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  #4021  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 8:50 PM
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I don't see why it's surprising that Detroit would sprawl more to the north and west than it does to the south... just given the orientation of where the core city is and how it was laid out. Add in that established cities like Pontiac and Flint were major players in the auto industry right along with Detroit and you have even more reason for growth in that direction. Development grids are naturally going to extend out to the NW.

And with heavy industry naturally locating along the Rouge River and Detroit River to the south, I would guess that the suburbs in that direction are mainly 1950s to 70s era, without much newer sprawl. That's pretty common.
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  #4022  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 9:20 PM
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^ if you reread, my surprise wasn't that there was a favored direction for sprawl, it was that DTW seemed to do little to attract further sprawl around it.

major airports are typically huge economic generators, supporting thousands upon thousands of direct and ancillary jobs, so I was a little surprised to see literal farms due south of DTW and not housing developments for some of those workers.




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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I believe much of the Erie lakefront in Monroe County is protected land and owned by the state. Also, Grosse Ile is one of the most expensive communities in Wayne County. It's located at the mouth of the Detroit River in southern Wayne County.
Does Monroe county have strong green-belt or other anti-sprawl laws in place? I ask because metro Detroit sprawl spilling southwest seems to stop dead in its tracks at the Huron river, which forms the Monroe/Wayne border.

Google maps says it's only a 25 minute drive from the Huron river into downtown, which is actually fairly close-in from a time perspective
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  #4023  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 9:31 PM
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I could be wrong here, but I think Detroit's airport is only recently a truly major airport. Cincinnati was Delta's number 2 hub after Atlanta, but when Delta and Northwest Airlines merged, Cincy lost the hub, and Detroit grew significantly. That's about the time the new terminal was built too, IIRC. Prior to that, I don't really remember DTW being a big deal.

Certainly seems like a different trajectory than O'Hare, which has always been one of America's biggest and most important airports. Maybe that helps to explain the differing land uses around each airport.
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  #4024  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 9:40 PM
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^ DTW was a fortress hub for northwest airlines prior to the Delta merger, since the '80s, so it's been a major airport for a good long while now.

And the massive and new-ish mcnamara terminal was completed in 2002, 6 years prior to the Delta merger.
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  #4025  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ DTW was a fortress hub for northwest airlines prior to the Delta merger, since the '80s, so it's been a major airport for a good long while now.

And the massive and new-ish mcnamara terminal was completed in 2002, 6 years prior to the Delta merger.
Hm, well idk then. Cincinnati's airport is also at the fringe of the metro, and has only recently started to become a real jobs cluster, as it's become one of the leading freight airports in the country. Pittsburgh's is also at the edge of its metro, and has little development around it. You could say the same about Dulles, up til about 15 years ago. I don't think Detroit's situation is as odd as you're making it out to be.
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  #4026  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 11:53 PM
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I'd think airports usually are bad for residential desirability. Who wants to live near a giant airport? Chicago's favored quarter is North/West in spite of O'Hare. No one says move to Glencoe bc you might hear planes all day and night (assuming it's on a flight path). Airport-related jobs are typically very blue collar. It's probably great for warehousing, but who wants to live near trucks and warehouses?

Thinking of major cities, it seems most mega-airports are in not particularly desirable areas.
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  #4027  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 11:59 PM
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Toronto's Pearson Airport is in Malton, which is part of Mississauga but really more connected to Brampton and cut off from the rest of Mississauga. The northwest GTA is very blue collar/industrial.

Seattle's airport is in the suburb of SeaTac, in the southern industrial sector of the region.

And isn't LAX really close to Inglewood?
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  #4028  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ if you reread, my surprise wasn't that there was a favored direction for sprawl, it was that DTW seemed to do little to attract further sprawl around it
yeah, my comment wasn’t really in response to your thoughts. More in response to thoughts about shoreline, distance, etc. I think Detroit’s suburban sprawl pattern makes sense, based on its orientation and rustbelt location. But yes, I also wonder why there wouldn’t be more development near an airport that’s a pretty busy hub.
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  #4029  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Does Monroe county have strong green-belt or other anti-sprawl laws in place? I ask because metro Detroit sprawl spilling southwest seems to stop dead in its tracks at the Huron river, which forms the Monroe/Wayne border.

Google maps says it's only a 25 minute drive from the Huron river into downtown, which is actually fairly close-in from a time perspective
I don't know the specifics, but Berlin Township is incorporated as a charter township on the Wayne County border. I suspect it is instrumental in blocking sprawl into the county from Wayne since it is such a large area with strong self-governing powers, and I-75 goes directly through it. As a charter township it could easily raise sell bonds to fund infrastructure expansions if it ever wants to do so.
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  #4030  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'd think airports usually are bad for residential desirability. Who wants to live near a giant airport? Chicago's favored quarter is North/West in spite of O'Hare. No one says move to Glencoe bc you might hear planes all day and night (assuming it's on a flight path). Airport-related jobs are typically very blue collar. It's probably great for warehousing, but who wants to live near trucks and warehouses?

Thinking of major cities, it seems most mega-airports are in not particularly desirable areas.
Yeah, they aren't. I think airports that are surrounded by development are ones that are located where they are for historical reasons. DTW became Detroit's primary airport precisely because Detroit City Airport was far too landlocked to ever handle large amounts of modern air traffic. Pretty much all newer airports are built in sparsely populated areas. Tokyo Narita, Denver International, London Gatwick, the new Istanbul Airport, etc.
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  #4031  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
I could be wrong here, but I think Detroit's airport is only recently a truly major airport. Cincinnati was Delta's number 2 hub after Atlanta, but when Delta and Northwest Airlines merged, Cincy lost the hub, and Detroit grew significantly. That's about the time the new terminal was built too, IIRC. Prior to that, I don't really remember DTW being a big deal.

