New York City - Transit News

[Alon]

Secaucus is where the infrastructure is. Pointless to talk about where the office jobs are moving when it's illegal to build high-density office buildings near Secaucus Junction due to zoning. Move the railyards and the storage facilities somewhere that's not as close to Manhattan by transit and build it up. Ideally you'd want to eventually map streets connecting to the residential part of Secaucus today; there are a few km in between, mostly far from the station, but at least part of that in between area is still near the NEC and they could open another station there serving local traffic; the cost of four-tracking everything up to the tunnel portal to avoid conflicts with intercity trains is by ARC standards a rounding error.

Or the region could spend $13 billion on avoiding Secaucus. Why not?

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Alon

Secaucus is where the infrastructure is. Pointless to talk about where the office jobs are moving when it's illegal to build high-density office buildings near Secaucus Junction due to zoning. Move the railyards and the storage facilities somewhere that's not as close to Manhattan by transit and build it up. Ideally you'd want to eventually map streets connecting to the residential part of Secaucus today; there are a few km in between, mostly far from the station, but at least part of that in between area is still near the NEC and they could open another station there serving local traffic; the cost of four-tracking everything up to the tunnel portal to avoid conflicts with intercity trains is by ARC standards a rounding error.

Or the region could spend $13 billion on avoiding Secaucus. Why not?

They were going to build High Density Office space back in the earlier days of the JCT but that fell through.... I'm not saying move the yards , but the area is slowly become vacant industrial wise....and commercial wise between Tax incentives and consolidations companies are moving to Newark....and Elizabeth... The plans are to slowly rezone and build TOD in all the areas down there , but its going to be messy and dead unlike nearby Harrison or Jersey City which has pedestrian flow on every street. These developments will most likely form a commuter town....just without the vibrant pulse. By 2030 all that area will be TOD without a Doubt , it be nice if they extend the HBLR from Tonnelle Ave down through Secaucus to JCT and back to Hoboken Terminal via Journal SQ that would really help the area.

As for 4 tracking , that would come with the Gateway Project , and is needed....in the morning Amtrak and everyone crawls....with 4 tracking Amtrak would speed through although Secaucus's weird design might make that hard...but still faster then today. They already started clearing a path for the new ROW.... 4 tracking along with an upgraded Kearny JCT which was never fully built , will allow for more M&E trains to enter the NEC without messy up the schedule. In the Morning if your on the M&E you have to wait for NEC trains to clear , although this applies to any time of day. Sometimes takes up to 10 mins before you can merge onto the NEC. All the plans call for using current ROW through Secaucus not around it...unless i read wrong....

High Rise Proposals



http://galaxyrising.com/index.php?/t...n_in_secaucus/

TOD...

http://policy.rutgers.edu/vtc/tod/ne...ecaucusMAP.pdf

[Alon]

Those towers look like one of the TODs around the lesser-used SkyTrain stations here. Sorry. Around the more heavily used stations, this is possible with a town center created from scratch at the same time SkyTrain opened. Only Secaucus should plan on doing this on larger scale, first because New York is bigger than Vancouver, and second because New York has very few places where this TOD intensity can be done without needing to spend tons of money on one tunnel.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Its Interesting you would chose Newark instead of Long Island City , is that due to the flooding.... Newark , Downtown Brooklyn and Midtown are the only flood proof CBDs in the region....

No we chose LIC for MTA access, proximity to LGA/JFK, it's growth prospects, and environment. We looked at Newark, Jersey City, Brooklyn, and LIC. Newark ended up at the bottom of the list even though it was the best deal financially by far.

[J. Will]

I can't see Secaucus Junction getting any kind of development until there is some sort of all-day frequent transit service, even if the zoning allowed it.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by J. Will

I can't see Secaucus Junction getting any kind of development until there is some sort of all-day frequent transit service, even if the zoning allowed it.

There is service every 10-20mins all day to NYC and Hoboken every 10-30mins along with Bus Service.

[J. Will]

Even if that were true, it's hardly "frequent". It's not quite true though. Scheduled mid-day weekday headways reach as high as 34 minutes to NYC, and as high as 56 minutes to Hoboken.

