Great Lakes Cities

[Steely Dan]

^ yeah , Detroit could've annexed over county lines, I guess (though I'm guessing that by the '50s that would've been DOA in southern Oakland/Macomb counties).

But my point about the unfortunate location of 8 mile had more to do with it separating metro Detroit's core county from all of its extensive suburbia to the immediate north of the city.

If (as in Cook county's case) 15 mile road had been the Wayne - Oakland/Macomb border instead of 8 mile, there would be absolutely zero debate today about whether Wayne or Oakland was the alpha county of the MSA.

Originally Posted by sentinel

Does anyone have a list/visuals of the largest cruise ships that float around the Great Lakes?

Here you go.

These are the 10 ships with scheduled great lakes cruise itineraries this summer:


vessel (company) -------------------- length - tonnage - #pax

1. Viking Octantis (Viking) ---------------- 673' -- 30,150 -- 378
2. Viking Polaris (Viking) ------------------ 673' -- 30,150 -- 378
3. Hanseatic Inspiration (Happag-Lloyd) - 455' -- 15,650 -- 230
4. Hamburg (Plantours) ------------------- 473' -- 15,070 -- 420
5. Le Bellot - (Ponant) --------------------- 431' -- 10,000 -- 184
6. Le Dumont-d'Urville - (Ponant) --------- 431' -- 10,000 -- 184
7. Ocean Explorer (Vantage) --------------- 343' --- 8,230 -- 162
8. Pearl Mist (Pearl Seas) ------------------- 325' --- 5,110 -- 210
9. Ocean Navigator (American Queen) ----- 300' --- 4,950 -- 202
10. Ocean Voyager (American Queen) ------ 300' --- 4,950 -- 202

[Blitz]

Saw the Viking Octantis sailing past Windsor a couple of weeks ago...huge ship.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Blitz

Saw the Viking Octantis sailing past Windsor a couple of weeks ago...huge ship.

In fact, she's the hugest passenger ship to ever sail upon the freshwater of our giant inland seas, along with her sister Viking Polaris.

Too bad that cruises upon them are only for the rich.

[Steely Dan]

going back to detroit suburbia, i've always wondered why the sprawl has such a strong northward bias, especially when considering that DTW is at the extreme SW edge of the Urban Area.

usually, airports seem to be economic engines that attract suburban development in their general direction, but that doesn't seem to be the case in detroit.

comparing UA maps with chicagoland, we can easily see how ORD sits right in the thick of the great NW sprawl\. it's actually one of drivers of all that sprawl.

in fact, the relative imbalance in economic growth in chicagoland is one of the main reasons why south surbuban leaders in southern cook and will counties have been angling for decades now for a 3rd major airport down there.

[benp]

I recently posted a thread focusing on Buffalo's gardens and greenery in My City Photos and received a comment back that the responder never knew about Dutch Elm disease impacts of 50 years ago when Buffalo was pretty decimated. For example, the Olmsted Parkways were bare of trees for years, but finally in the most recent decades the new trees have grown enough to mostly regain the parkway's grandness. While many areas of the city have recovered immensely, the street canopy may never be fully restored, but that's not entirely through lack of trying.

To me, Dutch Elm was such a big deal, I was surprised that someone was unaware that it occurred. The fact that I and many other remember when city streets looked like cathedral ceilings may have negatively affected views about "what was lost" in the city for decades after the trees were gone. And now, over 2 generations have never experienced a full tree canopy, or sometimes few trees at all, and it may also color their views on cities as being more barren than many of us older folks remember.

Anyway, did any Great Lakes cities escape the decimation, perhaps by not being as elm dependent? How have the recoveries gone, hit or miss? Success? Failure?

Also, have any other cities developed a city-centric gardening culture similar to Buffalo's, or is it mainly a suburban thing where you live?

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by benp

Anyway, did any Great Lakes cities escape the decimation, perhaps by not being as elm dependent? How have the recoveries gone, hit or miss? Success? Failure?

Also, have any other cities developed a city-centric gardening culture similar to Buffalo's, or is it mainly a suburban thing where you live?

Chicago mostly had a canopy of maple and ash trees on its streets. However, it was a major problem for the forest preserves back in the 1970s. Emerald Ash borer is the current concern, but the city tries to limit arboreal monocultures as a matter of policy.

Mulberry, Buckthorn and Tree of Heaven are invasive trees.


