Urban? Suburban?

Docere · #1 Posted **Jan 10, 2020, 11:16 PM**

digitallagasse · #2 Posted **Jan 10, 2020, 11:31 PM**

My personal view is that urban built form is designed around the pedestrian and suburban built form is built around the car.

softee · #3 Posted **Jan 10, 2020, 11:41 PM**

Urban all the way.

jd3189 · #4 Posted **Jan 10, 2020, 11:48 PM**

Hybrids exist, and those Toronto neighborhoods are an example. Big US examples include most of Queens, Eastern Brooklyn, Central LA, Western SF, much of Chicago outside the Loop and core areas, and several central neighborhoods in Seattle.

Maybe these are the inner ring/ streetcar suburbs many have refer to. To me, the pedestrian and the car can coexist in harmony in these places.

Crawford · #5 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 1:38 AM**

In the North American context, likely urban-leaning, but elements of both. It's very subjective. Streetcar suburbia in a 21st century boomtown.

Steely Dan · #6 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 2:17 AM**

The main commercial drag: urban

The tighter bungalow style SFH residential streets: streetcar

The large lot/large SFH residential streets: suburban

The towers in the park: I guess urban, but like the worst kind. Not my cup of tea at all.

It's an interesting mash-up any way you look at it.

softee · #7 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 2:35 AM**

I really like this street and I'd happily live in one of those old apartment buildings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/328...!4d-79.4122966

Docere · #8 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 3:01 AM**

Some stats for the area. Lower Forest Hill (Forest Hill South), south of Eglinton Ave., is what people commonly associate with "Forest Hill" - it's where the big mansions and super-rich are, the average SFH is probably around $5 million. Upper Forest Hill (Forest Hill North) is north of Eglinton, on the border with North York, is mostly big apartment buildings with some "regular" rich SFHs (i.e. around $2 or $3 million).

Forest Hill South

Detached house 34%
Apartment <5 stories 22%
Apartment 5+ stories 41%

Median household income $94,536
Median family income $183,174
Per capita income $204,521

Drive to work 49%
Public transit to work 38%

Forest Hill North

Detached house 27%
Apartment <5 stories 7%
Apartment 5+ stories 63%

Median household income $70,920
Median family income $100,785
Per capita income $85,099

Drive to work 46%
Public transit to work 43%

Handro · #9 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 3:07 AM**

Technically urban is any area with a population density of 1500 people per square mile, I believe.

Colloquially, It’s all subjective. One persons urban is another’s suburban and one persons suburban is another's rural. Here is the intersection I live on:

https://goo.gl/maps/VqUEojjGd4wDqbJc7

I met a woman from manhattan staying in an Airbnb nearby last summer and she thought we were in the suburbs. I can just as easily imagine someone from a more rural/exurban area feeling the opposite.

goat314 · #10 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 3:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handro

Technically urban is any area with a population density of 1500 people per square mile, I believe.

Colloquially, It’s all subjective. One persons urban is another’s suburban and one persons suburban is another's rural. Here is the intersection I live on:

https://goo.gl/maps/VqUEojjGd4wDqbJc7

I met a woman from manhattan staying in an Airbnb nearby last summer and she thought we were in the suburbs. I can just as easily imagine someone from a more rural/exurban area feeling the opposite.

If there is grass and more than a couple trees most New Yorkers think they're on a farm.

Most Americans would definitely think this is an urban and rather dense neighborhood. Most Americans can't even walk to a corner store.

Crawford · #11 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 5:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by goat314

If there is grass and more than a couple trees most New Yorkers think they're on a farm.

Most Americans would definitely think this is an urban and rather dense neighborhood. Most Americans can't even walk to a corner store.

Yeah, it's basically subjective and unanswerable.

A Manhattanite thinks Riverdale, Bronx or Forest Hills, Queens (areas with higher density than almost anywhere in the U.S. outside of NYC) are the country. But someone in exurban America would consider Forest Hill, Toronto to be intensely urban and incredibly packed-in.

RecRollReel · #12 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 5:39 PM**

Berkeley, CA came to mind

Docere · #13 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 6:58 PM**

Population of Forest Hill is 23,500, with a density of about 15,000 people per square mile.

Forest Hill was incorporated as a village in 1924. It joined Metropolitan Toronto in 1953 and maintained semi-autonomous status until 1967 when the village was abolished.

Lower Forest Hill was built up in the 1920s and 1930s, while Upper Forest Hill was built up in the 1940s and 1950s.

The big apartments are from the 1960s.

goat314 · #14 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 9:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, it's basically subjective and unanswerable.

A Manhattanite thinks Riverdale, Bronx or Forest Hills, Queens (areas with higher density than almost anywhere in the U.S. outside of NYC) are the country. But someone in exurban America would consider Forest Hill, Toronto to be intensely urban and incredibly packed-in.

Funny you say that. I dated a girl from Harlem who only considered Manhattan to be "New York City" and called Yonkers "upstate".

Docere · #15 Posted **Jan 11, 2020, 10:08 PM**

Moving west from Forest Hill along Eglinton, you enter the old borough of York - largely a working class rump centered along Eglinton Ave. that held out until the amalgamation of 1998. The line between the "old" city of Toronto and York seems quite arbitrary, even when York existed it didn't really have a strong civic identity.

Moving west from Forest Hill along Eglinton, the class composition quickly changes. Here is the Oakwood-Vaughan area (aka Five Points), a multicultural working class neighborhood that includes an important Caribbean commercial area.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69705...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69681...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/168...!4d-79.4457191

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/171...!4d-79.4467047

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69238...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69086...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69296...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69580...7i16384!8i8192

Cirrus · #16 Posted **Jan 13, 2020, 4:26 PM**

Fully urban: Both residential and commercial streets are oriented around pedestrians.

Fully suburban: Both residential and commercial streets are oriented around cars.

Hybrid: One but not the other (and I can cite examples of both).

Centropolis · #17 Posted **Jan 13, 2020, 4:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

What's an area that combines "urban" and "suburban" characteristics?

eh, i think of areas like this one outside of st. louis that is extremely car oriented, the decent amount of jewish orthodox foot traffic notwithstanding, but with pre-war housing forms like 2 and 4-flats, apartment buildings lining transit corridors with blocks of SFH behind. single story storefronts facing a sidewalk.

https://goo.gl/maps/d9wXk8ktjfgMzGMZ8

https://goo.gl/maps/cSX7bhf89X4ZSVR86

i do a significant amount of walking in this area including to a large suburban CBD to the south.

Obadno · #18 Posted **Jan 13, 2020, 4:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

What's an area that combines "urban" and "suburban" characteristics?

I would call this urban. Just because there are single family homes does not mean it isnt urban.

Docere · #19 Posted **Jan 13, 2020, 5:00 PM**

Nouvellecosse · #20 Posted **Jan 14, 2020, 12:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno

I would call this urban. Just because there are single family homes does not mean it isnt urban.

For me it's more important to consider the kind of SFHs rather than whether or not they exist. If they're set back from the street behind large front lawns and driveways, and there's enough of these type of properties that they characterize the area, then yea I'd generally call it suburban. But if they're packed fairly close together and built close to the street or if there's only a few of the type that are surrounded by more land then that can still be urban.

Generally a good way to judge it is to look at the overall percentage of land covered by buildings as opposed to roads, parking, and lawn type spaces. But this comes with one caveat. If you compare two areas of SFHs with the same lot coverage and same street widths but in one area the houses are built to the street with a big backyard while in the other the houses are in the middle or back of the lot with a bigger front yard, I'd consider the former to be more urban.