HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 3:32 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,935
There's no answer to this question.

NYC may very well be "quintessential America", but it's not representative of the majority of Americans' lived experiences.

LA may very well be where consumption culture is manufactured, but a substantial amount of the creators and producers living in LA moved there from outside California, bringing their cultural frameworks with them.

And that's about it. Only NYC and LA could reasonably be positioned as the singular cultural capital of the entire country, and neither truly fits the bill.

There is no Paris, Kyoto, or Rio of the United States in this regard. We're better off for it, too.
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 3:36 AM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post

Chicagoland is racially diverse but still majority white.
That's almost certainly not true today.

Chicago's MSA was 50.2% NHW in 2020.

But with the way NHW people have been fleeing Chicagoland by the hundreds of thousands over the past couple decades, there's no way that Chicagoland hasn't fallen under the 50% mark on that score at some point over the past 3 years, becoming only the 3rd major MSA in the north to become majority non-white, after DC and NYC.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 3:47 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
LA may very well be where consumption culture is manufactured, but a substantial amount of the creators and producers living in LA moved there from outside California, bringing their cultural frameworks with them.
I agree with your larger point that there is no single cultural capital of the US. That said, what you describe here is how cultural capitals tend to function--they draw in talented, creative people from all over for the express purpose of making culture. New York is the same in this regard, as is Nashville, and Silicon Valley to a lesser degree.
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 3:58 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocman View Post
But I can’t recall many American-based fashion label that has really hit it big since then on that level. I can think of Tom Ford.
Kate Spade and Tory Burch.

But your point stands. RL's Purple Label and Collection both sit well into lux, with price points at or above Burberry's and on par with LV/Dior's. Other than these two labels, I cannot think of a single American full-lineup apparel brand with a true lux footprint.

Polo? CK? RLX? Premium labels. Tommy? Barely premium, more on par with Lacoste. DKNY plummeted after it left LVMH and started G-III and is now squarely premium.

I'll give you Tumi for lux, but obviously this isn't a full apparel brand. Ditto for Estee Lauder, with a real portfolio of lux beauty (even if Jo Malone is from London). And Tiffany. I guess there is some good category American lux.

But other than Purple Label/Collection, no true lux full-lineup labels.

Last edited by Shawn; May 15, 2023 at 4:23 AM.
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 4:17 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
I agree with your larger point that there is no single cultural capital of the US. That said, what you describe here is how cultural capitals tend to function--they draw in talented, creative people from all over for the express purpose of making culture. New York is the same in this regard, as is Nashville, and Silicon Valley to a lesser degree.
Eh, somewhat. NYC is birthplace of not just American but global hip-hop and street culture, and it was birthed by people born and raised in NYC and the immediate burbs. The entire sound system era was from NYC, by NYC. Abstract Impressionism is one of America's most important contributions to 20th century visual arts, and it was born in NYC, birthed by a long list of native New Yorkers like Kooning and Alston. Basquiat, Keith Haring. Pretty much everyone on the list not named Andy Warhol. Modern musical theater was born in NYC, birthed by natives like Gershwin and Sondheim.

I'd imagine a much larger percentage of NYC's cultural output, both historical and contemporary, comes from native born New Yorkers than LA's output comes from native Angelenos.
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 4:23 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Kate Spade and Tory Burch.
I forgot Marc Jacobs as well.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 4:27 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
I forgot Marc Jacobs as well.
Ha! Me too. Probably because he doesn't do NY Fashion Week anymore.
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 4:56 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
By coincidence, I'm pleasantly surprised (and pleased) that LAFW has been revived after having been acquired by N4XT Experiences last year. Chanel just had a runway show at Paramount Studios last week, and Versace at the Pacific Design Center back in March.

I wonder if LA can harness this momentum and have LAFW make a name for itself as a mix of haute couture and LA-based high-end streetwear labels now that designer denim and velour track suits are no longer the city's most notable sartorial exports. It's a fantastic opportunity to "incubate" local talent that might not otherwise be able to showcase in NY, as having the recognized labels anchoring events as well as a healthy turnout of celebrities and influencers would obviously come with lots of publicity.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 5:09 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Ha! Me too. Probably because he doesn't do NY Fashion Week anymore.
Oh, right. He lives in Paris.

Marc Jacobs has also gone the route of other NY labels with his more affordable "Marc by Marc Jacobs." I'm pretty sure you can find that merchandise at Nordstrom Rack.

Strangely though, you don't (or at least I don't) hear his name as much these days... probably why he skipped my mind.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 5:15 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
That's almost certainly not true today.

Chicago's MSA was 50.2% NHW in 2020.

