Irish Boston, Italian Philadelphia

[Docere]

NORC survey, ca. 1980:

English, Scottish, Welsh Protestant 83%, Catholic 8%
German Protestant 70%, Catholic 21%, Jewish 1%
Irish Protestant 55%, Catholic 37%
Italian Catholic 80%, Protestant 10%
Polish Catholic 72%, Protestant 12%, Jewish 12%
Scandinavian Protestant 85%, Catholic 10%

Source: Thomas Archdeacon, Becoming American (1984)

[Docere]

This paper may offer some clues on the ancestry question for Jews. The 1980 census didn't report on religious-based ancestry responses, but they did tally who did.

134,000 New Yorkers in 1980 gave only a religious-based response. Looking at the foreign-born in 1980, it's clear that NYC residents born in the USSR and Poland (and Israel obviously) were mostly Jewish. In 1980, there were Holocaust survivors and some pre-WWII immigrants still around.

https://www.bjpa.org/search-results/publication/2769

In L.A. County, you see similarly high shares of religious responses for those born in the USSR and Poland, but in Cook County the Polish-born population (not surprisingly) is overwhelmingly Catholic Poles.

About 12% of NYC Jews and maybe 8 or 9% of L.A. County and Cook County Jews gave religious only responses.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Most Persians and Syrians for example in the NYC area are Jewish as well. But among the 2 million Jews in the NYC area you'll find Jews with roots in pretty much any country where there are or were Jewish communities. Plus there's converts too and the offspring of mixed marriages.

A while ago, I recall you mentioning that among Iranian-origin immigrants, Jewish Persians dominate among the US population (e.g. California) but not among the Canadian ones. Interestingly you mention this is true of Syrians in NYC, is it the case for other US cities.

The trend that the proportion of Middle Eastern Jewish populations (Persian/Syrian Jews/maybe Israelis too?) to Middle Eastern non-Jewish ones is higher in the US than Canada.

Is this driven by selectivity/sponsorship etc. by different groups (the Muslim Persians/Syrians to Canada coming more as refugees than economic migrants vs. minority religious groups like Jews, maybe middle Eastern Christians sponsored by families/religious groups).

I mean, formally the US has nation quotas (but does not ask religious data of its immigrants, right?) so immigration policy has no way of selecting some religious groups, unless I'm wrong, so this is driven by the choices/economic options of the migrants or (private? personal?) sponsorship.

Since the Persian/Syrian, Jewish or not, population was small 1960s, I don't think there were disproportionately enough Persian Jewish people pre 1965 to sponsor their families to a much larger extent than their Canadian counterparts, did other factors attract them much more to the US than Canada?

Or is it just a byproduct of the US being a better immigration destination for any immigrant, period and Canada being second choice (plus the US already had higher % Jewish populations for them to feel more at home).

The fact that Jewish Mid-easterners (Mizrahi Jews etc.) are rare in Canada but proportionally common in the US didn't really cross my mind until I started reading your posts. It seems conversely I encounter even Christian Middle Easterners (e.g Lebanese Christians, Coptic Egyptians) more than Jewish ones in places like Toronto, but in the US I've met many Mizrahi Jews, Israelis but conversely relative to Canada, fewer explicitly identified Mid-eastern Christians (people with family roots like Ralph Nader), or maybe they're there but since the US is more explicitly dominated by Protestant Christians (with even Catholics being not mainstream), Orthodox (Mid eastern, and other) Christians in the US are easily overlooked.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

A while ago, I recall you mentioning that among Iranian-origin immigrants, Jewish Persians dominate among the US population (e.g. California) but not among the Canadian ones. Interestingly you mention this is true of Syrians in NYC, is it the case for other US cities.

Canada has less restrictive immigration laws, especially regarding geopolitically unfriendly states like Iran and Syria. So Canada will get proportionally more immigrants. Persians basically can't directly immigrate to the U.S. under normal circumstances. Almost every one I've met has come via Canada or another country.

Post-revolution, the Persian Jewish population mostly immigrated to the U.S. So there's a big Persian Jewish population in the U.S., originating from the late 70's and early 80's. But you don't have the big Muslim population, except for a few who got through via other countries and usually are doctors or some specialized occupation.

