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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 7:21 AM
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You might have been thinking of Birmingham, UK's second/ third city. If you want one place that was absolutely mulleted by postwar planning it's here, that's a far better example. The tower in the park idea was a big thing for the housing.




...but fast forward another 50 years and the 'estates' are largely gone and filled in with density, as has been replicated for thousands of sites around the country -Birmingham alone took down 300 highrises by 2010.

It's still pretty dense despite the modernism, and a lot has been repaired






The Greek temple on the left was rebuilt entirely:









On the ground it still has a semblance of the older city it was before:

https://www.ecosia.org/images?q=birm...11B1E9046F8CCE


The burbs though are a shitehole (and were before the war too, being a largely industrial city)


Last edited by muppet; Apr 29, 2021 at 8:29 AM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 7:36 AM
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Coventry is perhaps UK's worst example, a beautiful medieval town that was bombed flat in the Baedeker Raids (targetted at the UK's most beautiful cities as mapped out by the Baedeker tourist guides).

Before:


https://forum.historiccoventry.co.uk


After (so flattened German invented a new phrase 'coventrien' - to annihilate):




Even though quite a bit survived the concerned folk in the city hall continued to just bulldoze the rest -a brand new Coventry was awaiting : da naar!


https://i2-prod.coventrytelegraph.ne...h_00442502.jpg
https://i2-prod.coventrytelegraph.net



Today though it's slowly repairing






with new infill



https://i2-prod.coventrytelegraph.net

Last edited by muppet; May 8, 2021 at 4:10 PM.
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 10:13 AM
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Manchester's centre appears to be surrounded on all sides by low-rise postwar complexes, though. Was this industrial land, then?







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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 12:04 PM
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The freeways weren’t the problem , white flight and lack of investment were

Every empty lot could be filled in , returning the city to something closer to its original state , at a cost equal to one-tenth the market cap of dogecoin
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 12:31 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The freeways weren’t the problem , white flight and lack of investment were

Every empty lot could be filled in , returning the city to something closer to its original state , at a cost equal to one-tenth the market cap of dogecoin
Exactly. Of course freeways are *A* problem, but not the main issue.

We can still build quality cities surrounding interstates. I think Chicago does this well downtown. It can be done. Sure, they suck and people don't like to walk over them, but things can be done to make it more pleasant:

Here is a bridge over a massive interstate in Atlanta

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7768...7i16384!8i8192
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 12:44 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The freeways weren’t the problem , white flight and lack of investment were

Every empty lot could be filled in , returning the city to something closer to its original state , at a cost equal to one-tenth the market cap of dogecoin
The freeways were destabilizing.
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 12:50 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
The riots of 1967 left a gash as well. 1950-1990 wasn't kind to many cities. The riots of the late 60s to early 70's was as about as bad as it got and put a fast forward on the mass exodus from many cities:

Photo gallery: https://allthatsinteresting.com/1967-detroit-riots#25
The freeway that replaced Hastings St. opened just 3 years before the 1967 riots, so the riots were at least somewhat connected to the city completely destroying the heart of the city's largest black neighborhood.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 1:34 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, I never got that part. I mean, you destroy the poor neighborhood, and then what? Yeah, there's new public housing on the urban renewal land, but at much lower densities/unit counts. So where do you think everyone's going?

Obviously a neighborhood was "renewed" and most of the residents went to the next nearest cheap neighborhood, sparking race/wealth flight, and the cycle repeated. So, for Detroit, blacks moved up Woodward/John R, Appalachian whites headed to SW Detroit, and the Chinese moved into the Cass Corridor.

And, yeah, lots of non-blacks were removed, in Detroit and other cities. Core Detroit west of Woodward Ave. was white (heavily Appalachian) till the 1960's. There are still a tiny remnants around North Corktown/Briggs neighborhood. The Jeffries Projects (since demolished) were heavily white till the late 60's, I believe.
This was the period of peak "blank slate" thinking when it came to human nature and social ills. It was literally thought people were born tabula rasa, and that through proper social conditioning they could be molded into anything. Hence the widespread belief it was actually the physical conditions of "tenement housing" which caused social dysfunction, and plunking down poor people into suburban-style housing (or clean, modern towers with extensive landscaping) would magically cause all social ills to vanish.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Manchester's centre appears to be surrounded on all sides by low-rise postwar complexes, though. Was this industrial land, then?
Yep this was the Inner City ring, traditionally a band of industry and poverty from the Industrial Revolution, surrounding the commercial centres before the middle class/ posh suburbs start.