But with the way NHW people have been fleeing Chicagoland by the hundreds of thousands over the past couple decades, there's no way that Chicagoland hasn't fallen under the 50% mark on that score at some point over the past 3 years, becoming only the 3rd major MSA in the north to become majority non-white, after DC and NYC.
The counties that are included in the CSA probably give the NHW percentage a bit of a boost. Either way, if they no longer constitute a majority, it's likely still 47% or more given that there's also black flight. They're still the plurality by a "comfortable" margin... about double the Latino percentage.

The ratio of Latino to black is also in alignment with the nation writ large, Latino's now being the second-largest racial minority. I think many Americans have this perception of Chicago still being a mostly white/black city (which I think also mirrors foreigners' perceptions), however as you've pointed out before, it's one of the nation's major population centers for Mexicans/Chicanos. The only thing about Chicagoland demographics that really deviates from the national profile, besides the enormous Polish population, is the relative lack of English ancestry. That's very unusual for a metro that is about 50% white.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner

Last edited by Quixote; May 15, 2023 at 5:28 AM.
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 5:45 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
If I could finish my point on Chicago being quite representative of all corners of the US...

My little quip (and it was meant to be that) about the beaches was in reference to Hawaii and South Florida. However, I will point out that Obama was born in Honolulu and lived in Hawaii for most of his adolescence. And it's been said that Miami's skyline is oriented much like that of Chicago's. There's even an eponymous river bisecting the downtown core. Chicagoland and South Florida are also cultural outliers within their respective states as well as situated in geographic corners.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 5:46 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Eh, somewhat. NYC is birthplace of not just American but global hip-hop and street culture, and it was birthed by people born and raised in NYC and the immediate burbs. The entire sound system era was from NYC, by NYC. Abstract Impressionism is one of America's most important contributions to 20th century visual arts, and it was born in NYC, birthed by a long list of native New Yorkers like Kooning and Alston. Basquiat, Keith Haring. Pretty much everyone on the list not named Andy Warhol. Modern musical theater was born in NYC, birthed by natives like Gershwin and Sondheim.
All good points. New York gets props for its cultural exports.

Quote:
I'd imagine a much larger percentage of NYC's cultural output, both historical and contemporary, comes from native born New Yorkers than LA's output comes from native Angelenos.
Sure, that's true. It is also true that New York has been a megacity and a (perhaps the) cultural manufactory for centuries. Los Angeles only attained critical mass in terms of population and cultural production in a fraction of that time, during which the majority of Californians were born outside the state. Only in the last few years have California natives become the majority of the state's population.

Again, I don't mean to overstate LA's role in cultural production. But I do mean that there is no single cultural capital of the nation in 2023.
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 7:28 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
LA's biggest cultural export has been the Kardashians (yeah, I know), who objectively speaking, are quite popular and influential around the world.

TMZ, which was the first to break news of Kobe Bryant's (as well as his daughter and others) tragic death in that helicopter accident in Calabasas, was founded and is led by Harvey Levin, who was born and raised in Los Angeles.

Casey Wasserman secured the 2028 Olympics for LA.

LA's last three mayors (Karen Bass, Eric Garcetti, Antonio Villaraigosa) were born and raised in LA city.

Alex Padilla, California's junior U.S. Senator, was born and raised in LA.

Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, and Doug Emhoff were born and grew up mostly elsewhere but made their careers in LA (a little different standard for politicians). Waters and Emhoff graduated from college here.

Richard Nixon was born in Yorba Linda and grew up in Whittier.

Randy Newman, singer and songwriter of "I Love L.A.," was born in LA, moved to New Orleans, and then returned to LA when he was 11.

Philippe Mathieu, who along with his brother established Philippe's (the birthplace of the French dip sandwich), emigrated from France to Buffalo in 1901 and then moved to LA in 1903.

Leonardo DiCaprio and Angelina Jolie, two of the most famous and admired A-list Hollywood celebrities, were born and grew up in LA. Jolie lived in New York for five years beginning when she was six.

Half of the Friends cast has an LA connection. Lisa Kudrow is straight up from LA. Jennifer Aniston was born in LA but grew up in NYC. David Schwimmer was born in NYC but moved to LA when he was two.

Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre, Eazy-E, Suge Knight...

Evan Spiegel (Snapchat), Michael Milken (Milken Institute), Jonathan Gold (LA Times), Henry Samueli (moved to LA at age 10; UCLA/UCI philanthropy and owner of the Anaheim Ducks).

Billie Eilish, Kesha, Adam Levine, all the members of Linkin Park...

Amanda Gorman...

Etc. A small selection of Angelenos who have made large and/or meaningful cultural contributions from LA and for LA. The list for NYC would be much, much longer and easier to put together. But for a city where "everyone is from someplace else," that's not a bad list.