The Syrian Jewish population had a similar migration. As Syria transitioned to an ostensibly Islamic state, the Jews left. A huge proportion ended up in the Ocean Parkway neighborhood in Brooklyn. But later waves were restricted by immigration laws, so ended up in Canada. Same patterns in the other Middle Eastern states that used to have sizable Jewish populations. Egyptian Jews settled with the Syrians. A lot of the Moroccan and Tunisian Jews ended up in Paris. Most left due to increased political Islam.

Another cross-national difference is the Persians and Syrians in the U.S. tend to be more broadly successful. The Syrian Jewish community is wildly successful. The Persian Jews of Beverly Hills and Great Neck are similar, but in other industries.

Here's an older, but still relevant article about Syrian Jews in the U.S.:
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/m...syrians-t.html

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Canada has less restrictive immigration laws, especially regarding geopolitically unfriendly states like Iran and Syria. So Canada will get proportionally more immigrants. Persians basically can't directly immigrate to the U.S. under normal circumstances. Almost every one I've met has come via Canada or another country.

Post-revolution, the Persian Jewish population mostly immigrated to the U.S. So there's a big Persian Jewish population in the U.S., originating from the late 70's and early 80's. But you don't have the big Muslim population, except for a few who got through via other countries and usually are doctors or some specialized occupation.

The Syrian Jewish population had a similar migration. As Syria transitioned to an ostensibly Islamic state, the Jews left. A huge proportion ended up in the Ocean Parkway neighborhood in Brooklyn. But later waves were restricted by immigration laws, so ended up in Canada. Same patterns in the other Middle Eastern states that used to have sizable Jewish populations. Egyptian Jews settled with the Syrians. A lot of the Moroccan and Tunisian Jews ended up in Paris. Most left due to increased political Islam.

Another cross-national difference is the Persians and Syrians in the U.S. tend to be more broadly successful. The Syrian Jewish community is wildly successful. The Persian Jews of Beverly Hills and Great Neck are similar, but in other industries.

Here's an older, but still relevant article about Syrian Jews in the U.S.:
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/m...syrians-t.html

That's interesting, but I'm wondering how did the Jewish population get through the restrictions (did they come before the restrictions were stricter) or use other avenues -- e.g. high skill visas, asylum from persecution as minorities.

My question I guess is how Jewish members of these nations restricted by immigration policy in the US, but not so much Canada, pass the restrictions in a way the Muslim citizens of the same could not (just by arriving earlier post revolution, before tensions got bad or restrictions got placed more harshly?).

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

A while ago, I recall you mentioning that among Iranian-origin immigrants, Jewish Persians dominate among the US population (e.g. California) but not among the Canadian ones.

There's a sizeable Persian Jewish population in Beverly Hills and LA's West Side, but most Persians in California are not Jewish. Only 5% of Iranian Americans are Jewish.

The bulk live in California. The smaller number that live in the NYC area are mostly Jewish it seems.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

That's interesting, but I'm wondering how did the Jewish population get through the restrictions (did they come before the restrictions were stricter) or use other avenues -- e.g. high skill visas, asylum from persecution as minorities.

No clue, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Persian Jewish community had some sort of favored immigration status back then. The community is essentially gone from Iran, so there was probably no one left to immigrate by the mid-80's or so.

Originally Posted by Capsicum

My question I guess is how Jewish members of these nations restricted by immigration policy in the US, but not so much Canada, pass the restrictions in a way the Muslim citizens of the same could not (just by arriving earlier post revolution, before tensions got bad or restrictions got placed more harshly?).

Maybe Muslim Persians made it to Cali, post-revolution as there's a sizable Muslim Persian community there. I haven't met any non-Jewish Persians in the U.S. who didn't come via a third country, but they must exist. But again, they're rare outside of Cali, outside of a few Jewish enclaves, and a few specialized professionals. Americans are probably most likely to encounter Muslim Persians doctors, but not in other circumstances. My SIL is actually a Persian-American doctor who arrived via Canada. Her whole family left Iran and they're all in Ottawa or Toronto but her.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Only 5% of Iranian Americans are Jewish.

The bulk live in California. The smaller number that live in the NYC area are mostly Jewish it seems.

That sounds crazy low. Not disputing it, but sounds odd.

I'm trying to think if I've met a non-Jewish Persian-American who wasn't a doctor or some other specialized visa-type profession.

There's a great Persian restaurant and nearby cafe close to my apartment and I think the owners are (at least culturally) Muslim. So there's that. But they also display a bunch of dissident-type literature so I don't think they're "normal" immigrants.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

That's interesting, but I'm wondering how did the Jewish population get through the restrictions (did they come before the restrictions were stricter) or use other avenues -- e.g. high skill visas, asylum from persecution as minorities.

