Tucson Development Thread

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by andrewsaturn

I think that if 75 E Broadway is re-evaluated as a ground floor for retail, several levels of parking, and the rest as residential then it will be financed and come out of the ashes. Housing market is hot enough for it. How tall it is will be in question.

I asked both Swaim and Dabdoub about that and they said they still want office and there was already residential in the plan anyways.

This is why we need better developers. Ones that can deliver. It shouldn't have taken another full year for them to find another financer when residential towers are going up right and left in the Phx area and even student housing by UofA.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

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[ZonaRealtor2021]

Originally Posted by AZ71

I asked both Swaim and Dabdoub about that and they said they still want office and there was already residential in the plan anyways.

This is why we need better developers. Ones that can deliver. It shouldn't have taken another full year for them to find another financer when residential towers are going up right and left in the Phx area and even student housing by UofA.

Did they by chance mention to you that the project is for sure back on?

I wish they would think big and really try to make it the cities tallest & pass the 400 foot mark.

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by ZonaRealtor2021

Did they by chance mention to you that the project is for sure back on?

I wish they would think big and really try to make it the cities tallest & pass the 400 foot mark.

They told me quote "it is not dead"....whatever that means. So I assume it means they're still looking for financers. But I wish they'd go back to the drawing board and create something more architecturally significant.

I don't know why they wont go taller. I've stated the marketing benefits of being able to call their building the tallest. I even suggested they only use half of the parcel (which is huge city block btw) and go higher...or stairstep design it so we can at least get to 331ft (one foot taller than One South Church).

Maybe it has something to do with the materials. Maybe it'll be all wood poured concrete where you can only build so high, where traditional skyscrapers are steel. But can you imagine being able to have a skybar or restaurant on the top level with unobstructed views? Perfect viewing of A mountain fireworks on July 4th. Amazing sunsets....and the media publicity surrounding it since we haven't changed our skyline in 35 years.

Honestly, my gut says its dead even if they say it isn't.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by AZ71

So I assume it means they're still looking for financers.

I'm sorry but isn't this what Rio Nuevo was for??? Financing??? Or was it all just grift ???

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

I'm sorry but isn't this what Rio Nuevo was for??? Financing??? Or was it all just grift ???

the Rio Nuevo organization redirects sales tax income generated within the district to projects within the district. This tax income would have gone into state coffers and most likely not used within the district.

The Board is granted theses funds to distribute to projects that occur within the district. The Projects must increase the tax revenue at the site and must present projections that show as much. This is why housing, parks and other projects that do not drive sales tax are usually not included.

This is a simplification, but that is a overview. Many projects within the district would not have happened without Rio Nuevo backing and funding. Are there issues? Sure, but for the most part I see the latest iteration of Rio Nuevo as being a benefit to the community.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

the Rio Nuevo organization redirects sales tax income generated within the district to projects within the district. This tax income would have gone into state coffers and most likely not used within the district.

The Board is granted theses funds to distribute to projects that occur within the district. The Projects must increase the tax revenue at the site and must present projections that show as much. This is why housing, parks and other projects that do not drive sales tax are usually not included.

This is a simplification, but that is a overview. Many projects within the district would not have happened without Rio Nuevo backing and funding. Are there issues? Sure, but for the most part I see the latest iteration of Rio Nuevo as being a benefit to the community.

All that may be true...and I hope it is...but I suspect large amounts of taxpayer funds have been siphoned as for-fee "study" work that would never reasonably result in an actual project. That's what I mean by grift.

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

All that may be true...and I hope it is...but I suspect large amounts of taxpayer funds have been siphoned as for-fee "study" work that would never reasonably result in an actual project. That's what I mean by grift.

The Rio Nuevo from the late 90s and early OOs is not the same organization. I feel this iteration is financially responsible. I am not aware of RN funds being used for studies in many years. Many of the financial project studies that are presented are funded by the group representing the project and not RN

You can see their ledger with each expense here:https://rionuevo.org/documents/finances/expense-ledger/

[AZ71]

I just heard that Marcel Dabdoub, developer of the 75 E Broadway project, says the commercial office space is still a hard sell holding up the project. But he adds it’s required by the construction contract.

So change the construction contract to a full residential tower or start over.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by AZ71

I just heard that Marcel Dabdoub, developer of the 75 E Broadway project, says the commercial office space is still a hard sell holding up the project. But he adds it’s required by the construction contract.

So change the construction contract to a full residential tower or start over.

how can 3-6 stories (original design i think) of office space be a hard sell in a mixed-use tower with 10 floors of retail in a DT that has virtually no new Class A office space in, what, 20 years??? head-scratching as usual...

