Suburban Skylines - Page 22

isaidso · #**421** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 4:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nite

Personally I would much rather live near Square One than VMC because of the mall and all the other restaurants and entertainment nearby. I have never understood why being beside a large regional mall was a drawback for MCC.

Alot of people don't want to live in an area where they need a car. In Mississauga, even if you live next to Square One you're going to drive. Walking there is extremely unpleasant.

In MCC there is next to no city life outside. 99.9% of the time you're in a box called a house, in a box called a car, in a box at work, or in a box called a mall. Theses people find that type of existence mundane, maddening, and depressing. They want regular roads with shops on them, people on the sidewalk, cyclists whizzing by, parks and public squares, architecture to look at, etc. In other words, they want to live in a vibrant city rather than a plastic container.

Nite · #**422** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 5:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Alot of people don't want to live in an area where they need a car. In Mississauga, even if you live next to Square One you're going to drive. Walking there is extremely unpleasant.

In MCC there is next to no city life outside. 99.9% of the time you're in a box called a house, in a box called a car, in a box at work, or in a box called a mall. Theses people find that type of existence mundane, maddening, and depressing. They want regular roads with shops on them, people on the sidewalk, cyclists whizzing by, parks and public squares, architecture to look at, etc. In other words, they want to live in a vibrant city rather than a plastic container.

so you would rather live in VMC than MCC then?

Doady · #**423** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 8:30 PM**

The idea that people who live in MCC drive to the shops at the ground level of their condo building, they drive across the street to Square One, that only 0.1% of residents of MCC ever use public transit or walk or cycle is just funny. Even in other parts of Mississauga, or anywhere in the GTA for that matter, it is not the car 99.9% of the time. There's just zero evidence, no statistics at all to back that up. It's a good example why it is hard to have any sort of serious discussion about car dependence or urban sprawl on SSP. Everything is just either black or white here, nothing in-between.

memph · #**424** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 8:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's difficult but not impossible. It may not be in the plans today but I suspect Square One will eventually be re-built section by section. The parking lots will be the first to go followed by density above some of the stores. Those massively wide boulevards surrounding Square One will need to be re-designed too. They're tantamount to highways. The biggest mistake they're making, thus far, is not chopping those monster sized blocks up. It's never going to feel urban when you have 3-4 lanes of traffic in each direction traveling at 70km/h on a block 200m long.

Some of the new streets are narrower, but overall I agree there's way too many wide roads. I am hoping that the LRT will make the wide roads feel more like Spadina Ave though, and the good thing about the LRT is that it does a loop through MCC, so Rathburn, Burnhamthorpe and Hurontario will all be impacted (Duke of York too but it's much more traffic calmed as is).

I suspect that square One's redeveloped will see the surface lots redeveloped with large underground parking areas that can be used for customers, which will allow the above ground parking garages to be redeveloped next. That will be followed by the big box anchors and the older wings of the malls. I don't think it's essential to redevelop the whole thing though, redeveloping the parking lots, garages and big box stores would be sufficient.

memph · #**425** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 9:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

The idea that people who live in MCC drive to the shops at the ground level of their condo building, they drive across the street to Square One, that only 0.1% of residents of MCC ever use public transit or walk or cycle is just funny. Even in other parts of Mississauga, or anywhere in the GTA for that matter, it is not the car 99.9% of the time. There's just zero evidence, no statistics at all to back that up. It's a good example why it is hard to have any sort of serious discussion about car dependence or urban sprawl on SSP. Everything is just either black or white here, nothing in-between.

Crawford · #**426** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 11:10 PM**

Who lives in these GTA suburban highrise condos? Is it mostly immigrants? Young people? Empty nesters?

The new, market rate ones, like in North York, not the Jane/Finch-style older commieblocks.

dc_denizen · #**427** Posted **Feb 27, 2021, 11:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by memph

yes but Reston and Bethesda have even more pedestrians

Reston

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9587...7i16384!8i8192

Bethesda

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9847...7i16384!8i8192

seriously what is the point of comparing some suburban mall development in a real estate bubble market with historic midwestern American downtowns?