In the past it looked like this, a mix of industry, heavy industry and the housing of workers for the 'dark satanic mills'.


https://inostalgia.co.uk






www.christies.com


When industry caved in they got even worse:




https://flashbak.com




It's a rare example of how historic housing can look ugly and deprived despite their antiquity, and still considered an eyesore by many. This was the lowest rung of terraced housing, devoid of embellishment and almost modernist in their functionality. London for example -although blessed with thousands of terraced homes from the era, only has one such 'lowest rung' street left.




www.constructionphotography.com


However something like this still has a certain je ne sais quoi, and parts should have been saved (though many were)


https://flashbak.com

Last edited by muppet; Apr 29, 2021 at 10:37 PM.
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:35 PM
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What replaced all that is a series of regenerative efforts, with varying results. Some barely lasted the decade:


www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk



After the modernist period the planners kept to local vernaculars


80s:




90s:







'00s:







teenies:



www.urbanstrategies.com



Basically it's all about infill these days


From this:










to this - Manchester is one of Europe's fastest growing cities thanks to so much land close to the centre, that's rapidly filling up with block after block of midrise apartments:








www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Last edited by muppet; Apr 29, 2021 at 10:38 PM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:48 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Google Maps updated their street view of Detroit in November.

The Downtown looks much nicer than I expected and I'd love to visit one day to see the pre-war gems:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3296...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3296...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3304...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3323...2!9m2!1b1!2i45

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3336...2!9m2!1b1!2i45

I've been watching Bargain Block on HGTV in recent weeks. So many Detroit houses that you can buy furnished and modernized for less than $100k!
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:51 PM
edale edale is offline
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Nothing like seeing a bunch of photos of England in a thread about Detroit
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Yeah, most American cities are scarred to some extent or another, with a few exceptions that were largely spared by freeways (SF, DC, Manhattan).

Can't think of too many examples outside the US. Large swathes of Bucuresti (and probably many other Eastern European cities) were knocked during "systemization" but the end result is at least dense and fairly vibrant, if ugly.
Brussels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusselization

They didn't have highways that destroyed the city, but laissez faire zoning in the 60s and 70s destroyed a lot of gems.
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post

The Downtown looks much nicer than I expected and I'd love to visit one day to see the pre-war gems:
Yeah, I'd argue that Detroit has the best collection of pre-war towers outside of NYC & Chicago (and even if you disagree, we can all agree that detroit is at least in that conversation).

That alone is worth a visit for any true scraper-nerd.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post

Today though it's slowly repairing

with new infill
It can never be really repaired. That new infill is banal, mass assembly modernist garbage that you see in every city. The beauty that Birmingham, Cincinnati, Coventry, Detroit, Glasgow, Rotterdam, Saint Louis, etc. had is gone and we have to settle not for beauty but for functional boxes that fill in the gaps. A shame.

I'm just glad the Baedeker Blitz were largely failures and we still have Bath, Canterbury, Exeter, Norwich, York which are largely intact plus many more showstoppers: Aberdeen, Cambridge, Chester, Durham, Edinburgh, Lincoln, Oxford, Stratford-upon-Avon, the Cotswolds, rural Wales, etc.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 9:07 PM
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I just scrolled through 3 pages of English cities expecting pictures of Detroit.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 9:16 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Yeah, I'd argue that Detroit has the best collection of pre-war towers outside of NYC & Chicago (and even if you disagree, we can all agree that detroit is at least in that conversation).

That alone is worth a visit for any true scraper-nerd.
I very much agree with you, and so does my pre-war skyscraper bucket list: https://www.listchallenges.com/the-u...yscrapers-list

It goes:
  • 46% - New York
  • 16% - Chicago
  • 5% - Detroit
  • 3% - Miami
  • 2% - Baltimore
  • 2% - Cincinnati
  • 2% - Los Angeles
  • 2% - Minneapolis
  • 2% - Pittsburgh
  • 2% - San Francisco
  • 2% - Tulsa
  • 1% - Baton Rouge
  • 1% - Boston
  • 1% - Buffalo
  • 1% - Cleveland
  • 1% - Columbus
  • 1% - Dallas
  • 1% - Hartford
  • 1% - Houston
  • 1% - Kansas City
  • 1% - Lincoln
  • 1% - Memphis
  • 1% - Milwaukee
  • 1% - New Orleans
  • 1% - Philadelphia
  • 1% - Providence
  • 1% - Seattle
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 9:18 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post
So, we typically say that the freeways are what killed Detroit, but did they? I mean, I hate freeways just as much as the next freeway hating guy, but neighborhoods can exist with them. The big difference I see in those images is what appears to be a zoning change that might not have been as sustainable as they predicted. Those old neighborhoods were Detroit's heritage and were connective. All a city has is its neighborhoods. That's its culture, its history, and heritage. If anyone believes that industry setting up shop to make money cares about any of that, I would simply show them those two images. Sure, the freeways in Detroit were no good for the city and I cringe every time I see them. Thankfully, Austin dodged that bullet in the 60s when there were plans to dissect the city with them. But I see those companies that swooped in, did their thing and then left when times got hard as being the biggest damage to Detroit. Then they were left with industrial wastelands that separated the heart of the city from the rest of the neighborhoods.