Anyways, when I saw frequent I'm talking no more than 12-15 minutes at the VERY MOST to NYC. That's the kind of frequency that attracts dense TODs.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by J. Will

Even if that were true, it's hardly "frequent". It's not quite true though. Scheduled mid-day weekday headways reach as high as 34 minutes to NYC, and as high as 56 minutes to Hoboken.

Anyways, when I saw frequent I'm talking no more than 12-15 minutes at the VERY MOST to NYC. That's the kind of frequency that attracts dense TODs.

Mid day trains are half full....not packed like Rush hr there's no demand for extra trains nor space. The Gateway will allow for more trains to be added , currently during the down times Amtrak takes full advantage of that and sends its trains up... Theres also a bus which no one uses , that comes every 10-15mins....most of the day , it goes into the Industrial areas before heading along Route 3 to the PABT. There are high density developments going up in Stamford , White Plains , New Brunswick , Newark , Harrison....frequency doesn't mean anything in this region although on the branch system developers are afraid to invest intill upgrades are done. But for the most part as long as its hourly offpeak and bi-directional developers don't seem to care nor do commuters as trains are half full....sometimes near empty...

[J. Will]

Even if there was demand, where is there room to build a walkable TOD (walkable meaning not only within the TOD itself, but to/from the train station):

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Secau...ew+Jersey&z=16

The station is hemmed in by a freeway, freeway ramps, and marshland

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Secau...ew+Jersey&z=18

That parking lot is the only obvious place.

[Alon]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Mid day trains are half full....not packed like Rush hr there's no demand for extra trains nor space. The Gateway will allow for more trains to be added , currently during the down times Amtrak takes full advantage of that and sends its trains up... Theres also a bus which no one uses , that comes every 10-15mins....most of the day , it goes into the Industrial areas before heading along Route 3 to the PABT. There are high density developments going up in Stamford , White Plains , New Brunswick , Newark , Harrison....frequency doesn't mean anything in this region although on the branch system developers are afraid to invest intill upgrades are done. But for the most part as long as its hourly offpeak and bi-directional developers don't seem to care nor do commuters as trains are half full....sometimes near empty...

If they can squeeze 22 tph at rush hour not including Amtrak, they can squeeze 6 tph midday. It's actually better for capacity utilization because those trains don't need to sit in yards in constrained CBDs.

Ridership on hourly off-peak trains isn't a good gauge of ridership on usable trains. There's no development there. Might as well tell me that there's no off-peak service on the West Coast Express at all, so why bother investing in slower rapid transit to Port Moody and Coquitlam? And yet once the trains are usable by people who aren't suburban peak-hour commuters, they're more usable, and ridership projections say the slower Evergreen Line will get 70,000 daily passengers vs. 11,000 on the (longer, faster) West Coast Express.

Frequency means everything, everywhere. Stamford and White Plains are getting a trickle compared to what Brooklyn is getting, and don't even compare well with secondary rapid transit-oriented centers in Vancouver. Again, look at Metrotown.

[sbarn]

Who cares about train headways? The real question is why would want to live or work in Secaucus?

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by J. Will

Even if there was demand, where is there room to build a walkable TOD (walkable meaning not only within the TOD itself, but to/from the train station):

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Secau...ew+Jersey&z=16

The station is hemmed in by a freeway, freeway ramps, and marshland

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Secau...ew+Jersey&z=18

That parking lot is the only obvious place.

I'm not advocating TOD there.....and its for those reasons and the whole flooding issue.... Any site , TOD or not fills up fast near Rail Stations in this region as long as there's direct access to Manhattan or an Job hub like Newark , Stamford , White Plains. The site across from the station has done very well , 80% leased last time I checked but this was before Sandy....developers and renters have been leaving flood prone areas....or shifting plans around.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by sbarn

Who cares about train headways? The real question is why would want to live or work in Secaucus?

Most of the People who live in Secaucus live near Route 3 in the residential area in the Northern part of the city. Secaucus was a huge Industrial/Commercial hub employing tens of thousands at its peak years ago but now thats shifting to Newark. So you have all these crazy TOD proposals which after Sandy no one is going to want to live down there along with it being isolated.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Alon

If they can squeeze 22 tph at rush hour not including Amtrak, they can squeeze 6 tph midday. It's actually better for capacity utilization because those trains don't need to sit in yards in constrained CBDs.

