Ohioans wonder whether new rail line will be too slow, underutilized

[Busy Bee]

I have family around Solon southeast of Cleveland and that area is begging for a Cleveland to Youngstown rail connection. Commuter rail used to operate this corridor and it's all still right there waiting to be reactivated. This also presents the obvious potential for an alternative Cleveland-Pittsburgh via Youngstown fast passenger link. Ohio is a cultural bellwether. If you could get the public behind building out a modern rail network reconnecting these post-industrial metros, it could be an immense sea change for political support needed to do the same nationwide.

[Randomguy34]

^ Amtrak's November board meeting displayed a new map for routes that have received "Expressions of Interest". The new map displays Ohio with several new routes, with Columbus being a new hub that connects routes across the South, Midwest, and Northeast. The state is perfect for this much rail service, and it would be a shame if the governor thwarts any expansion.



Map: https://twitter.com/classicryan17/st...97857795514368

[jmecklenborg]

Market it by saying we're connecting our rural state universities (Miami, Bowling Green, OU) so students without cars have the option to travel to and from them.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Market it by saying we're connecting our rural state universities (Miami, Bowling Green, OU) so students without cars have the option to travel to and from them.

That will be sure way to guarantee the Republican legislature refuses to appropriate any money again for passenger rail. California thanks them, however.

[edale]

Ohio is back where it was in 2010(?). At that time, the Feds actually funded the 3C route, and the governor gave the money back, in a stunt to score points with the rural morons of the state, of which there are many. The Feds would be foolish to award Ohio money again for this, given the current Republican stranglehold in the statehouse.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Market it by saying we're connecting our rural state universities (Miami, Bowling Green, OU) so students without cars have the option to travel to and from them.

Don't do-nothing conservatives loath their liberal college towns?

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

Ohio is back where it was in 2010(?). At that time, the Feds actually funded the 3C route, and the governor gave the money back, in a stunt to score points with the rural morons of the state, of which there are many. The Feds would be foolish to award Ohio money again for this, given the current Republican stranglehold in the statehouse.

Kasich was much more of a stuntman than is Dewine. Remember, Kasich came back to Ohio in a plot to get Lehman Brothers to take over management of the state's public pensions. Dewine is *not* a Wall St. stooge and he's not a Tea Partier.

He is, however, testing the presidential waters, and so I'd say that alone will keep him from doing anything to move this along, at least in the short-term.

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Don't do-nothing conservatives loath their liberal college towns?

When I lived in Ohio I never got a hint of any disdain towards the college towns like Athens, Bowling Green, or Oxford. If anything, Ohioans seemed to view their colleges and towns with a sense of pride. Not sure these would be considered liberal college towns, per se, or at least I never thought of them in that way when I lived there.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by LAsam

When I lived in Ohio I never got a hint of any disdain towards the college towns like Athens, Bowling Green, or Oxford. If anything, Ohioans seemed to view their colleges and towns with a sense of pride. Not sure these would be considered liberal college towns, per se, or at least I never thought of them in that way when I lived there.

I agree. Athens (and Yellow Springs) are thought of more as harmless hippie towns than bastions of militant left-wing activity. Native-born hardcore leftists move out of Ohio when they turn 18 and never come back.

Looking at the physical trackwork in Hamilton Ohio, not only is there no turnout from the Oxford track toward Dayton, it doesn't appear that such a turn ever existed, which I find really hard to believe:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ha...!4d-84.5613355

Athens was once situated at the junction of several railroads, but now only the north/south line physically remains, and I recall reading that daily freight trains ceased a couple of years ago with the collapse of coal. This means the railroad could be used by passenger service without any conflict with freight movements. There is a tourist train with a cowboy robbery that operates out of Nelsonville on these tracks, and that's about it.

https://digital-collections.columbus.../maps/id/2058/

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by Randomguy34

^ Amtrak's November board meeting displayed a new map for routes that have received "Expressions of Interest". The new map displays Ohio with several new routes, with Columbus being a new hub that connects routes across the South, Midwest, and Northeast. The state is perfect for this much rail service, and it would be a shame if the governor thwarts any expansion.



Map: https://twitter.com/classicryan17/st...97857795514368

That's awesome.
See how easy it is to compliment other states instead of being furious?
Bigger map:

Hopefully all these lines could be HSR or electrified!

