White Working Class population by city/metro

[Docere]

What is the WWC population approximately in various US cities/metros. Whites without bachelor's degrees are an imperfect but still reasonable proxy to measure it, I think.

[Steely Dan]

There are a lot of white dudes in Chicagoland without degrees who work in the building trades and many of them make pretty solid money due to strong unions. Not "Porsche money" mind you (though many of their pick-ups aren't too much less expensive these days), but still comfortably above what we normally think of as "working class".

I think we'd need actual racial and income data to really get a clear focus on it.

[mousquet]

I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

I have respect for them because they get up at 4am every morning to make their fresh bread and feed us.
They work hard and deserve the money they make.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

I have respect for them because they get up at 4am every morning to make their fresh bread and feed us.
They work hard and deserve the money they make.

Who makes more? Plumbers or professors? The gap is really quite narrow. Meanwhile the professor (I am one) had to spend upwards of a dozen years pursing undergraduate, master's and then PhD degrees (and often, a stint or three doing a post-doc), so those potential income-earning years (the prime of one's life) are financially, very lean. There are fewer and fewer tenure-track positions in Academia (the only positions that pay decent salaries) and many in Academia now work by cobbling together potentially unrenewable contracts, often from multiple institutions. Plus, when you finally graduate, you have a wall of student debt yet you are in your thirties, when it is time to marry, start a family, etc.

[mousquet]

I think it's a good and priceless feeling to feel somewhat educated in some field. You feel a bit less ignorant, kinda good at something... But you should never boast about it and have respect for all those who don't know about you do, because if they focused and worked on it, they could learn and maybe beat you at it.

Like I once said, only ignorant people think they know about everything.
Truth is we don't really know about shit yet.

I mentioned my baker... I simply like the fact that everyone has some temper for some kind of occupation or trade.
That's what we call a 'vocation'. I believe everybody should follow this thing by abstracting the standard requirements from society around them.

For example these days, too many kids want to be pop stars, like rap singers or Hollywood actors, for fame and money.
That's laughable. Honestly, most rap songs or Hollywood movies are kinda pitiful these days and I think there is a whole bunch of more interesting things to do for kids.

There's one sure thing. No room for laziness. If anybody acts like a lazy parasite, you kick their butts or cure them anyhow.
Laziness is some kind of depression that requires some treatment.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Who makes more? Plumbers or professors? The gap is really quite narrow. Meanwhile the professor (I am one) had to spend upwards of a dozen years pursing undergraduate, master's and then PhD degrees (and often, a stint or three doing a post-doc), so those potential income-earning years (the prime of one's life) are financially, very lean. There are fewer and fewer tenure-track positions in Academia (the only positions that pay decent salaries) and many in Academia now work by cobbling together potentially unrenewable contracts, often from multiple institutions. Plus, when you finally graduate, you have a wall of student debt yet you are in your thirties, when it is time to marry, start a family, etc.

Forget about tenure. There are fewer and fewer full time positions. Which means (in the US) no health benefits. Or steady paycheck. Higher education is getting greedy; not exactly hurting for money but cheapening out on salaries and opting for adjunct professors rather than full time. I knew several people who left the profession because of this.

[Docere]

Could have spared myself a lot of grief by just asking how many whites have college degrees (or don't). Oh well.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Who makes more? Plumbers or professors? The gap is really quite narrow. Meanwhile the professor (I am one) had to spend upwards of a dozen years pursing undergraduate, master's and then PhD degrees (and often, a stint or three doing a post-doc), so those potential income-earning years (the prime of one's life) are financially, very lean. There are fewer and fewer tenure-track positions in Academia (the only positions that pay decent salaries) and many in Academia now work by cobbling together potentially unrenewable contracts, often from multiple institutions. Plus, when you finally graduate, you have a wall of student debt yet you are in your thirties, when it is time to marry, start a family, etc.

Keep in mind if you're talking about the building trades in particular you generally need to buy your own health insurance (in the states) meaning the annual income doesn't sound quite as good as it could be.

It's not so much true for plumbers, but a lot of the trades (like skilled carpenters) have less work in the winter as well. I knew several guys who just lived in Florida during the winter, not to vacation, but just because that's where they could get outside work during the "cold months."

[eschaton]

Regarding Pittsburgh, there's absolutely a large working-class white contingent in sections of the city. This is the only city I've ever been too where there's a selection of what I can only call "white slum" areas. I mean, this is a white neighborhood. So is this. So is this. So is this. These areas do have growing black populations in some cases, and some of them are gentrifying, but they're all at least 50% white still - and got bad when they were 80%-90% white.

In terms of general city geography, working-class whites are on their way out almost everywhere, though they exist in such high numbers they're going to be a major factor in the city for a long time to come. It's hard these days to think of a working-class white neighborhood in the East End of the city at all, because this side of the city has been gentrifying rapidly over the last few decades. There are some pockets in the North Side however (where gentrification has mostly been limited to the historic brick rowhouse neighborhoods close to Downtown). The southern portion of the city (South of the Monongahela) is still overwhelmingly working-class white, with little gentrification/middle class presence outside of South Side Flats and pockets of Mount Washington, and only a handful of black neighborhoods.