In a way the same thing is happening in Austin with billion dollar tech giants coming here building their factories, except that they aren't building them in the heart of the city. They're on the edge. Apple and Tesla are two that are doing that now. Yeah, sure there are highways out there - some younger than others, but it was all open land that wasn't old neighborhoods in the city. So there's the chance now to even create neighborhoods there that do connect to the city.

This is one development that caught our eye on the forum that could become the next really big thing in Austin.

https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/n...dogs-head.html
DEVELOPERS COMB DOG'S HEAD
Heavy hitters are turning to a huge site near Tesla — but it won't be easy to build on

A satellite view of Dog's Head in far East Austin, which is formed naturally by the Colorado River. To the right of the the dog's snout is the State Highway 130 toll road and the new Tesla gigafactory.


By Kathryn Hardison and Paul Thompson – Austin Business Journal
Apr 27, 2021

The land — tucked between U.S. Highway 183 and State Highway 130 in far East Austin — faces distinct development challenges due to its history as a sand and gravel mining hub. But its proximity to both downtown and Austin-Bergstrom International Airport offers substantial allure. Tesla’s thunderous arrival in the summer of 2020 only added to the intrigue.

Family-owned ranches span about 2,100 acres of the Dog’s Head and exude untapped development potential. A handful of residences are tucked behind overgrown foliage lining dirt roads, and bright orange and pink surveying markers can be spotted in the greenery. Those survey flags are often a sign of development activity.

It’s also hard to miss the various mining operations that leave the area laden with truck activity. The Dog’s Head is still rather quiet, except for the occasional roar from airplanes that fly to and from the nearby airport.

There are some clear ties to Endeavor, though. An entity called Dog’s Head Ltd. applied for a trademark for the phrase “Dog’s Head” in August 2020, according to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The application lists the same address as Endeavor’s downtown Austin office. The documents state that Dog's Head Ltd. was created for site selection and development services for residential, retail, restaurant, commercial, civic, sports entertainment and mixed-use projects.

The initial development of freeways in Austin happened very late in the federal funding bursts, happened when the city was much smaller, and left the existing urban fabric almost entirely intact:

MoPac was built in the right of way of the Missouri Pacific or in open field north of the existing city.

183 was built in place of an existing US highway between the 90s and today and property acquisitions were mostly limited to parking lots in front of business even in the most densely built out areas.

360, while not exactly a freeway, was built in vacant hill country land.

45 and 130 were relief routes in open land around the city.

35 didn’t really destroy much either being built in the right of way of East Avenue and having very few actual land acquisitions. It created a permanent psychological barrier, but that’s not the same as destroying significant urban fabric directly.

290/71 may actually have been the most disruptive but even it skirted the existing city in mostly existing right of way with limited acquisitions.

Austin could have had it much worse as you mention, with Riverside and Cesar Chavez and 2222 and Lamar all being freeways or having significantly more freeway design elements all of which cut thru the heart of the city.
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HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Apr 29, 2021 at 9:53 PM.
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
It can never be really repaired. That new infill is banal, mass assembly modernist garbage that you see in every city. The beauty that Birmingham, Cincinnati, Coventry, Detroit, Glasgow, Rotterdam, Saint Louis, etc. had is gone and we have to settle not for beauty but for functional boxes that fill in the gaps. A shame.

I'm just glad the Baedeker Blitz were largely failures and we still have Bath, Canterbury, Exeter, Norwich, York which are largely intact plus many more showstoppers: Aberdeen, Cambridge, Chester, Durham, Edinburgh, Lincoln, Oxford, Stratford-upon-Avon, the Cotswolds, rural Wales, etc.
I agree nothing can replace beautiful old cityscapes, but I meant the density and traditional permability/ walkability/ materials has been repaired, after the destruction of war and postwar planners.
I'd also hesitate to say places like Manchester and Birmingham's Inner City rings of industry, grime and identikit slums were ever better than they are now (despite the dross -at least the dross is in
traditional materials, in even higher density and has some urban liveability). -Though still ugly AF, I know.





https://flashbak.com

Last edited by muppet; Apr 29, 2021 at 10:39 PM.
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 10:24 PM
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some of that austere manchester housing reads almost midwestern (or ohio river/mid-mississippi valley more specifically) american to me

pinterest.com

stltoday.com
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