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  #81  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 10:57 PM
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"Easy rail access" to go hike somewhere in the mountains? If "easy" means taking a train for 1 hour 52 minutes each way, then ok.

Let's not forget about the part of walking, bussing, subwaying it to Grand Central station and the whole idea of carrying your hiking boots, backpack, tent, food, water, tarp. Then what are you going to do, hike from the train station? That is so very convenient.

Easy rail access, just spend 4 hours on the train while carrying all your stuff. Ahh, the mountain air is just so fresh!
you have to carry your stuff while hiking, you can put it down on the train. And you don't have to drive a long way back and return your rental car hours back after you're tired from the hike. Sounds nice...
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  #82  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 11:15 PM
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you have to carry your stuff while hiking, you can put it down on the train. And you don't have to drive a long way back and return your rental car hours back after you're tired from the hike. Sounds nice...
Sure, you could do this and that, under any circumstances, but let's not kid ourselves here, there is nothing "easy" about a hiking trip from Grand Central to the Appalachian Trail (you have to get to GC, then hike just a little bit, to then get back to catch the train back to the city all stinky and stuff, to then commute back to your apartment from GC).

4 hours on a train + commute time to and from the train + hiking time (are you doing any real hiking at this point or just selfie posting on social media?) doesn't sound "easy" to me, it sounds like a super long ass day.
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  #83  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Camelback View Post
Sure, you could do this and that, under any circumstances, but let's not kid ourselves here, there is nothing "easy" about a hiking trip from Grand Central to the Appalachian Trail (you have to get to GC, then hike just a little bit, to then get back to catch the train back to the city all stinky and stuff, to then commute back to your apartment from GC).

4 hours on a train + commute time to and from the train + hiking time (are you doing any real hiking at this point or just selfie posting on social media?) doesn't sound "easy" to me, it sounds like a super long ass day.
sure, it's harder than if you live in the mountains and the hikes are a short distance away. That's not the case for most people... plenty of people day trip from the bay area to Tahoe for a hike and that's a much longer journey.
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  #84  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Camelback View Post
Sure, you could do this and that, under any circumstances, but let's not kid ourselves here, there is nothing "easy" about a hiking trip from Grand Central to the Appalachian Trail (you have to get to GC, then hike just a little bit, to then get back to catch the train back to the city all stinky and stuff, to then commute back to your apartment from GC).
If you personally think a 90 minute route from the middle of giant metropolis to wilderness is unbearably burdensome, you have very weird standards.

And even odder that you were just extolling the incredible access of the allegedly pristine WV wilderness, most of which is nowhere near anything, by any mode of transportation.

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4 hours on a train + commute time to and from the train + hiking time
No. 90 minutes + you're on the trail. Where is "4 hours"? What "commute time"? The station literally intersects with the trail. There are no roads, even, it's just the trail. How does anyone go anywhere if 90 minutes is too far?
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  #85  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 11:57 PM
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Putting aside all of the baggage, West Virginia is arguably worse off structurally than any other state in the country, except perhaps Mississippi. I say that because it has no major city to act as a regional draw to combat "brain drain" from the countryside, and unlike rural areas in the Plains and the Northeast, the social outcomes of rural areas are pretty goddamned awful.
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  #86  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 12:05 AM
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And Mississippi has Memphis. Memphis is kinda the big city for MS, as much of the Memphis sprawl is in MS, and Memphis ends at the MS line. Also Memphis is probably a better cultural fit for MS than TN.

Pittsburgh and DC are somewhat close to WV, but nothing like Memphis, and DC has no cultural relationship with WV whatseover.

And MS is mostly flat, with straight roads, so easily accessible. And Oxford, MS with its Faulkner-originating fame, probably serves the college town creative class demographic better than Morgantown or Huntington. But MS is also the blackest and poorest state.
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  #87  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 12:08 AM
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And Mississippi has Memphis. Memphis is kinda the big city for MS, as much of the Memphis sprawl is in MS, and Memphis ends at the MS line. Also Memphis is probably a better cultural fit for MS than TN.

Pittsburgh and DC are somewhat close to WV, but nothing like Memphis, and DC has no cultural relationship with WV whatseover. And MS is mostly flat, with straight roads, so easily accessible.
thats funny i never actively thought about north mississippi that way with its relationship to memphis other than people who go to ole miss but the catchment of memphis does run along the river.

all of my deep south cousins are scattered between oxford and memphis and sort of act as if that is a discrete region i guess.
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  #88  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 12:12 AM
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thats funny i never actively thought about north mississippi that way with its relationship to memphis other than people who go to oxford but the catchment of memphis does run along the river.
In recent years, pretty much all the Memphis white flight sprawl has been in MS. You hit the state line, and it's faux plantation subdivisions for many miles.