My question I guess is how Jewish members of these nations restricted by immigration policy in the US, but not so much Canada, pass the restrictions in a way the Muslim citizens of the same could not (just by arriving earlier post revolution, before tensions got bad or restrictions got placed more harshly?).

My guess: the Jewish community is organized and fought to let Jews in. That certainly happened with Jews in the Former Soviet Union too; there was the free Soviet Jewry campaign in the 1970s. Pre-1990 only Jews were really able to immigrate to North America (and Israel). It was only after the Soviet Union broke up that non-Jews immigrated to North America.

I don't know why Iranian Jews didn't really come to Canada. Canada has a lot of Jewish immigrants.

[Crawford]

From the NYT article, it looks like there was a more recent wave of Syrian Jewish newcomers to the U.S.:

In the early 1990s, President Hafez Assad of Syria allowed his country’s remaining Jews, numbering 6,000 or so, to emigrate on condition that they didn’t go to Israel. Naturally, they went to Brooklyn instead. The new SY’s, as they are called, provided the enclave with fresh faces and some old-country authenticity. In return they were given housing, free schooling and whatever assistance they needed to establish themselves. “They even got us lawyers to take care of the citizenship process,” a recent immigrant told me. “It’s not just the money. We came to the U.S. with some money. It was the way they took care of us as brothers.”

Another older NYT article on Brooklyn's SY community, this time focusing more on real estate:

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/r...ate/25cov.html

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Maybe Muslim Persians made it to Cali, post-revolution as there's a sizable Muslim Persian community there. I haven't met any non-Jewish Persians in the U.S. who didn't come via a third country, but they must exist.

I have known a couple of non-Jewish Persians whose families moved directly to the United States. I assume they came during or immediately after the revolution, though I don't know that for certain. I've also known some whose families did come from third countries, including Lebanon, oddly enough.

Wikipedia claims that Southern California's 700,000 Iranian-Americans constitutes the largest concentration of Iranians in the world outside of Iran.

[Docere]

This article claims that the Scots are not WASPs and that Southerners are Scottish and not English lol

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/most-...robinson-byrd/

[Quixote]

^ Aren't many Southerners Scots-Irish — the descendants of people from what is now Northern Ireland, who migrated from mostly Scotland and to a lesser extent Northern England?

Looking at genetic clusters, modern-day Lowland Scots have the most in common with those in Leinster and northern Munster. Modern-day Northern Irish are most closely related to Scots in North East, Fife & Kinross, Perthshire, and Highland and Moray as well as those in North East England, Cumbria, North Yorkshire, and East Riding of Yorkshire.

But the Scottish Highlands were invaded by the Irish (Gaels) in what is now Ulster a millennium prior.

It's really the southern half of England that is "Anglo-Saxon."

[Quixote]

Scots-Irish are Irish, Scottish, and British.

They're British by citizenship. Genetically, they have most in common with Northern Scots and Northern English, but their ancestors from the Middle Ages were Celtic tribes native to Ireland who colonized the western face of Scotland. In the 1600s, those who migrated from Scotland to Ulster were from the southern part of Scotland, which was still a Gaelic-speaking country. Today, southern Scots are essentially Irish.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Joe Bide isn't from or he doesn't have any ties to Philly in any way other than the fact that he's a Philly sports fan, and that's the only link! He grew up in Scranton as a kid before his family over to Delaware. And while he lives in New Castle County, he's not considered a Philadelphian, he just lives close enough to the city!

Biden's ties to Philadelphia, beyond spending a huge chink of his life in Wilmington, which is absolutely in the sphere of Philly, is also through his wife, Jill Biden.

She spent most her childhood in Willow Grove, which is just outside Philly.

But to the point of the thread, even though she was born in New Jersey, Jill Biden's maiden name is Jacobs, but was originally Giacoppo. I think she's actually the first Italian-American First Lady.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Scots-Irish are Irish, Scottish, and British.

They're British by citizenship. Genetically, they have most in common with Northern Scots and Northern English, but their ancestors from the Middle Ages were Celtic tribes native to Ireland who colonized the western face of Scotland. In the 1600s, those who migrated from Scotland to Ulster were from the southern part of Scotland, which was still a Gaelic-speaking country. Today, southern Scots are essentially Irish.

It's waaaaay more complex than that.