+ Will Ferrell, Bryan Cranston (Breaking Bad)
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner

Last edited by Quixote; May 15, 2023 at 7:59 AM.
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 7:38 AM
Illithid Dude's Avatar
Illithid Dude Illithid Dude is offline
Paramoderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Santa Monica / New York City
Posts: 3,003
Of course it's silly to say that Los Angeles has a traditional theater culture to rival New York. It does not. New York is the capital of the theater. But Los Angeles is the pop music epicenter. I know musicians in both cities, some very successful. You simply need to move to LA to make it in the music industry. New York simply doesn't have the level and breadth of studios, mixers, producers, session musicians etc etc that Los Angeles does. New York has the corporate headquarters. Los Angeles has the actual music. I guarantee almost every single major musician America lives in Los Angeles, or at least has a house here. Hell, I should know. I've been to most of them.
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 8:29 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,474
I've always found it ironic how LA doesn't have a thriving live theater scene (or a semi-prestigious film festival at least on the level of Tribeca). It's not just the amount of established and aspiring actors we have, but also musicians, singers, dancers, costume and set designers, production specialists (i.e. sound, lighting), hair and makeup artists, talent agents, etc. Theater can open doors for up-and-coming artists by allowing them to hone their craft and make potentially life-changing connections that eventually lead to big-screen stardom. The resources, audience, and infrastructure are all here.

Same goes for fashion.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 12:03 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
The counties that are included in the CSA probably give the NHW percentage a bit of a boost.
Chicagoland's MSA is already so absurdly over-bloated that jumping up to the CSA level only adds 5 mainly rural, low-population counties that only add up to about 370,000 people (<4% of the MSA).

So the needle wouldn't be moved a great deal if you added them in.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
They're still the plurality by a "comfortable" margin.
Oh yeah, NHWs are definitely a plurality here, but that's still true pretty much everywhere outside of the usual suspects like Honolulu, Miami, and the Cali cities.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 1:06 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocman View Post
Because you can’t make a case
I can, but it would almost certainly violate the SSP CvC.
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 2:15 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavillav View Post
The name America and the demonym "Americano / American" is important for Latin Americans because Vespucci was first part of one of the Columbus expeditions sponsored by the kings of Spain and then by Portugal. As heirs to those old empires, that name is an important part of our identity, that´s why we considered ourselves American.

just said... that is another history

I'd bet that fewer than 5% of U.S. citizens know who the America in The United States of America is named after.

North America has a completely different settlement and colonial history than Central and South America.

The Spanish and Portuguese came to get gold (and whatever else they could find that was valuable) in order to be able to fund the defense of their countries in the event that the Muslims returned or France or another European power attacked.

The United States and Canada were an afterthought for England and France. A significant gold rush didn't occur in North America until 1849, just after the U.S. marched on Mexico City and made them hand over thinly-populated California. Had that gold been discovered prior to the Mexican-American War, world history would be completely different.
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 2:16 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocman View Post
NY Fashion week has been in trouble for a while. And a lot of that has to do with the lack of anchor labels to maintain its prestige. When the biggest NY brands show up at Ross and TJ Maxx, and you see it on t-shirts, they can’t get that reputation back from overlicensing the brand. Every one of those designers with the exception of Vera Wang (I think), fell into that trap. Of those, Lauren and Klein are really the only ones that maintain some part of their original cache today despite that. And RL decamped his show to LA this year, skipping NY fashion week altogether. Not that it’s specifically American thing. I remember Yves Saint Laurent and Gucci once did that too, pre-Tom Ford. NY is on the fashion calendar, but Paris and Milan really are the only two that matter today. Maybe London for menswear. America just isn’t really a player anymore in high fashion. It experienced a “moment” in the 80s/90s with those labels you just mentioned. But I can’t recall many American-based fashion label that has really hit it big since then on that level. I can think of Tom Ford.
This is starting to sound absurd lol. There pretty much is no other notable fashion week in the United States besides New York's.
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 3:34 PM
TempleGuy1000 TempleGuy1000 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicman215 View Post
Hi, I'm new here and I thought I might start a discussion. I've noticed some other countries (esp. in Europe) have declared cultural capitals but AFAIK the US doesn't officially have one or never had one nominated. I think my city Philadelphia is the perfect choice, since it has the best museums in the country and undoubtedly offers the finest musical ensembles and it's considered ground zero for classical music and high arts. Yes, you can say NYC has the largest collection of artistic activities and most money but most of it is bought rather than homegrown, where Philly excels at homegrown arts and culture. Same with DC, the federal gov't funds the arts and culture there and anything in DC most likely didn't originate locally.