Crawford · #**428** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 12:32 AM**

Bethesda is much more urban and affluent than Mississuaga, though. It's the best urbanish suburb in the DC-area favored quarter. Chevy Chase/Bethesda is basically a continuation of NW Washington.

A better Toronto analogue would be something like Yonge-Lawrence or Yonge-Eglington, both in built form and demographics.

Dariusb · #**429** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 1:04 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Bethesda is much more urban and affluent than Mississuaga, though. It's the best urbanish suburb in the DC-area favored quarter. Chevy Chase/Bethesda is basically a continuation of NW Washington.

A better Toronto analogue would be something like Yonge-Lawrence or Yonge-Eglington, both in built form and demographics.

Off topic but is Chevy Chase the singer or the other way around?

Nite · #**430** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 2:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

yes but Reston and Bethesda have even more pedestrians

Reston

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9587...7i16384!8i8192

Bethesda

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9847...7i16384!8i8192

seriously what is the point of comparing some suburban mall development in a real estate bubble market with historic midwestern American downtowns?

Am i missing something because Mississauga City Centre has more pedestrians on the street than both the example based on the streetview you posted
and the comparison was to show that pedestrian traffic in MCC was better than those midwest American cities

https://goo.gl/maps/7yyNfUJxoWfb91R59

MCC is less than a third complete now so plenty more residence are on it's there way to improve the amenities and pedestrian traffic by 2030

Nite · #**431** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 2:48 AM**

Metrotown, Burnaby

Burnaby Lake by Mike W, on Flickr

memph · #**432** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 3:56 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

yes but Reston and Bethesda have even more pedestrians

Reston

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9587...7i16384!8i8192

Bethesda

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9847...7i16384!8i8192

seriously what is the point of comparing some suburban mall development in a real estate bubble market with historic midwestern American downtowns?

I was agreeing with Doady that Mississauga City Center isn't totally auto-oriented in its current form. There are small, internally cohesive clusters, where people do in fact walk, and have "third places". A lot of the work to be done is just expanding and connecting the existing clusters.

In the case of the Parkside Village/Confederation Parkway cluster, there are a lot of towers U/C and proposed that will expand it in the near future. These will also connect it to the clusters to the South (around Webb Dr.) and to the North (Mirage Condos). At that point you'll have a rather large cohesive cluster that includes office buildings, dozens of condo towers, a community college, city hall, central library, YMCA, parks, performing arts center and parks, with minimal dead zones (parking lots, parking garages, vacant lots). They're pretty well connected to the adjacent SFH neighbourhoods too.

The Kariya Dr. cluster is the second best one imo, and it has a lot of buildings U/C and proposed as well that will also help strengthen it.

The last area to attain a proper urban form will probably be the area north of Square One along Hurontario and along Rathburn, as well as the Mississauga Valley Blvd/Arista Way cluster, and also Square One itself.

memph · #**433** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 5:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Who lives in these GTA suburban highrise condos? Is it mostly immigrants? Young people? Empty nesters?

The new, market rate ones, like in North York, not the Jane/Finch-style older commieblocks.

It varies. The areas with lower than average immigrants are Central Toronto and the smaller more far flung suburbs/exurbs (Bowmanville, Bradford, Georgetown, Bolton, Orangeville, Uxbridge, etc). That means the bigger suburbs like Mississauga and North York have above average amounts of immigrants throughout.

But also, since housing and suburbs in Toronto don't filter down as much as in American cities, you don't really have old SFH housing becoming available in large quantities to immigrants. What is available in large quantities is new suburban SFHs and condos. The far flung suburbs aren't as attractive to condo developers, but in the bigger suburbs, land/housing values are higher so you can more easily justify building them. So because the condos are 1) new housing and 2) in the "immigrant ring", they'll typically have a lot of immigrant residents. New SFH housing in the suburbs also has a very high percentage of immigrants, for example the older SFH neighbourhoods of Brampton are about 40% immigrant and the new ones are about 60% immigrants.