The first Scottish nation, Alba, was a joint kingdom of Gaels and Picts - both Celtic. This is in the 800s, and comes after Gaelic Dal Riata (which straddled the Scottish southwestern lowlands and a part of today's Ulster in Ireland) became Pictish suzerains in response to the Viking invasions of the 9th century. Dal Riata was founded - best guess based on Roman notes of the area - before 300 AD.

The Plantation of Ulster officially started in 1609.

Which means that some 1,300 years separated the partially-Gaelic colonizers who stole land in Ulster from their Irish-Gaelic ancestors. I say "partially" because by this point the Scottish southwestern lowlands were both genetically and culturally Anglicized - and under no circumstances considered themselves Irish. And because King James I also sent a whole bunch of southeastern Scotland English Border Reivers to Ulster, who were not Gaelic or even Scottish. Most were sent against their wishes too, it should be noted.

Scotch-Irish Americans have a much higher percentage of genealogy tracing back through the English Border Reiver group than they do through the Gaels from the southwest. Because they were English and not Scottish or Gaelic, they left Ulster for the New World largely as soon as possible; they never wanted to be relocated to Ireland in the first place and found it quite unwelcoming. Just miiiiight have had something to do with backlash for Cromwell and his Catholic genocide. Just maybe.

Point is, Scotch-Irish are English. They might have some Irish DNA (like most English do), but they never were culturally Irish, never wanted to be culturally Irish, and were present in Ireland for just 3-4 generations before moving on.

The Scots who remained in Ulster in large numbers were partially Gaels. They're the ones who make up all the Unionist parties today.

Tiocfaidh ár lá, 26 + 6 will always = 1.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Biden's ties to Philadelphia, beyond spending a huge chink of his life in Wilmington, which is absolutely in the sphere of Philly, is also through his wife, Jill Biden.

She spent most her childhood in Willow Grove, which is just outside Philly.

But to the point of the thread, even though she was born in New Jersey, Jill Biden's maiden name is Jacobs, but was originally Giacoppo. I think she's actually the first Italian-American First Lady.

We like to think of Wilmington as mainly separate from Philadelphia in a lot of ways. The state of Delaware is like its own metro area, really. There are connections between Wilmington and Philadelphia, but we consider places 90 minutes away like the Delaware beach towns to be part of "our area" more than Camden or Bucks County or Pottstown.

Delaware is a lot like North Jersey in a way. There are ties, but in day-to-day and cultural life, they are separate. Do people say that Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen are from New York City because the Census Bureau says their counties are part of the New York City MSA? Obviously, people say they are from New Jersey. Likewise, it's a one-way street, where maybe the Philly metro people claim northern Delaware as their own, but Delawareans don't extend the offering outward to everyone in the metro area.

This is even more true for a politician who represents a state. Biden was a Delaware senator, and once you cross a border, the locals are not your constituents. You still try to win them over, as politicians are wont to do, but New Jersey is maybe a mile or two farther away from Biden's house in Greenville than Pennsylvania is, and Maryland is maybe 5 more miles away as well.

Jill Biden having Philadelphia connections is much stronger.

[Docere]

A quote from a John Updike short story seems rather fitting: "The nuances of the regional Irish-Yankee feud [in Boston] escaped and amused Brad, since to his Midwestern eyes the two inimical camps were very similar - thin-skinned, clubby men from damp green islands."

[Docere]

Religion of Irish Americans from the 2014 General Social Survey

Northeast Catholic 64%, Protestant 25%
New England Catholic 75%, Protestant 12.5%
Mid-Atlantic Catholic 57%, Protestant 32%
Midwest Catholic 53%, Protestant 40%
South Catholic 72%, Catholic 20%
West Catholic 41%, Protestant 32%

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Scotch-Irish Americans have a much higher percentage of genealogy tracing back through the English Border Reiver group than they do through the Gaels from the southwest. Because they were English and not Scottish or Gaelic, they left Ulster for the New World largely as soon as possible; they never wanted to be relocated to Ireland in the first place and found it quite unwelcoming. Just miiiiight have had something to do with backlash for Cromwell and his Catholic genocide. Just maybe.

Point is, Scotch-Irish are English. They might have some Irish DNA (like most English do), but they never were culturally Irish, never wanted to be culturally Irish, and were present in Ireland for just 3-4 generations before moving on.

Present for just 3-4 generations before moving on to America?

3-4 generations in Ireland.... that's culturally Irish.