Is NYC the most geopolitically diverse city in the US?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Chicagoland vs. downstate is the bigger cultural chasm.

New York City people at least occasionally travel upstate for vacations and shit.

Chicagoland people go to Wisconsin/Michigan, largely ignoring the rest of IL.



I'm a 46 year old lifelong Chicagoan.

I've never been to Springfield. Only drive-bys on I-55.

I am however planning to change that. We're gonna do a road trip with our kids down to St. Louis next spring. A stop in Springfield is already on the itinerary. Maybe make a stop in Peoria on the return leg.

if you go to St. Louis - check out our version of the forest preserves - the Henry Shaw Ozark Corridor in SW St. Louis County.

[Centropolis]

an hour or so SW of St. Louis are mountains higher (and more importantly far steeper relief) than anywhere all the way to Canada.

[Centropolis]

Wisconsin is cool but they don’t have extinct volcanic formations twice the age of the Appalachians. (i don’t think…could be wrong but Wisconsin has always seemed pretty flat. flat but cool.)


remove duplicate keywords

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

(i don’t think…could be wrong but Wisconsin has always seemed pretty flat. flat but cool.)

a lot of WI is flat-ish, but not to quite the same degree as IL corn country. more rolling than that absolute pancake flat terrain.

and SW wisconsin has the "driftless area" which avoided the last round of ice age glaciation and thus has some decent topographical variation.

it's where you can find devil's lake, one of the prettiest lakes in the midwest. it ain't alpine or anything, but still nice enough for this generally flat corner of the world.


source: https://www.baraboo.com/2019/12/27/w...d-devils-lake/

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

a lot of WI is flat-ish, but not to quite the same degree as IL corn country. more rolling than that absolute pancake flat terrain.

and SW wisconsin has the "driftless area" which avoided the last round of ice age glaciation and thus has some decent topographical variation.

it's where you can find devil's lake, one of the prettiest lakes in the midwest. it ain't alpine or anything, but still nice enough for this generally flat corner of the world.


source: https://www.baraboo.com/2019/12/27/w...d-devils-lake/

ive camped at devils lake - wonderful area. i think ive stood at that spot.

ive spent a lpt of time exploring the “wilds” of the midwest bottom to top - havent been to the UP though.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Docere

Clinton had an appeal to the rural voters and there were still a lot of conservative "ancestral Democrats" in the 1990s. But it's more than just personality. Dukakis was your classic Massachusetts liberal (Harvard-educated, lived in Brookline) and he did very well in the corn belt.

Obviously there's been a "sorting" of the electorate in the 21st century, on educational and metropolitan/non-metropolitan lines. The trend is evident across the Western democracies.

NAFTA was the turning point.

[Docere]

Time to bring the thread back on topic.

There seems to be a distinctive Italian American vote in the NYC area. They're not exactly WWC anymore, but they sort of vote like it. There's a sort of "practical businessman" ethos and cultural conservatism among Italians.

Counties like Nassau, Suffolk, Bergen, given their demographics, should vote more D than they actually do. The difference seems to be Italians.

If anything Italians are more R than they were in the 90s and 00s, or no less so, even with the D realignment of suburban whites.

[Crawford]

I don't think there's any question Italian Americans are getting redder. Until recently, there was a tradition of somewhat left-leaning Italian American politicians in the NYC area. Many were actually quite militant re. labor issues. Sal Albanese, who ran for NYC mayor a number of times, in the early 2000's, is basically an Italian American AOC. He represented Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, in the city council and state legislature. Bay Ridge has probably gotten bluer, but its unlikely you'll see another Albanese in Italian American areas.

Mario Cuomo, from Queens, was one of the most liberal U.S. governors. The Brooklyn and Bronx Dem representation had a fair number of progressive Italian Americans in the late 20th century, often representing fairly culturally conservative areas.

The Italian-American concentrations on LI and in Central Jersey are pretty red now. Even in Westchester and Fairfield, Italian areas are more GOP than expected. Will be interesting to see if this holds if GOP populism fades.