You still have some new suburban condos that are less immigrant heavy, mainly in the older suburban neighbourhoods, like Port Credit, Streetsville, South Oakville, Woodbridge and Fairport (Pickering).

Age wise it's pretty diverse. Downtown Toronto condos skews very much towards young childless adults but the suburban condos have quite a lot of young families and seniors.

Doady · #**434** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 10:30 PM**

You can see how much those old downtowns have been damaged by parking lots and garages, not just the built form but also the street life. Suburbanization isn't something that only happens in the suburbs, and it's a gradual step-by-step process, just like urbanization. I hope people can begin to recognize how places are taking one step at a time, either backward or forward.

Look at 60s suburbia like the Wilson Ave corridor in North York. Some ways it is worse, some ways it is better than new suburbs. Likewise, although Mississauga City Centre isn't Shibuya, it's not exactly Meadowvale either. If we simply dismiss these differences, we cannot make any progress.

Btw, here is a shot of the Hurontario corridor in Mississauga from 2004, maybe the first photo I ever took with my first camera. It doesn't really belong in its own thread so might as well post it here. Of course, much has changed so maybe I should update it but for now I will post old version and assume I haven't posted it here already. This is my old neighbourhood of Cooksville where I grew up, and you can see the building I lived in too:

dc_denizen · #**435** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 11:24 PM**

here is a shot of rockville pike in Maryland, right outside of DC from 2010

there is plenty of this in the area now:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0850...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0868...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ro...!4d-77.1527578

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0601...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0628...7i16384!8i8192

rivalling the pedestrian count of downtown Winnipeg..

the comparison of rockville pike to some sections of suburban toronto would be interesting.

dc_denizen · #**436** Posted **Feb 28, 2021, 11:34 PM**

meanwhile here is tysons. this is the largest office park retrofit in the world probably.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9115.../data=!3m1!1e3

I see some highrises but far more midrises than in those toronto examples.

can this become a pseudo-urban environment if the parking lots are filled in completely?

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9262...7i16384!8i8192

Nite · #**437** Posted **Mar 1, 2021, 2:08 AM**

Sheppard Ave West, has several highrises areas as it passed through North York

• Video Link

memph · #**438** Posted **Mar 1, 2021, 3:40 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

meanwhile here is tysons. this is the largest office park retrofit in the world probably.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9115.../data=!3m1!1e3

I see some highrises but far more midrises than in those toronto examples.

can this become a pseudo-urban environment if the parking lots are filled in completely?

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9262...7i16384!8i8192

Well, currently it seems to be building about 5 buildings per year. The office park covers about 1500 acres. Lets say about 50% is land that will be public (parks, schools) or is occupied existing buildings that are good enough as is. That leaves about 750 acres. The new sprawling midrises cover about 3 acres each, while point towers are about 1 acre, so lets say 2 acres per building on average. Seems like Tysons is building 2-3 per year so far and slowing down (not sure why). So, should take about 150 years to finish. See you in 2170 then?...

Mississauga Center has been build about 2-3 highrises per year too. Although it doesn't do sprawling midrises like American cities do, it does mix in some townhouses with its point towers, so it averages about 2 acres developed per tower too. The pace of construction is currently increasing, with 3 towers completed at the start of this year, and 15 under construction set to be complete by 2024, and another 15 proposed. The main difference though is that there's much land to redevelop, maybe around 200-250 acres. It could take as little as 25-30 years to finish.

Also the phasing with Mississauga Center is probably better. Because the owners of Square One seem to be biding their time to redevelop their land into condos and are waiting for the rest of the area to get redeveloped, that means that the redevelopment that is currently taking place is being channeled into relatively small areas - the first around Confederation Parkway (Parkside Village, M City and 4220 Living Arts Dr projects), the second around Kariya Dr (Tempo, Kariya Gate, Exchange District, Edge, 3606 Hurontario, 185 Enfield). That means you'd have an area about 260 acres in size that will be built out within 5-10 years, which is about the same land area as New Orlean's French Quarter, so a decent sized neighbourhood.