Memphis is the blackest sizable metro in the U.S. and whites have mostly vacated the TN side, excepting upmarket areas like Midtown and Germantown.
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  #89  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 12:32 AM
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In recent years, pretty much all the Memphis white flight sprawl has been in MS. You hit the state line, and it's faux plantation subdivisions for many miles.

Memphis is the blackest sizable metro in the U.S. and whites have mostly vacated the TN side, excepting upmarket areas like Midtown and Germantown.
ah those “southhaven” exits after the state line.

i’m sort of a midwestern barbarian but it’s interesting going out with dentists and their wives to country clubs in those weird plantation suburbs, the classing is more intense and the things that happen can be interesting.
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  #90  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And Mississippi has Memphis. Memphis is kinda the big city for MS, as much of the Memphis sprawl is in MS, and Memphis ends at the MS line. Also Memphis is probably a better cultural fit for MS than TN.

Pittsburgh and DC are somewhat close to WV, but nothing like Memphis, and DC has no cultural relationship with WV whatseover.

And MS is mostly flat, with straight roads, so easily accessible. And Oxford, MS with its Faulkner-originating fame, probably serves the college town creative class demographic better than Morgantown or Huntington. But MS is also the blackest and poorest state.
The Mississippi delta region is the poorest in the country and Appalachia is not far behind along with some of the Indian reservations in the Southwest and Dakotas. The delta is mostly Mississippi but also includes portions of Louisiana, Arkansas and Tennessee that are heavily black with high levels of poverty, crime and few of any economic opportunities. Appalachia is mostly white but with similar levels of poverty, crime and lack of economic opportunities now that coal mining has mostly ended.
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  #91  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 1:31 AM
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How much tourism economy exists in West Virginia? I see there are some grand resorts like The Greenbrier in White Sulphur Springs but then I look at other towns along the Amtrak Route and they look like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6745...7i13312!8i6656

I see the Cardinal stops within New River Gorge National Park in Thurmond and Prince, but it doesn't seem like a practical way to visit the park (there's nowhere to stay there or rent a car even... I guess you can bring a tent and a bike and maybe make it work?). Fayetteville nearby looks nice enough...
I've been to Hinton and it's a quaint little town. It's definitely prettier than the Street View, although there's nothing there but some old 19th-century homes and some antiques.

To answer your question, nobody takes the Amtrak to visit New River Gorge. Almost nobody even rides the Cardinal.

The Cardinal train from New York to Chicago takes 28 hours. A flight is 2.5 hours tops. 4.5 hours if you arrive 2 hours early in New York.

So who is going to take a 28 hour Amtrak train that costs 5-10x the price of the flight? The only ones I've ever encountered were seniors and train enthusiasts. This train in particular is on time 32% of the time, so 28 hours is usually 30+ hours. And it also is thrice weekly. So if you miss it, you'll have to pay for two nights' of hotel till the next one.

Even worse, the stations make no sense. The station in Thurmond, West Virginia, services a literal ghost town: Thurmond, West Virginia - Wikipedia. Even worse, the New River Gorge area has 3 stations, all spaced 30 minutes apart. New River Gorge National Park is my favorite place in the entire U.S., and I've been to all 3 "towns." Thurmond has no people. Prince has 100 people. Hinton peaked in 1930 and has lost 12% of its population since 2010. The average income is so low nobody can afford an Amtrak ticket. Here's a map of the route: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rdinal.svg.png

So what's the rationale? Simple: Joe Manchin and Shelley Moore Capito won't vote for more Amtrak funding unless we keep these ghost stations on the map. And yet we have a train that goes to New River Gorge National Park, none of the locals can use, yet tourists can't take advantage of it either because there's no hotel capacity or a tourist-oriented trolley or whatever in any of these places. So even though it's my favorite region, I would never get off at Hinton. How would I get around? Where would I stay? Truly boggles the mind.

Anyone thinking of taking the Amtrak to New River Gorge is going to be hit with a bad time.
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  #92  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 1:39 AM
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Of course no state has uniform characteristics statewide, but yeah, WV is absolutely characterized by lopped-off hillsides, poisoned rivers/air and bombed-out towns.

No state has been as denuded from mining as WV. No state has had massive water quality issues as WV (entire metros had no drinking water a few years ago). WV has some of the worst air quality in the U.S., and Charleston and Parkersburg (two of the largest cities) have epic poisoned air/water. Watch the film Dark Waters, which is based on Dupont's insane poisoning of WV over decades. I wouldn't allow my child to stay in such a town for even a week, given the air quality from chemical plants. I'd be concerned about drinking from any municipal water system, statewide.

And WV's population is smaller than in the Great Depression. No state has been as hollowed-out, so there are bombed-out towns everywhere.