As for gardening culture, Chicago originally wanted to be known as “The Garden City” and the city motto is still “Urbs in Horto: City in a Garden”

Wildflower prairie plants are the most fashionable, though I wouldn’t say there’s an actual gardening style.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

going back to detroit suburbia, i've always wondered why the sprawl has such a strong northward bias, especially when considering that DTW is at the extreme SW edge of the Urban Area.

usually, airports seem to be economic engines that attract suburban development in their general direction, but that doesn't seem to be the case in detroit.

comparing UA maps with chicagoland, we can easily see how ORD sits right in the thick of the great NW sprawl\. it's actually one of drivers of all that sprawl.

in fact, the relative imbalance in economic growth in chicagoland is one of the main reasons why south surbuban leaders in southern cook and will counties have been angling for decades now for a 3rd major airport down there.

Wayne County is, by far, the most built out county in Michigan. It is more than twice as dense as Oakland County, so I wouldn't say that sprawl hasn't gone west at all. There's just nothing left in Wayne County to develop.

Going farther west into Washtenaw County is also historically expensive because of Ann Arbor. The creation of the Ann Arbor greenbelt has pretty much stopped all Detroit sprawl from going into Washtenaw County.

[Crawford]

The Metro Detroit sprawl goes west/northwest, really. Not as much directly north. The biggest cluster of sprawl is west/northwest along I-96. Most booming exurbs are places like South Lyon. I'm pretty sure that area has the highest concentration of new housing and sprawly crap.

But the metro extends very far to the north, because Pontiac, which used to be a very important city with half of Oakland County's population (and is now essentially irrelevant) was built out before WW2, and Pontiac spawned its own postwar white flight auto worker suburbs, places like Waterford. All that sprawl junk merged with the main Detroit sprawl, but there isn't much beyond it. All the lakes and twisty roads make it hard to do largescale sprawl, so it's more like houses around lakes, and then just spotty growth.

Then there's more sprawl to the east, in Macomb, where everything is flat and easy to convert to some of the ugliest sprawl in existence. Macomb sprawl is generally more downscale.

Downriver has barely any sprawl. The area around the airport is very undesirable. Lots of industrial use, pollution, landfills, etc.

[mrnyc]

he saw a ghost ship on lake superior --


https://youtube.com/shorts/OOSReON2kIU?feature=share

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The Metro Detroit sprawl goes west/northwest, really. Not as much directly north. The biggest cluster of sprawl is west/northwest along I-96. Most booming exurbs are places like South Lyon. I'm pretty sure that area has the highest concentration of new housing and sprawly crap.

I think Macomb has slightly edged out far western Oakland for new exurban sprawl. Despite being about 65% of Oakland County's population in 2000, Macomb has added more people than Oakland over the past two decades (+93k vs 80k).

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

he saw a ghost ship on lake superior --


https://youtube.com/shorts/OOSReON2kIU?feature=share

Yeah, that’s a mirage.

Michiganders always get to have some visual fun when Chicago starts flying on the horizon.







Chicago Mirage from St Joseph, MI
https://youtu.be/tNDwlWPWLCw


It’s probably where the old legends of floating cities in the sky (Laputa) come from.

[jmecklenborg]

There is something called the Michigan Coast-to-Coast, which is a 200-mile bicycle race from Lake Huron to Lake Michigan. I've wanted to do it for many years but I always seem to have a conflict like a wedding or something like that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBi2xcPtHkg

[subterranean]

Some people not from Michigan may not realize that the highway infrastructure is so overbuilt that a large number of people commute to Metro Detroit from way outside the region.

When I worked in Lansing for almost a decade, I had dozens of coworkers during that time who lived in Greater Lansing and had spouses who worked in Metro Detroit. I, myself, lived in Lansing and worked in New Center 2 days per week for a couple of years. Williamston, Michigan to Southfield is an hour (62 miles). Saginaw to Troy is about an hour and 10 minutes (81 miles). Howell to downtown Detroit is about an hour. Lapeer to downtown Detroit is about an hour. Port Huron to Royal Oak is about an hour.

It's certainly not ideal, but I think an over-abundance of high-capacity highways combined with a periodically terrible economy has made this type of commute prevalent and bedroom communities widespread.

That type of thing is much less common out here in Oregon. I used to commute from Downtown Portland to a suburb 17 miles away and it would almost take me an hour each way. But then again, we have people who militantly oppose highway expansions.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Yeah, that’s a mirage.

Michiganders always get to have some visual fun when Chicago starts flying on the horizon.







Chicago Mirage from St Joseph, MI
https://youtu.be/tNDwlWPWLCw


It’s probably where the old legends of floating cities in the sky (Laputa) come from.

don’t be so sure, but zoicks those meddling kids will get to the bottom of it —

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Chicago mostly had a canopy of maple and ash trees on its streets. However, it was a major problem for the forest preserves back in the 1970s. Emerald Ash borer is the current concern, but the city tries to limit arboreal monocultures as a matter of policy.

we went rogue and planted a black oak sapling in our parkway without a citty permit a couple weekends ago. it's all good though as black oaks are native, and pretty fucking hardy once they get going.