I don't want to make a 1st post too long, so I'll nominate Philly to be the US's cultural capital for its excellent and extremely vibrant artistic scene that's second to none in quality and diversity. If you disagree, what other cities should be considered?
You should have expanded upon your thoughts more in your initial post because I would be curious on why you were prompted to make the thread. Also I don't really agree the 'high arts' are any less or more organic in Philadelphia than NYC. I agree DC does benefit more from the collective wealth and prestige of the country in terms of it's museum and arts culture being the capitol city.

When trying to determine cultural relevancy, I believe there is a fine line between just describing aspects of a place you like versus actually explaining why something is culturally relevant outside of it's own region. Food, language, music, entertainment, popular media depictions and more can contribute to one place's 'exported' image. Then there is the more subliminal influence places have through the industrial power located in and around them such a finance, education, fashion, technology, etc.

I think a good case can be made for many of the large cities in the US. If I were asked to make a case for Philadelphia: You can eat Philly cheesesteaks in all corners of the world. Some countries simply call Cream Cheese 'Philadelphia'. There's Philadelphia-themed chain bar/restaurants in London and NYC. 80% of Pretzels in the US come from PA and iconic brands such as Auntie Anne's and Super Pretzel came from the Philadelphia metro. Hershey's Chocolate started on Spring Garden Street in Philadelphia.

In terms of media depictions; Always Sunny in Philadelphia is the longest running live-action Comedy Sitcom in US TV history that has achieved international popularity. Abbott Elementry and The Goldbergs are two other emmy-winning sitcoms still on set in Philadelphia. The city also exists in the fictional worlds of DC and Marvel with DC's Shazam movies most recently being based there. Netflix has several movies set in Philadelphia including last year's Adam Sandler movie Hustle. By a lot of measurements, Comcast is the largest media company in the world producing hits like Super Mario Bros. The Movie and Fast and the Furious 10. It owns news networks around the world and has a say in a lot of different affairs and a variety of outlets to expand their cultural influence (even if it is hating them lol).

From a fashion point, it's hard to deny the contribution the URBN companies had in helping define the 2010s more hipster aesthetic through their Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, and Free People stores. One of the more random facts a lot of people do not know is that the Philadelphia-Wilmington area was originally colonized by the Swedish and given the name New Sweden. Not much is left beyond a few very old structures, a museum, and the city and country sharing the same official colors. However, the Swedes did gift us with one thing: the US HQ of IKEA, a very cultural influential furniture brand. Center City-based Five Below has also thrived in retail while others have went bankrupt having it made it big capitalizing on crazes like the Fidget Spinner and still growing fast across the US.

In terms of other random celebrities/entertainers that could be perceived as having or having been pretty influential who claim/ed the Philadelphia metro as their hometown/origin place: Kevin Hart, Will Smith, Kobe Bryant (RIP), Taylor Swift, Joe Biden, Pink, Bradley Cooper, Kevin Bacon, Marshmellow, Diplo, plenty of other rappers, rock bands, indie rock, etc. We don't talk about Bill Cosby anymore, but it's hard to deny through many different mediums, Bill was culturally influential. Dick Clark's American Bandstand in West Philadelphia changed the music industry forever and contributed to evolving American culture in the 20th century. The Sound of Philadelphia in the 1970s. Boyz to Men. You can go decade by decade and find contributions from artists in the city.

A thing that separates Philadelphia (and other legacy cities who have never been out of the top 5 in US history in size) is the cultural longevity too. Prince Albert, the reigning Monarch of Monaco is the son of, proud Philadelphian, Princess Grace Kelly. Benjamin Netanyahu, the current Prime Minister of Israel, said the reason he is a tough and gritty guy is because he's from Philadelphia. Many other influential and powerful people such as Elon Musk and Donald Trump spend their college years living and socializing in Philadelphia.

Sports: one of the great sports cities of America and known for the crazy fans. Have had cultural super stars like Wilt Chamberlain, Dr. J, Allen Iverson and Charles Barkley. While Philly isn't on the beach or in the mountains, it did carve itself a name in late-1990s and early 2000s with skateboarding and being known as a gritty-punk skate hotspot. With homegrown stars like Bam Margera, Philly was the first place outside of LA that hosted the X Games.

Lol I wrote this in two sittings but felt Philly deserved it's due. I could also tell you how the midland accent technically originated from the Philadelphia area and how Vanguard controls a lot of the financial world indirectly lol, but I am tired of writing and you guys probably don't care. But as I said at the start too, I think you can make a point for lots of places.

Last edited by TempleGuy1000; May 15, 2023 at 4:02 PM.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:28 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.