancestries exclusively:

Dutch
English
French (albeit all Huguenot)
German
Irish
Scottish
Swiss
Ulster Scots
Welsh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancest..._United_States

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Quixote

But removing that region-specific identity, having French ancestry is, by and large, viewed in the same category as British Isles and Germanic. Even though French is a Latin-based Catholic culture, Americans view it as distinct from Italian and certainly Spanish and Portuguese.

All white U.S. presidents have been of the following ancestries exclusively:

Dutch
English
French (albeit all Huguenot)
German
Irish
Scottish
Swiss
Ulster Scots
Welsh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancest..._United_States

The thing is, true Franco-Americans are pretty damned rare in the U.S. context. Almost all of the Francophone population are either Franco-Canadian, or else from Louisiana (either Cajun or Creole).

The French simply weren't big on immigrating in general anywhere in the 19th century. Even in French Algeria, which was run as a settler colony, the Pied Noirs were ethnically mixed, developing a French national identity, but also including a lot of Italians, Spaniard, and Maltese immigrants.

The low levels of emigration seem to come down to an early collapse of the French birth rate. In the early 19th century, the average French woman had only about 3.5 children, while in England, the average woman had six children. When considering higher infant mortality, this meant that French population growth was pretty stagnant, and relies upon immigration from elsewhere in Europe to keep growing.

And on a random aside, it's weird that no American presidents have had any Scandinavian ancestry.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Docere

Pennsylvania German goes back to colonial times, something like a quarter to a third of the colony was German. So a lot of the "old stock" in Philadelphia were of German ancestry. And obviously mainline Protestant is closer to WASP-dom than to Catholic ethnic. German seems invisible as an ethnic group in Philadelphia.

"Pennsylvania German" implies an ethnic group unique to a specific locale, especially if it can be traced all the way back to the 17th century. They are distinct from the waves of 19th-century German Catholic immigrants who settled in the Midwest. Are German Catholics "ethnic"? Are neither "ethnic"? German culture is not "establishment," even if parts of it were woven into the American fabric. Just look at how German ancestry is most heavily concentrated in the Great Lakes and Upper Midwest states. Harvesting corn or milking cows is very different than responding to 911 calls or putting out fires, but they're all done by what most people would consider to be "Joe Schmoes."

What about Irish Americans in suburban Boston who trace their lineage back to County Cork but, through generational attrition, have become an admixture of British Isles heritage. Those people would be "generic Americans," but they would also be counted as "ethnic" because they have some Irish DNA and live in an area where Irish heritage is abundant.

Acknowledgement that the Irish have ascended the establishment ranks along with recognition that religion is becoming increasingly less important among the general American populace suggests that you're aware that the goal posts have shifted, "ethnic" evolving into a definition more connotative of social stature and away from history/culture/religion.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

And on a random aside, it's weird that no American presidents have had any Scandinavian ancestry.

Is it? The Scandinavian population is very concentrated in "Greater Minnesota" (Minnesota and all the states that neighbor it).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Is it? The Scandinavian population is very concentrated in "Greater Minnesota" (Minnesota and all the states that neighbor it).

Chicago got a fair amount of swedes back in the day.

Not twin cities levels, but significant nonetheless.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Acknowledgement that the Irish have ascended the establishment ranks along with recognition that religion is becoming increasingly less important among the general American populace suggests that you're aware that the goal posts have shifted, "ethnic" evolving into a definition more connotative of social stature and away from history/culture/religion.

Yeah, "white working class" is probably a more useful term these days than "white ethnic".

Individual white ethnicities in the US only ever decrease with each passing year.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Chicago fot a fair amount of swedes back in the day.

Not twin cities levels, but significant nonetheless.

Pretty much every European group in the Midwest (including the largely rural groups) were well represented in early 20th century Chicago, except for the Finns (who are not Scandinavians). Talk about geographic concentration - they're pretty much all around Lake Superior (in both the US and Canada).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Yeah, "white working class" is probably a more useful term these days than "white ethnic".

Individual white ethnicities in the US only ever decreases with each passing year.

With the exception of the Amish and Hasids - which shows how far you need to go to resist assimilation into the mainstream white identity.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The thing is, true Franco-Americans are pretty damned rare in the U.S. context. Almost all of the Francophone population are either Franco-Canadian, or else from Louisiana (either Cajun or Creole).

Point taken. I'm just saying that French ancestry, denomination notwithstanding, is pretty much given "easy entry into the club," especially if alongside British Isles and Germanic, while Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Greek, or ancestry from any formerly Communist country will be "asked to show their ID."

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Quixote

And based on personal observations, a lot of people from Boston / New England have surnames that, if not Irish Catholic, are certainly of the English/Scottish/Welsh/Ulster variety. The last two people I met who were from Boston had the surnames "McHugh" and "MacKay."