Ridership on hourly off-peak trains isn't a good gauge of ridership on usable trains. There's no development there. Might as well tell me that there's no off-peak service on the West Coast Express at all, so why bother investing in slower rapid transit to Port Moody and Coquitlam? And yet once the trains are usable by people who aren't suburban peak-hour commuters, they're more usable, and ridership projections say the slower Evergreen Line will get 70,000 daily passengers vs. 11,000 on the (longer, faster) West Coast Express.

Frequency means everything, everywhere. Stamford and White Plains are getting a trickle compared to what Brooklyn is getting, and don't even compare well with secondary rapid transit-oriented centers in Vancouver. Again, look at Metrotown.

Well White Plains growth has slowed to small infill , Stamford ,Harrison, Norwalk , New Brunswick , Newark and Yonkers have quite a few projects underway or to break ground later this year. Stamford has at least 4 cranes up at the current time another 6 projects will break ground by summer , same with Harrison.... As for the Rail itself , most of the Satilite cities are 10-20 miles outside NYC , would NYC service make sense out their? They already have 4-8 trains per hr....I think thats enough...

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Alon

If they can squeeze 22 tph at rush hour not including Amtrak, they can squeeze 6 tph midday. It's actually better for capacity utilization because those trains don't need to sit in yards in constrained CBDs.

Part of the problem is that the headways are not consistent, which is partly a result of interlining between Secaucus and Penn. There might be two trains 6 minutes apart, then 28 minutes between the next two. If there could be one train in each direction exactly every 12 minutes midday, that would be better than the staggered lines as they stand.

As for Stamford, White Plains, etc., those are the downtowns of good sized cities on their own right, and are their own regional draws. That is not what the term "TOD" is usually used to describe. That's like calling Lower Manhattan a "TOD".

[Alon]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Well White Plains growth has slowed to small infill , Stamford ,Harrison, Norwalk , New Brunswick , Newark and Yonkers have quite a few projects underway or to break ground later this year. Stamford has at least 4 cranes up at the current time another 6 projects will break ground by summer , same with Harrison.... As for the Rail itself , most of the Satilite cities are 10-20 miles outside NYC , would NYC service make sense out their? They already have 4-8 trains per hr....I think thats enough...

White Plains has 3 tph off-peak with terrible connectivity to destinations in New York that aren't Grand Central or East Harlem, and that's less than enough for dense infill. 4 cranes? In Vancouver that'd be considered a failure.

Secaucus, meanwhile, is not 10-20 miles outside the city. It's 5 miles. It's the same distance to Manhattan as central Queens, where riders abandoned the LIRR's hourly service in favor of the subway in the 1920s, forcing station closures.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Alon

White Plains has 3 tph off-peak with terrible connectivity to destinations in New York that aren't Grand Central or East Harlem, and that's less than enough for dense infill. 4 cranes? In Vancouver that'd be considered a failure.

Secaucus, meanwhile, is not 10-20 miles outside the city. It's 5 miles. It's the same distance to Manhattan as central Queens, where riders abandoned the LIRR's hourly service in favor of the subway in the 1920s, forcing station closures.

3 an hr , is all right , they do plan on bumping that to 4-6 an hr...I think by this summer... This area is just taking off again , so 4 cranes per city or neighborhood is alot. By the end of the year there should be 12-20 cranes in certain parts of this metro.... The LIRR service structure should change once ESA is completed of course this is 2019....and Queens is getting 2 new stations and 1 upgraded station by then.

Secaucus has stereotypes and now a flooding haze hanging over them , which aside from the one TOD and apartments near Route building any large scale TOD is going to be a tough sell. Its isolation and lack of "Live , work , play" attraction also plays into its shrinking future. Which is why after this TOD is completed , I don't see others coming along. This is different then the Vancouver Metro or Toronto Metro which are booming everywhere , growth is generally happening in either in the Core Cities or Satilite cities. Everywhere in between has had a few successes and mostly failure even with great transit....