Of course that doesn't mean there aren't pristine corners and quaint towns. New River Gorge looks amazing, and the eastern mountain sections look pretty wild. But WV will have difficulty marketing itself as "natural" when there are so many unnatural incursions. Many people I know won't hike/camp in PA given the fracking destruction, but WV is like 100x less regulated.
I've driven through West Virginia a lot on weekend hiking trips (Harpers Ferry, Summersville, New River Gorge NP, Weston, Moundsville, Point Pleasant, Charleston, White Sulphur Springs, Cass Scenic Railroad).

It is nowhere near as bombed out as you're making it look. Does it have more mountaintop removal than adjacent states? Yes, of course. But let's not pretend it's some post-apocalyptic hellhole.

It's arguably the most underrated State in the nation for all it offers. Where else can you go hiking in a national park and pay $50 a night for a nice hotel? That's what I try to every year when I stay in Beckley and spend an extended weekend seeing the New River Gorge Area.

I have Dolly Sods Wilderness, Coopers Rock State Forest and Seneca Rocks on my list for this year. Maybe Spruce Knob and/or Berkeley Springs later on too.
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  #93  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 1:54 AM
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Look at a satellite picture of WV. It might be our greenest state?
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  #94  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 2:05 AM
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Ad eschaton mentions, not having a major city within the state hurts WV current and future economic prospects. Being right in the thick of the East coast-northeast-mid Atlantic-midwest-south transition results in major city options in relative close proximity in all directions. So, there’s an incredible pull from all sides to leave WV. And in turn, very little to draw people in.

Even though there has been a lot of federal investment/relocation to the I-79 corridor in the northern part of the state, it’s still just nowhere near enough to provide enough jobs for college grads, particularly entry-level jobs for college grads. It’s not like the state is nothing it uneducated hillbillies. The are a decent number of universities and colleges (including two HBCUs) in the state, with 3 med schools and a law school. And the University of Charleston even has a branch campus in Beckley. It’s known as UC-Beckley... you academics who follow the college rankings have likely heard of it.
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  #95  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 2:13 AM
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To answer your question, nobody takes the Amtrak to visit New River Gorge. Almost nobody even rides the Cardinal.

Anyone thinking of taking the Amtrak to New River Gorge is going to be hit with a bad time.
Right, I said earlier that no one is taking the train to visit the New River Gorge... I don’t think SIGSEGV is familiar enough with the geography and topography of the region to understand how ridiculously not fun that would be.
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  #96  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 2:30 AM
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I have Dolly Sods Wilderness, Coopers Rock State Forest and Seneca Rocks on my list for this year. Maybe Spruce Knob and/or Berkeley Springs later on too.
Dolly Sods and Coopers Rock are two of my frequent “easy drive from Pittsburgh” destinations. I recommend them both. I don’t do Seneca rocks or spruce knob as often, but have been to both, for hiking and camping, and just driving through checking out the sights. The whole area getting into the national forest is gorgeous. I love it this time of year, as you’re just surrounded by bright lime green lushness.
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  #97  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 2:31 AM
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I've been to Hinton and it's a quaint little town. It's definitely prettier than the Street View, although there's nothing there but some old 19th-century homes and some antiques.

To answer your question, nobody takes the Amtrak to visit New River Gorge. Almost nobody even rides the Cardinal.

The Cardinal train from New York to Chicago takes 28 hours. A flight is 2.5 hours tops. 4.5 hours if you arrive 2 hours early in New York.

So who is going to take a 28 hour Amtrak train that costs 5-10x the price of the flight? The only ones I've ever encountered were seniors and train enthusiasts. This train in particular is on time 32% of the time, so 28 hours is usually 30+ hours. And it also is thrice weekly. So if you miss it, you'll have to pay for two nights' of hotel till the next one.

Even worse, the stations make no sense. The station in Thurmond, West Virginia, services a literal ghost town: Thurmond, West Virginia - Wikipedia. Even worse, the New River Gorge area has 3 stations, all spaced 30 minutes apart. New River Gorge National Park is my favorite place in the entire U.S., and I've been to all 3 "towns." Thurmond has no people. Prince has 100 people. Hinton peaked in 1930 and has lost 12% of its population since 2010. The average income is so low nobody can afford an Amtrak ticket. Here's a map of the route: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rdinal.svg.png

So what's the rationale? Simple: Joe Manchin and Shelley Moore Capito won't vote for more Amtrak funding unless we keep these ghost stations on the map. And yet we have a train that goes to New River Gorge National Park, none of the locals can use, yet tourists can't take advantage of it either because there's no hotel capacity or a tourist-oriented trolley or whatever in any of these places. So even though it's my favorite region, I would never get off at Hinton. How would I get around? Where would I stay? Truly boggles the mind.