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

The Rio Nuevo from the late 90s and early OOs is not the same organization. I feel this iteration is financially responsible. I am not aware of RN funds being used for studies in many years. Many of the financial project studies that are presented are funded by the group representing the project and not RN

You can see their ledger with each expense here:https://rionuevo.org/documents/finances/expense-ledger/

you sound like you've done the due diligence so i will trust your research...i really hope you're right!

[Azstar]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

how can 3-6 stories (original design i think) of office space be a hard sell in a mixed-use tower with 10 floors of retail in a DT that has virtually no new Class A office space in, what, 20 years??? head-scratching as usual...

There is currently 0 demand for office space downtown, and there hasn't been for many many years. No developer is going to risk millions of dollars to build a tall structure or office structure just because some people want it.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by Azstar

There is currently 0 demand for office space downtown, and there hasn't been for many many years. No developer is going to risk millions of dollars to build a tall structure or office structure just because some people want it.

yes but isn't the whole point of RN to go "find" demand - i.e., go get another Caterpillar to move to Tucson to increase demand? isn't that the point of it? to creatively manufacture a renaissance (people and work) in downtown??? maybe i'm wrong...

[combusean]

Caterpillar located to Tucson because there was already a reason for them to be there: a long local history with mining and proximity to regional operations and suppliers. That probably would have happened without Rio Nuevo but the subsidy was just icing on the cake.

I don't know how much of this is to be believed (6M sqft in downtown tucson?!) but 3% is beyond full for office and the submarket should have *something* on the horizon.

[AZ71]

Originally Posted by Azstar

There is currently 0 demand for office space downtown, and there hasn't been for many many years. No developer is going to risk millions of dollars to build a tall structure or office structure just because some people want it.

Agree. There is zero demand downtown for office space because most new businesses moving to the region are building their own buildings in the plethora of shovel-ready tech and industrial parks the city is constructing for them. ie: The Bridges, The UA Tech Park, Raytheon, Research Loop Industrial Park.

Rio Nuevo and the City of Tucson are out of their minds if they think businesses are going to move into downtown because they think its "cool". Keep downtown as an entertainment venue focusing on residential and it has a chance. Thats why they should focus on residential towers and build some sort of arena downtown on the Nor-Gen Arena site.

Catepillar only moved downtown because we gave them gobs of cash to move there.

[crzyabe]

My organization is thriving, yet we have zero need for office space in the foreseeable future. In fact we are talking, long term, about offloading some of what we have.

Work from home, remote working, and hybrid working are here to stay and this will probably have an impact on commercial real estate, especially in markets like Tucson.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by combusean

I don't know how much of this is to be believed (6M sqft in downtown tucson?!) but 3% is beyond full for office and the submarket should have *something* on the horizon.

The three largest buildings in downtown Tucson are less than 1M sq ft total (around 600k I think) so 6M total sq ft seems really high unless that is ALL inventory (retail and office) but even then it seems high. Cushman is pretty reliable obviously but, yea, these stats (esp. 3% vacancy) seems wildly off...

[InTheBurbs]

Some good news on the airline front...

Canadian airline to launch winter nonstop flights from Tucson

Flair Airlines announcing twice-weekly, seasonal non-stop service to Tucson from Edmonton and Fort McMurray, Alberta, and weekly from Lethbridge, Alberta; Prince George, BC; and Windsor, Ontario starting in November or December.

According to the TAA, Tucson will be the only US destination from four of those airports (excluding Edmonton, I assume).

[Azstar]

Originally Posted by InTheBurbs

Some good news on the airline front...

Canadian airline to launch winter nonstop flights from Tucson

Flair Airlines announcing twice-weekly, seasonal non-stop service to Tucson from Edmonton and Fort McMurray, Alberta, and weekly from Lethbridge, Alberta; Prince George, BC; and Windsor, Ontario starting in November or December.

According to the TAA, Tucson will be the only US destination from four of those airports (excluding Edmonton, I assume).

Naturally, I would like this service to be successful, but Tucson has not had much luck with nonstop service to obscure cities. Over the past few years Tucson has had, and lost, nonstop service to Bellingham, Wa; Sacramento, Ontario, Ca; San Jose, Ca; most recently Burbank, Ca; Provo, UT; Austin, Tx; Hermosillo, Mx; in addition to nonstop flights to Indianapolis, Newark, JFK, Washington Dulles, and Charlotte.

[combusean]

^ Most of those airports in the "obscure" category are busier than TIA and half are either principal airports or busy relievers of much larger ones.