With Tysons Corners, it seems like the new development is much more scattered.

Also another advantage for Mississauga is that most of the land to be developed is either low density commercial of vacant lots, so they can easily be redeveloped into a configuration that makes sense. With Tysons, you have a lot more existing office buildings. A lot of those will be tricky to urbanize because they're set back from the street, but the setback is often not big enough to squeeze a whole new building into it.

Crawford · #**439** Posted **Mar 1, 2021, 12:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by memph

But also, since housing and suburbs in Toronto don't filter down as much as in American cities, you don't really have old SFH housing becoming available in large quantities to immigrants. What is available in large quantities is new suburban SFHs and condos. The far flung suburbs aren't as attractive to condo developers, but in the bigger suburbs, land/housing values are higher so you can more easily justify building them. So because the condos are 1) new housing and 2) in the "immigrant ring", they'll typically have a lot of immigrant residents. New SFH housing in the suburbs also has a very high percentage of immigrants, for example the older SFH neighbourhoods of Brampton are about 40% immigrant and the new ones are about 60% immigrants.

Yeah, I don't think this demographic really exists in the U.S. Unless we're talking an extreme housing-shortage type area (say Palo Alto or Cupertino in Silicon Valley) sprawl highrises wouldn't work (and such areas wouldn't approve a four-floor building, to say nothing of a forty-floor one).

And you're probably right that housing filtering is a key difference. U.S. Metros tend to have lower-desirability older housing that filters to working class immigrants. Toronto doesn't have SFH neighborhoods like this, except maybe maybe a few older commiebloc-adjacent hoods, like in Scarborough, or Jane-Finch.

dc_denizen · #**440** Posted **Mar 1, 2021, 2:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by memph

Well, currently it seems to be building about 5 buildings per year. The office park covers about 1500 acres. Lets say about 50% is land that will be public (parks, schools) or is occupied existing buildings that are good enough as is. That leaves about 750 acres. The new sprawling midrises cover about 3 acres each, while point towers are about 1 acre, so lets say 2 acres per building on average. Seems like Tysons is building 2-3 per year so far and slowing down (not sure why). So, should take about 150 years to finish. See you in 2170 then?...

Mississauga Center has been build about 2-3 highrises per year too. Although it doesn't do sprawling midrises like American cities do, it does mix in some townhouses with its point towers, so it averages about 2 acres developed per tower too. The pace of construction is currently increasing, with 3 towers completed at the start of this year, and 15 under construction set to be complete by 2024, and another 15 proposed. The main difference though is that there's much land to redevelop, maybe around 200-250 acres. It could take as little as 25-30 years to finish.

Also the phasing with Mississauga Center is probably better. Because the owners of Square One seem to be biding their time to redevelop their land into condos and are waiting for the rest of the area to get redeveloped, that means that the redevelopment that is currently taking place is being channeled into relatively small areas - the first around Confederation Parkway (Parkside Village, M City and 4220 Living Arts Dr projects), the second around Kariya Dr (Tempo, Kariya Gate, Exchange District, Edge, 3606 Hurontario, 185 Enfield). That means you'd have an area about 260 acres in size that will be built out within 5-10 years, which is about the same land area as New Orlean's French Quarter, so a decent sized neighbourhood.

With Tysons Corners, it seems like the new development is much more scattered.

Also another advantage for Mississauga is that most of the land to be developed is either low density commercial of vacant lots, so they can easily be redeveloped into a configuration that makes sense. With Tysons, you have a lot more existing office buildings. A lot of those will be tricky to urbanize because they're set back from the street, but the setback is often not big enough to squeeze a whole new building into it.

Think you’re understating the activity in Tyson’s . And note that the idea isn’t to replace every office building . There are not 1500 acres of parking lots .

I count 7 major projects under construction in tysons with 33 currently proposed

One project , capital one hq , totals 26 acres and multiple buildings

There are additional 30 acre , 17 acre , and 46 acre sites being worked on with buildings proposed or under construction

https://ggwash.org/view/79553/tysons...r-construction