[edale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Looking at the physical trackwork in Hamilton Ohio, not only is there no turnout from the Oxford track toward Dayton, it doesn't appear that such a turn ever existed, which I find really hard to believe:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ha...!4d-84.5613355

God, I either forgot or didn't realize how rough parts of Hamilton look. There is so much abandonment and really rundown houses around the station, which itself is abandoned and in bad shape. At least it looks like the neighborhood is transitioning to Latino, as there are a few restaurants (including a Dominican restaurant oddly enough) and Mexican groceries/corner stores now. Maybe that will continue and the neighborhood will at least have a little more life. Rehabbing the train station and having quick rail connections to Cincinnati and Oxford would probably help this portion of Hamilton quite a bit. I really hope it happens.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

God, I either forgot or didn't realize how rough parts of Hamilton look.

The west side of Hamilton (across the river) is pretty fixed-up. The east side (site of the link) is pretty rough, with tons of drug activity, but a lot of people are moving there and rehabbing houses. The non-stop demolitions have ceased.

[edale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The west side of Hamilton (across the river) is pretty fixed-up. The east side (site of the link) is pretty rough, with tons of drug activity, but a lot of people are moving there and rehabbing houses. The non-stop demolitions have ceased.

That's great to hear. The last time I was in Hamilton several years ago, the downtown area was looking really good. And I know there are some really nice neighborhoods on the west side of the city. I have some family friends who lived in this pretty, historic neighborhood on the west side of Hamilton, but I didn't realize how bad the east side was. Hope the rehab continues there. Hamilton is a cool little outpost of urbanity amidst the mind numbing sprawl of Butler County.

[Randomguy34]

Is Ohio finally on board for Amtrak expansion? State ‘strongly considering’ seeking federal money for new train service

The state of Ohio is “strongly considering” applying for federal dollars that could lead to expanded passenger rail service throughout the state, including establishment of a new route connecting Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

Meanwhile, officials in Northeast Ohio are definitely planning to pursue funding that could establish Cleveland as an Amtrak mini-hub, with more frequent service to Chicago, New York City, Washington, D.C. and other cities.
....
But up until recently, Gov. Mike DeWine has been lukewarm in his support for expanded rail service in Ohio, questioning the cost and potential ridership of any new service along what’s referred to as the 3C+D corridor, linking Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

Dan Tierney, the governor’s spokesman, said Friday that funding from the new federal program would help Ohio determine answers to those questions, even before a firm state financial commitment is required. Indeed, the first two phases of the new Corridor ID program include funding for studying any new and existing routes.

“It will help us gather more information to make an informed decision,” said Tierney. “We’re strongly considering it.”

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/...n-service.html

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Randomguy34

^ Amtrak's November board meeting displayed a new map for routes that have received "Expressions of Interest". The new map displays Ohio with several new routes, with Columbus being a new hub that connects routes across the South, Midwest, and Northeast. The state is perfect for this much rail service, and it would be a shame if the governor thwarts any expansion.



Map: https://twitter.com/classicryan17/st...97857795514368

vague displays of interest are fine, but if there is one thing that will shoot down all new rail in ohio its that ridiculous map of bloated lines to nowhere.

they need to just stick with the 3C’s.

in other words, something reasonable.

come on this is practical ohio.

they dont waste billions on calatrava bird skeleton stations.

or rail lines to … chillicothe??

and all the other wingnut lines out of columbus for that matter that arent 3C.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I have family around Solon southeast of Cleveland and that area is begging for a Cleveland to Youngstown rail connection. Commuter rail used to operate this corridor and it's all still right there waiting to be reactivated. This also presents the obvious potential for an alternative Cleveland-Pittsburgh via Youngstown fast passenger link. Ohio is a cultural bellwether. If you could get the public behind building out a modern rail network reconnecting these post-industrial metros, it could be an immense sea change for political support needed to do the same nationwide.

needless to say there was a cleveland to youngstown commuter rail service, but it ended in 1977.

there was a serious preferred plan to restart cle commuter rail in the oughties, but it was shot down by far leftie dennis kucinich of all people who said it would be too noisey (!) so it was politically stopped cold after 5yrs of study and planning. but anyway solon would have been on the initial route — see below (and ya gotta love those 2001 era costs,eh?):