2 other neighbors on our block have done the same with black oak saplings. some environmental group was handing them out at a recent river bank clean-up event over by us, encouraging people to plant them here in the neighborhood.

they're not much now (only a foot tall at the moment), but if all goes well, there wil be some pretty damn impressive big old oak trees on our block by the close of this century.


as the old chinese proverb goes:

when is the best time to plant a tree?

20 years ago



and for oaks, you gotta play a really long multi-generational game.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Wayne County is, by far, the most built out county in Michigan. It is more than twice as dense as Oakland County, so I wouldn't say that sprawl hasn't gone west at all. There's just nothing left in Wayne County to develop.

SW wayne beyond DTW still looks like it has plenty of land left for sprawlburban development.


this is wayne county ~20 miles SW of downtown detroit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1584...!1e3?entry=ttu



and this is oakland county ~35 miles NW of downtown detroit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7719...!1e3?entry=ttu



there seems to be a pretty strong northern bias to metro detroit sprawl.

made all the worse by 8 mile's relatively close-in county divide.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

we went roque and planted a black oak sapling in our parkway without a citty permit a couple weekends ago. it's all good though as black oaks are native, and pretty fucking hardy once they get going.

2 other neighbors on our block have done the same with black oak saplings. some environmental group was handing them out at a recent river bank clean-up event over by us, encouraging people to plant them here in the neighborhood.

they're not much now (only a foo tall at the moment), but if all goes well, there wil be some pretty damn impressive big old oak trees on our block by the close of this century.


as the old chinese proverb goes:

when is the best time to plant a tree?

20 years ago



and for oaks, you gotta play a really long multi-generational game.

Not rogue, but there are still a handful of monster size elm trees here and there that survived Dutch Elm, and one in my neighborhood spreads seeds yearly that pop up like weeds inside hedges and along fences. A couple trees sprang up along the fence line with my neighbor, and one of them has reached about 25 feet tall and shades our yard. Technically it's not on my property, but we get the benefit, and fingers crossed it survives as well as the big old tree around the corner.

Our street tree that replaced the original elm is a Norway Maple, and after 50 years it never grew beyond about 20 feet and it has never come close to the elm it replaced. Along the Olmsted Parkways, the more tolerant Christine Buisman Elm were planted to replace the elms lost to the disease, while a variety of trees were planted on other city streets.

The city has guidelines on acceptable trees, and will take citizen requests to plant suitable trees in front of homes where none exist at no charge, although there may be a prioritization and a waiting list for some locations.

[Steely Dan]

^ one of the reasons that i was so excited to plant the black oak sapling that we got is because over on our kids' school property a block south of us, there are still two GIGANTIC old black oak trees from the before times still going strong.

the school brought in a tree expert to study the two of them, and they came back with an estimate of around 250 years old for each of them, or roughly the same age as our nation, and from a time before there were any european settlers in the area, just virgin wilderness.

i walk by those two majestic oaks all the time and just marvel at their splendor. their trunks are just ridiculously massive.

i like to think that our tiny little oak sapling might be blessed with such a fate of standing as a proud sentinel over the neighborhood 250 years from now.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ one of the reasons that i was so excited to plant the black oak sapling that we got is because over on our kids' school property a block south of us, there are still two GIGANTIC old black oak trees from the before times still going strong.

the school brought in a tree expert to study the two of them, and they came back with an estimate of around 250 years old for each of them, or roughly the same age as our nation, and from a time before there were any european settlers in the area, just virgin wilderness.

i walk by those two majestic oaks all the time and just marvel at their splendor. their trunks are just ridiculously massive.

i like to think that our tiny little oak sapling might be blessed with such a fate of standing as a proud sentinel over the neighborhood 250 years from now.

Per the plaque placed in 1960, this sycamore in the Allentown neighborhood of Buffalo was estimated to be over 250 years old, and now still going strong.

Oldest Tree by bpawlik, on Flickr

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

SW wayne beyond DTW still looks like it has plenty of land left for sprawlburban development.


this is wayne county ~20 miles SW of downtown detroit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1584...!1e3?entry=ttu



and this is oakland county ~35 miles NW of downtown detroit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7719...!1e3?entry=ttu



there seems to be a pretty strong northern bias to metro detroit sprawl.

made all the worse by 8 mile's relatively close-in county divide.

That's really the only pocket of Wayne County with farmland. Keep in mind that Oakland County has about 30% more land than Wayne in total. Excluding the city of Detroit, Oakland has about twice the land.

Both counties are contiguously developed going from the city, but Wayne didn't have enough space to keep support the sprawl machine as Oakland did. Ann Arbor is roughly 35 miles west of downtown Detroit, to set the perspective.