[Alon]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

3 an hr , is all right , they do plan on bumping that to 4-6 an hr...I think by this summer... This area is just taking off again , so 4 cranes per city or neighborhood is alot. By the end of the year there should be 12-20 cranes in certain parts of this metro.... The LIRR service structure should change once ESA is completed of course this is 2019....and Queens is getting 2 new stations and 1 upgraded station by then.

Yeah, and these are going to underperform, because the service to those new Queens stations will still suck. Forest Hills, a secondary center of Queens, only gets 1 tph off-peak, with fares that aren't integrated with the subway. Local subways near city limits in Wakefield and Far Rockaway get far more ridership than the parallel commuter rail lines. Without accepting that New York commuter rail needs to be rapid transit-ified, not a dime of investment is worth it. 3 unevenly spaced tph don't cut it, and haven't for at least a century.

Secaucus has stereotypes and now a flooding haze hanging over them , which aside from the one TOD and apartments near Route building any large scale TOD is going to be a tough sell. Its isolation and lack of "Live , work , play" attraction also plays into its shrinking future. Which is why after this TOD is completed , I don't see others coming along. This is different then the Vancouver Metro or Toronto Metro which are booming everywhere , growth is generally happening in either in the Core Cities or Satilite cities. Everywhere in between has had a few successes and mostly failure even with great transit....

Vancouver is booming everywhere because it's legal to build here. New York has the demand for more housing, but it's illegal to build in many of the closest-in areas due to zoning, building permit difficulties, and historic district landmarking. That's why the entire region is so expensive, with housing prices well above construction costs. Make it legal to build and they'll come, especially this close to Manhattan. If people are gentrifying Inwood, they'll come in to Secaucus, which is closer to Midtown.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Alon

Yeah, and these are going to underperform, because the service to those new Queens stations will still suck. Forest Hills, a secondary center of Queens, only gets 1 tph off-peak, with fares that aren't integrated with the subway. Local subways near city limits in Wakefield and Far Rockaway get far more ridership than the parallel commuter rail lines. Without accepting that New York commuter rail needs to be rapid transit-ified, not a dime of investment is worth it. 3 unevenly spaced tph don't cut it, and haven't for at least a century.



Vancouver is booming everywhere because it's legal to build here. New York has the demand for more housing, but it's illegal to build in many of the closest-in areas due to zoning, building permit difficulties, and historic district landmarking. That's why the entire region is so expensive, with housing prices well above construction costs. Make it legal to build and they'll come, especially this close to Manhattan. If people are gentrifying Inwood, they'll come in to Secaucus, which is closer to Midtown.

I don't think the new stations will unperformed , Sunnyside JCT will give access to the growing LIC job hub and connect to the future MNRR Hell Gate line along with a quick walk to the E,M,R trains.... there's no way the LIRR will mess up those schedules. Then there's Elmora or Corona on the Port Washington Branch which would get 2-3 TPH....which is decent , could be better... The MNRR in The Bronx mainly serves as a reverse commuter line rather then a inbound commuter rail line.....although this doesn't apply to the Hudson line where its inbound for Riverdale , Spuyten Duyvil , and Marble Hill and the Hell Gate line will be both....inbound and outbound.

But why such emphasis on Secaucus which I don't think will last nor survive....its dying....even the new developments are dead....aside from being occupied by commuter couples without children. We should be focusing on Newark , Paterson , and Elizabeth along with Bridgeport areas with enormous amounts of land , yet no one touches it due to old stereotypes....same with Secaucus and now its even worse due to Sandy. If you fight the stereotypes then you'll see more construction and the region will balance it self out. Its not really the legality , its the culture of the region and the stereotypes... Thats slowly changing the NJ Gold Coast has boomed over the last 15 years , Newark is just starting to blossom but has a long way to go. Theres also the slow decontamination process of parts of the region , it take 10-15 years before certain areas are completely cleaned up and ready to build on in Urban Jersey and the Outer Borough's.

[Alon]

2-3 tph is not decent for an urban neighborhood. It's the kind of schedule that makes people continue to take the subway and ignore commuter rail.