Anyone thinking of taking the Amtrak to New River Gorge is going to be hit with a bad time.
Sure, obviously taking the Cardinal between NYC and Chicago makes very little sense (even if you wanted to take the train, the Lake Shore Limited is faster and more frequent), except that the Cardinal is more scenic (since it goes through the New River Gorge).

But taking it from DC to the New River Gorge would totally make sense if there was any tourist infrastructure there at all... like a nice hotel and car rental in Hinton, Prince or Thurmond. Hell it wouldn't even be that bad of an option from Chicago (yes, it's 15 hours to Thurmond, but the train leaves just before dinner time and arrives there in the morning). But as you said, without any infrastructure, it basically makes zero sense, which is too bad, since the train is probably one of the better ways to actually see a lot of the gorge.
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  #98  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 3:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
I've been to Hinton and it's a quaint little town. It's definitely prettier than the Street View, although there's nothing there but some old 19th-century homes and some antiques.

To answer your question, nobody takes the Amtrak to visit New River Gorge. Almost nobody even rides the Cardinal.

The Cardinal train from New York to Chicago takes 28 hours. A flight is 2.5 hours tops. 4.5 hours if you arrive 2 hours early in New York.

So who is going to take a 28 hour Amtrak train that costs 5-10x the price of the flight? The only ones I've ever encountered were seniors and train enthusiasts. This train in particular is on time 32% of the time, so 28 hours is usually 30+ hours. And it also is thrice weekly. So if you miss it, you'll have to pay for two nights' of hotel till the next one.

Even worse, the stations make no sense. The station in Thurmond, West Virginia, services a literal ghost town: Thurmond, West Virginia - Wikipedia. Even worse, the New River Gorge area has 3 stations, all spaced 30 minutes apart. New River Gorge National Park is my favorite place in the entire U.S., and I've been to all 3 "towns." Thurmond has no people. Prince has 100 people. Hinton peaked in 1930 and has lost 12% of its population since 2010. The average income is so low nobody can afford an Amtrak ticket. Here's a map of the route: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rdinal.svg.png

So what's the rationale? Simple: Joe Manchin and Shelley Moore Capito won't vote for more Amtrak funding unless we keep these ghost stations on the map. And yet we have a train that goes to New River Gorge National Park, none of the locals can use, yet tourists can't take advantage of it either because there's no hotel capacity or a tourist-oriented trolley or whatever in any of these places. So even though it's my favorite region, I would never get off at Hinton. How would I get around? Where would I stay? Truly boggles the mind.

Anyone thinking of taking the Amtrak to New River Gorge is going to be hit with a bad time.
I did that long ass train ride when I had all the time in the world. But man, if you don't, good luck. It is incredibly slow, especially through the mountains.
Some of it is scenic, but it gets kinda old and looks the same.
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  #99  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 4:19 AM
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"Easy rail access" to go hike somewhere in the mountains? If "easy" means taking a train for 1 hour 52 minutes each way, then ok.

Let's not forget about the part of walking, bussing, subwaying it to Grand Central station and the whole idea of carrying your hiking boots, backpack, tent, food, water, tarp. Then what are you going to do, hike from the train station? That is so very convenient.

Easy rail access, just spend 4 hours on the train while carrying all your stuff. Ahh, the mountain air is just so fresh!
Uh, getting the train to go hiking is pretty common - putting a backpack on the floor of a train doesn't sound like a massive imposition.
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  #100  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 4:38 AM
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If you personally think a 90 minute route from the middle of giant metropolis to wilderness is unbearably burdensome, you have very weird standards.

And even odder that you were just extolling the incredible access of the allegedly pristine WV wilderness, most of which is nowhere near anything, by any mode of transportation.


No. 90 minutes + you're on the trail. Where is "4 hours"? What "commute time"? The station literally intersects with the trail. There are no roads, even, it's just the trail. How does anyone go anywhere if 90 minutes is too far?
4 hours was roundtrip and I was actually wrong. The ride from GC to Appalachian Trail station is not 1 hour and 52 minutes each way. Metro North is quoting 2 hours 12 minutes and it only stops at Appalachian Trail station on Saturday and Sunday, otherwise you have to get off the train in Pawling and then take a taxi(?) to get to the trail head.

If you want to get to the trail by 9:00am (9:22am) Saturday morning, you're going to have to take train #9607 departing Grand Central at 7:10am.

If you live in say Jamaica Queens, or Flatbush Brooklyn then you're going to have to get on the subway at 6:00am to make it to Grand Central in time to catch that 7:10.

To make it to the subway on time, you're going to have to add additional transit time (walking, uber, taxi). If you're close to a station, you would have to leave you apartment at 5:45am to make it the Appalachian Trail Station by 9:00 am.

So now you're looking at 3 hours 15 minutes at a minimum each way, or 6.5 hours roundtrip.

Last edited by Camelback; Apr 19, 2021 at 4:51 AM.
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