Perfect example of a "tough white guy from the mean inner-city streets" with an unequivocally non-Irish Catholic yet British Isles surname:

William "Bill" Joseph Bratton of Dorchester who served as head of BPD, NYPD, and LAPD.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

"Pennsylvania German" implies an ethnic group unique to a specific locale, especially if it can be traced all the way back to the 17th century.

They are a distinctive ethnic group that really developed on North American soil.

Just look at how German ancestry is most heavily concentrated in the Great Lakes and Upper Midwest states. Harvesting corn or milking cows is very different than responding to 911 calls or putting out fires, but they're all done by what most people would consider to be "Joe Schmoes."

Indeed, if I associate Americans of German ancestry with anything it's with the Midwest and farming. Very "middle America" so to speak.

Acknowledgement that the Irish have ascended the establishment ranks along with recognition that religion is becoming increasingly less important among the general American populace suggests that you're aware that the goal posts have shifted, "ethnic" evolving into a definition more connotative of social stature and away from history/culture/religion.

Well, yeah. Irish Americans have been totally integrated into the mainstream for a long time, save a few holdouts in the Northeast and Chicago.

Irish still have a culturally working class image though, associated with cops, city workers, tradesmen, Irish pubs, guys with shamrock tattoos etc.

Italians are underrepresented in the establishmentarian circles compared to other whites in the Northeast. Irish don't seem to be.

[Docere]

Since I'm going through 1980 census data, here's the ancestry count in two "WASP" suburbs.

Bronxville: Irish 32.3%, English 31.2%, German 22.7%, Italian 17.9%

Winnetka: English 30.7%, German 28.4%, Irish 23.3%, Polish 4%, Italian 3.7%

English most overrepresented, German and Irish also very well represented, southern and eastern European Catholics underrepresented compared to other whites. Since then Italian and Polish representation has doubled in Winnetka (to around 6-7% each). Episcopalians and Presbyterians are associated with higher status, and those denominations are closely linked to English and Scottish ancestry.

English ancestry responses have since plummeted, as they have everywhere.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Indeed, if I associate Americans of German ancestry with anything it's with the Midwest and farming. Very "middle America" so to speak.

Interesting.

Given my background, I associate Americans of German ancestry with the great cities they built, like Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Chicago, and so on......

My guess is that >95% of Americans with German ancestry have never milked a cow

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by eschaton

There are plenty of Indigenous Americans from Latin America who have migrated to the U.S. and speak little to no Spanish/have no Spanish ancestry.

Spaniards are not Latino. The people that live in the countries that Spain colonized are Latino. It's pretty straightforward.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Would you consider someone from a German-speaking Mennonite community in Latin America to be Latino?

The reluctance to accept them as Latino seems to be rooted in the American idea of Latinos as a subjugated class of people. If this is your only understanding of Latino then I can see why this is hard to wrap your head around. But Latino is no more complicated or problematic than "European". However, Mitt Romney and George Romney were not Latino. The Romney family never severed ties to the United States.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Point taken. I'm just saying that French ancestry, denomination notwithstanding, is pretty much given "easy entry into the club," especially if alongside British Isles and Germanic, while Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Greek, or ancestry from any formerly Communist country will be "asked to show their ID."

I understand your point, but I just don't think it's true in practice. The Francophone communities within the U.S. were historically excluded from "the Club" Not only were French-speaking New Englanders looked down on as Rednecks, but Cajuns were a socially isolated semi-underclass in Louisiana as well. I think a lot of this just came down to class - they were both poor groups - but still, class factors trumped looking a bit "whiter."

Hell, if we're talking about "looking white" Poles are just as pale as anyone from the British Isles, if not moreso.

Edit: Louisiana Creoles, which included wealthy people of mostly or entirely European descent, absolutely stayed socially segregated from the English-speaking, Protestant class which came to dominate Louisiana as well.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Since I'm going through 1980 census data, here's the ancestry count in two "WASP" suburbs.

Bronxville: Irish 32.3%, English 31.2%, German 22.7%, Italian 17.9%

Winnetka: English 30.7%, German 28.4%, Irish 23.3%, Polish 4%, Italian 3.7%

English most overrepresented, German and Irish also very well represented, southern and eastern European Catholics underrepresented compared to other whites. Since then Italian and Polish representation has doubled in Winnetka (to around 6-7% each). Episcopalians and Presbyterians are associated with higher status, and those denominations are closely linked to English and Scottish ancestry.

English ancestry responses have since plummeted, as they have everywhere.

Wow, Bronxville had large Irish and Italian share in 1980. I wouldn't have guessed this, given its WASPy reputation. There is an estate enclave and a slightly more modest apartment enclave, which is pretty indistinguishable from neighboring parts of Yonkers. The apartment enclave nowadays is pretty posh too, but maybe there were sharper cleavages back then.