[llamaorama]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

I have respect for them because they get up at 4am every morning to make their fresh bread and feed us.
They work hard and deserve the money they make.

I'm sure the baker inherited the real estate in a desirable urban location and there's some overcomplicated permit and zoning regulations that keep competitors out.

Because I worked in a bakery briefly when I was 19 and made $7.25 an hour and the person who did the morning shift was a mentally disabled woman. Of course we weren't making fine French pastries and selling them to tourists either.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I swear to God you don't need any phd / degree of any higher education to make money.

The wife of the baker I usually buy my croissants from takes her her kids to school in a Porsche Panamera that's worth $100k.

These people have no higher education degree. If I talked to them about math, they would feel lost, then I just don't and simply buy fresh croissants and bread from them.

Money laundering.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Money laundering.

Nah, as llamaorama said, the best hypothesis for the wealth is inheriting the fully-paid-off-a-long-time-ago inner Paris real estate where that bakery has operated for generations.

Some industries are famous for typically having most of the gains from the real estate.

I had an acquaintance who specialized in buying gas stations. He operated them too (at approximately zero profit), but the real end game was the land and locations.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by lio45

Nah, as llamaorama said, the best hypothesis for the wealth is inheriting the fully-paid-off-a-long-time-ago inner Paris real estate where that bakery has operated for generations.

What if the baker was simply a hard-working entrepreneur? I believe that's what they are.

They have a little number of employees in the bakery I'm talking about and I suspect they have several shops in town yet.

They also specialize in various pastry, not just bakery. Their business is clean and fresh quality. That's probably how they make money. Customers like their thing.

I know what heirs look like and how they act in this town. They don't get up at 4 in the morning to make bread. So that's not really the type or style of the baker. To me, he more seems like the growing working-class type and just a hard worker doing a good job in his trade.
He might also be good at convincing banks that his business is reliable, so he can get loans from them rather comfortably.

To the effect that fast social mobility is still something possible, even here in Paris.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

There are a lot of white dudes in Chicagoland without degrees who work in the building trades and many of them make pretty solid money due to strong unions. Not "Porsche money" mind you, but still comfortably above what we normally think of as "working class".

I think we'd need actual racial and income data to really get a clear focus on it.

The unions in northern cities have been a great asset to working class whites. Unfortunately, they have a history or discrimination against the working black man.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/9/...s-trade-unions

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by goat314

The unions in northern cities have been a great asset to working class whites. Unfortunately, they have a history or discrimination against the working black man.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/9/...s-trade-unions

And today, xenophobia. It seems many people believe, all over the political spectrum, than the average Chinese must be 100x poorer than the Americans in order to grant US working class lavish lives.

It seems the discourse pushing for a more egalitarian society only applies inside the borders.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

There are a lot of white dudes in Chicagoland without degrees who work in the building trades and many of them make pretty solid money due to strong unions. Not "Porsche money" mind you (though many of their pick-ups aren't too much less expensive these days), but still comfortably above what we normally think of as "working class".

I think we'd need actual racial and income data to really get a clear focus on it.

Yeah they probably make more than I do as an academic physicist (but obviously I'm not doing it for the money)

As for the original question, is working class defined by income or "blue collar" work?

[dave8721]

In Miami-Dade its very very tiny, maybe 2% of the total population maybe (if that). Most of the white population is educated and well off, working class white non-Hispanics largely fled for Broward and Palm Beach counties (or the Carolinas). You'll find a few hold outs out in the Redlands. Even finding someone who speaks any English for any working class jobs (any house repair, plumbing...etc) is tough.

[Docere]

Too bad the US Census website is such a disorganized mess. I'll have a look again later and try to pull some numbers.

Among 2 million+ metros, I'm guessing Pittsburgh is one of the most "WWC" - i.e. where noncollege whites make up a very large proportion, probably a majority of the population. At the bottom I guess would be DC, the Bay Area, and L.A. - the latter not because it has an especially educated white population but just because it has a low NHW population share.

[Crawford]

There may be two kids of WWC metropolitan typologies. The union trades-type population and the more lower income white population. The former really only exist in places where unions have some degree of power, however. Common in Michigan, not so much in Alabama.

[Docere]

College graduates (NHW)

Atlanta 46.1%
Boston 53.3%
Chicago 47.6%
Dallas 43.7%
Denver 53.9%
Detroit 34.7%
Houston 44.3%
Los Angeles 51.7%
Minneapolis 46.1%
New York 53.1%
Philadelphia 44.7%
Phoenix 38.5%
Pittsburgh 36.3%
San Francisco 62.6%
Seattle 45.6%
Washington 63.7%