[JManc]

I don't think that's a NYC thing as I've noticed Italian Americans leaning red Upstate and I am sure others areas in the northeast. Lot's my old high school mates with a vowel in their name are pretty conservative.

[Crawford]

Philly and Boston have big Italian American populations, though not quite as overtly ethnic, IMO. Not sure if they have the same weird phenomenon, where upper income, fairly highly educated Italian American suburbs went red since you-know-who in 2016.

The whole South Shore of LI went red. It's almost all middle class or higher, and educated. The communities with Italian Americans all went red. The communities with Orthodox Jews went rural Alabama red. And these are upper class communities (Five Towns).

[Docere]

They're an American ethnic group that's "made it." But there's still some residual elements of Italian American culture that Trumpian populism resonates with. As they've gotten more suburban and affluent, they've become more GOP.

They're still somewhat more skewed toward small business and trades, I believe, and less likely to be professionals of a culturally liberal bent.

[Crawford]

Right, the South Shore of LI, while fairly high income, tends to have more of the successful tradesmen and small business owners, as opposed to lawyers and ad execs, as you'd see in say Westchester. Rockville Centre is probably an exception. The rest of the towns along the Babylon Line are red UMC areas with big Italian concentrations, excepting a few small working class Hispanic enclaves. Places like Massapequa and Bellmore. Merrick has a lot of Jews too, and Conservative, not Orthodox.

[Docere]

The most Italian county in suburban Philadelphia is Gloucester NJ. It went 50-48 Biden. But it's also less affluent/educated than the western suburbs of Philadelphia.

[Docere]

Chicago Italians:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/...94100068312115

This is comical. The man with the trace of an Italian accent (Carlo) is an outright fascist though, I've looked at his Facebook profile.

[eschaton]

This is an aside, but it reminds me of a study I saw comparing bicep size among men (as a measure of strength) and political views.


Basically, men who pump iron tend to be more in favor of their own economic class, and less in favor of others. Strong working-class men tend to be left-leaning, while weak ones are conservative. In contrast, weak wealthier men tend to be liberal, while strong ones are conservative.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

The most Italian county in suburban Philadelphia is Gloucester NJ. It went 50-48 Biden. But it's also less affluent/educated than the western suburbs of Philadelphia.

Gloucester is more working class than Italian parts of South Shore of LI or Central Jersey. I don't see affluent suburban areas of Philly or Boston going red, though I don't think they had that late Sicilian/Calabrian wave, which is pretty big in the tri-state. Could be coincidence, but Mussolini was Southern Italian and his political base was rural stock and his message was restoration of Roman Empire, so essentially Making Italy Great Again, via a charismatic connection to a loyal, aggrieved base.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Gloucester is more working class than Italian parts of South Shore of LI or Central Jersey. I don't see affluent suburban areas of Philly or Boston going red, though I don't think they had that late Sicilian/Calabrian wave, which is pretty big in the tri-state.

It's an interesting hypothesis. It seems a lot of the post-war immigrants were very successful, soon matching or surpassing the "old" Italian Americans who took a long time to rise out of the working class. Their children moved to the suburbs. They didn't feel nostalgic or defensive of the "old neighborhood." But at the same time, the Italian culture is retained in a suburban setting.

[Docere]

I assume South Shore of Long Island is more affluent than southern Staten Island?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

I assume South Shore of Long Island is more affluent than southern Staten Island?

They're probably pretty close. The far South Shore of SI (Tottenville, Annandale) is fairly affluent. Mid-Island is generally more middle class. South Shore SI will have a higher share of Italian-Americans and former Soviets, South Shore LI will have a higher share of Irish, German and non-immigrant Jews.

[Docere]

Southern Staten Island is the biggest concentration of Italian Americans. I believe it's largely offshoots of Bensonhurst and environs which was the biggest concentration ca. 1980. And it makes sense former Soviets, also initially centered in southern Brooklyn, would head to Staten Island.