2001 Northeast Ohio Commuter Rail Feasibility Study (NEORail) - by Parsons Brinckerhoff, Ohio for NOACA

Description:
This study was initiated in 1996 to identify the operational, institutional, financial, and political feasibility of a Northeast Ohio commuter rail system. The following nine counties comprised the study area: Ashtabula, Cuyahoga, Geauga, Lake, Lorain, Medina, Portage, Stark and Summit.
Initial study goals were to:

I. Provide a cost-effective transportation option
II. Reduce congestion on the region's highways
III. Improve the region's environment
IV. Reduce future demand for new highway investment
V. Advance regional policies on growth and development
VI. Increase access to jobs by workers and the transit-dependent

Details/Assumptions:
The network identified by this study assumed a downtown rail terminus near the existing Amtrak station on Cleveland's lakefront, consistent with RTA's North Coast Transportation Center. Over 15 alternative alignments were initially studied. After substantial analysis, it was determined that the network that would best achieve the region's development and mobility goals in a cost-effective manner was comprised of four routes within existing freight railroad corridors:

1. Lake West corridor to Lorain (via Norfolk Southern right of way)
2. Lake East corridor to Painesville and Ashtabula County (CSX)
3. Southeast corridor to Aurora and Mantua (Norfolk Southern), and
4. South corridor to Akron and Canton via Hudson (Norfolk Southern)

Based upon study findings, the study technical oversight committee recommended implementing the network in phases with coordinated through-service, i.e. not all trains terminating in downtown Cleveland (all costs are in 2000 $s):

Tier 1 Near-Term - Lake West and Southeast corridors
(6,600 daily trips, $296 million capital cost, $10.5 million annual operating cost & $7.1 million annual operating subsidy)

Tier 2 Mid-Term - Lake East and South corridors
(7,000 daily trips, $547 million capital cost, $21.1 million annual operating cost & $16.5 annual operating subsidy)

Tier 3 Long-Term - Elyria to Cleveland, Medina to Cleveland, Canton to Akron, and Kent to Cleveland ( 6,000 daily trips, $800 million capital cost, $31.6 million annual operating cost, and $23.6 million annual operating subsidy).
(Tier 3 would also include service frequency upgrades on selected Tier I and II lines.)

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

or rail lines to … chillicothe??

There are almost zero trains on the line to Athens now, since coal isn't being brought up from West Virginia on it anymore. They could start running old Amtrak equipment on it tomorrow since there is likely no need to build even a single physical upgrade other than platforms.

It might be the same with Chillicothe. That line continues south to Portsmouth, where there is a big bridge over the river to West Virgnia. Again, I suspect that coal traffic has diminished considerably.

The line between Cincinnati and Portsmouth still physically exists, but about 20 miles of it was abandoned in the late 1990s and would require significant upgrades to be brought back online. The active part is getting a significant new customer, a pet food factory.

The better way to access Athens from Cincinnati would be to pass through Chillicothe. It would use the line that passes through the eastern Cincinnati suburbs (the line that goes right through DT Loveland) and it only has about four trains per day. Again, plenty of capacity for passenger rail without expensive upgrades.

[BigDipper 80]

Originally Posted by edale

God, I either forgot or didn't realize how rough parts of Hamilton look. There is so much abandonment and really rundown houses around the station, which itself is abandoned and in bad shape. At least it looks like the neighborhood is transitioning to Latino, as there are a few restaurants (including a Dominican restaurant oddly enough) and Mexican groceries/corner stores now. Maybe that will continue and the neighborhood will at least have a little more life. Rehabbing the train station and having quick rail connections to Cincinnati and Oxford would probably help this portion of Hamilton quite a bit. I really hope it happens.

The train station was recently moved and will be rehabbed soon (hopefully). If Spooky Nook becomes the slam-dunk for sports events like Hamilton is betting on, we'll start seeing a lot more rehabs in that city, I think.

[BigDipper 80]

Ultimately I'm not sure if it'll make a political difference with the way Baby Boomers have such a grip on the Statehouse, but every Ohioan I talk to under the age of 35 is practically begging for non-car connections between the major cities. Columbus has become more and more of a day trip destination for millennials and Gen Z in the other C's and Dayton, and most people I know hate slogging through cornfields and dealing with parking in the Short North and would prefer to just be dropped off downtown (especially after a night of drinking).

[Busy Bee]

Can a mod change the title of this thread to something less stupid that actually reflects the conversation we're having here? Something like "Ohio Intercity Rail Development" would suffice.