Certainly seems like a different trajectory than O'Hare, which has always been one of America's biggest and most important airports. Maybe that helps to explain the differing land uses around each airport.
DTW didn't grow with the merger, it mostly plateaued in terms of traffic and decreased in relative importance compared to other major airports. Detroit was the primary hub for NWA for pretty much the entire history of the airline. NWA was also founded in Detroit, not Minneapolis. It moved to Minneapolis when it was purchased by a someone from Minnesota.
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  #4032  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't know the specifics, but Berlin Township is incorporated as a charter township on the Wayne County border. I suspect it is instrumental in blocking sprawl into the county from Wayne since it is such a large area with strong self-governing powers, and I-75 goes directly through it. As a charter township it could easily raise sell bonds to fund infrastructure expansions if it ever wants to do so.

That makes sense.

All the more power to 'em for standing pat and not caving to the great sprawl machine.

And in terms of collar county growth in metro Detroit, whatever Monroe is doing (or not doing) is working nonetheless.

All of the other counties that border Wayne saw decent growth last decade (for a stagnant old rust belt metro), but Monroe was more or less flat, and it remains the smallest by far.

County: 2020 population | growth

Wayne: 1,793,561 | -1.5%
Oakland: 1,274,395 | 6.0%
Macomb: 881,217 | 4.8%
Washtenaw: 372,258 | 8.0%
Monroe: 154,809 | 1.8%
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 8, 2023 at 12:35 PM.
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  #4033  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 7:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Hm, well idk then. Cincinnati's airport is also at the fringe of the metro, and has only recently started to become a real jobs cluster, as it's become one of the leading freight airports in the country. Pittsburgh's is also at the edge of its metro, and has little development around it. You could say the same about Dulles, up til about 15 years ago. I don't think Detroit's situation is as odd as you're making it out to be.
When Delta pulled out of Cincinnati, it freed up enormous capacity for freight. It is now the North American hub for both DHL and Amazon Prime Air. Also, the former Delta maintenance hangars are still there, and so the freight carriers are able to use it to service their fleets.

For several years, Amazon Prime Air operated in DHL's sort facility. This satellite image appears to show that time period:


It was a completely ridiculous setup. My former roommate who worked down there told me that Amazon installed its own scanners along all of DHL's conveyors and that at the appointed hour everything switched from one carrier to the other.
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  #4034  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2023, 11:45 PM
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It would be interesting to get a (county-based) population of the Great Lakes region. Determining the boundaries for that isn't easy though; using the basin for example wouldn't even take in DuPage County interestingly enough.
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  #4035  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 1:13 AM
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^ while Dupage does not lie within the GL basin (most of Chicagoland doesn't), the vast majority of Dupage people now drink lake michigan water.


Light blue is lake michigan water, the oranges are various groundwater sources.

Source: https://drinkingwater123.metroplanni...n-introduction


Chicagoland in general is a gray area with the two great basins of the interior laying so flat and close together, and with the reversing of the Chicago river eventually connecting them.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 12, 2023 at 12:26 PM.
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  #4036  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 3:49 AM
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FWIW, Wikipedia says the GL basin is home to 37M people.

But that doesn't include anything downstream on the St. Lawrence, just the basins of the 5 lakes themselves.

Montreal, Ottawa, QC and the rest of Quebec (at least the populated part) probably push the total St. Lawrence basin to ~45M.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 12, 2023 at 11:24 AM.
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  #4037  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 3:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
FWIW, Wikipedia says the GL basin is home to 37M people.

But that doesn't include anything downstream on the St. Lawrence, just the basins of the 5 lakes themselves.

Montreal, Ottawa, QC and the rest of Quebec (at least the populated part) probably push the total St. Lawrence basin to ~45M.
The St. Lawrence watershed is sort of funny in that it doesn't extend too far inland in many places.

That said, it captures 100% of Michigan's population, and probably 99% of Ontario and effectively 99% of Quebec (the only big population area other than QC not on this map is the Saguenay region, which flows into the Gulf of St. Lawrence, so maybe we can count it too).

So that alone is 33 million not including all of the other Great Lakes metros like Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Buffalo, etc.

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  #4038  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 5:22 PM
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So that alone is 33 million not including all of the other Great Lakes metros like Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Buffalo, etc.
As mentioned earlier, most of Chicagoland isn't in the GL's natural basin, and ever since the reversal of the river 120 years ago, almost none of it is in the GL basin today (just some immediate Lakeshore areas).

The line between the GL and Mississippi basins in chicagoland was pretty blurry to begin with, and the machinations of man over the past two centuries, mucking around with the area's waterways to navigably connect the two great interior watersheds, have only made that line even blurrier.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 13, 2023 at 12:47 AM.
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  #4039  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah, there's no way that a county like Monroe right next door to the most populous county in Michigan and with like 25 miles of Lake Erie shoreline stays as relatively undeveloped as it is if that shoreline was highly desirable.
the sw corner of monroe down to and around toledo is the shallowest end of lake erie, the shallowest great lake. its prone to swampy algae. the great black swamp history is around there after all. its not as desirable waterfront property as central or eastern lake erie. and there are also state waterfront parklands too because of this. another thing is unlike the rest of ohio’s bigger cities, toledo, to its credit, just didnt do sprawl, or until recently that is. i always admired that about toledo. big agri and farm culture is strong around nw ohio and i assume kept it at bay.
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  #4040  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 3:09 PM
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^I remember flying over that part of Lake Erie one summer and the algae bloom was massive. . . I was surprised at how much algae that part of the lake had. . . quite an impressive sight. . .

. . .
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