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  #121  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2020, 12:43 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by toddguy View Post
They are more tolerant of Akron because they want to claim you. But Columbus?-many of them(not all)hate us. I think if God came down and talked to some Clevelanders and said "you can have whatever you want, but remember, whatever I give you, I will give double to Columbus" they would then say back to God, "Destroy half of Cleveland, and destroy ALL of Columbus! lol
that's because half of columbus is ex-clevelanders and the people up in ne ohio think they are traitors at worst and quitters at best. enjoy your squeaky souless columbus. that kind of thing.

but ... you'll notice nobody calls columbus cowtown anymore like they used to in the 70s-80s.
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  #122  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2022, 11:11 PM
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Article in the current issue of Chicago Magazine that reminded me of this old thread.


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Chicago’s Captured Satellite Cities
Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet developed on their own, but have since been absorbed by Chicago’s suburban sprawl.

BY EDWARD MCCLELLAND
APRIL 12, 2022, 8:24 AM


Waukegan is less than an hour from the northern limits of Chicago on the UP-N Metra line, but a trip there is a trip to another Illinois. Waukegan has an old growth downtown, like an old river city on the Mississippi, or a faded factory town on the prairie. There’s a 1902 Carnegie library, about to become the home of the local historical society; the Waukegan Building, a 10-story brick office tower, now mostly empty; the Karcher Artspace Lofts, built in 1928 as the Karcher Hotel. At one end of Genesee Street — catty-corner from a statue of local-boy-made-good Jack Benny — is the Genesee Theatre, its jewel-colored marquee advertising legacy acts for a legacy city: Night Ranger, Air Supply, Jay Leno, Bill O’Reilly’s No Spin Zone.

Unlike its North Shore neighbors to the south, Waukegan has urban characteristics. Along the Waukegan River is a public housing high rise, the Harry Poe Manor. Waukegan Harbor was long contaminated with PCBs left behind by Outboard Marine Corp., a boat engine manufacturer that went bankrupt in 2000 — one of many long-gone local industries. Unlike its neighbors to the west — Grayslake, Libertyville — Waukegan has a distinct civic identity, much of it built around author Ray Bradbury, who was born in Waukegan in 1920 and made his hometown the model of Green Town, Ill., in Dandelion Wine. Visitors are invited to follow Ray Bradbury’s Green Town WaukWay, which takes them to Ray Bradbury Park, above a ravine depicted in Dandelion Wine, Bradbury’s boyhood home, and the Green Town Tavern.

Waukegan is close enough to Chicago to commute, but far enough away to ignore the big city, and live in your own private Illinois. At the public library (which, of course, has a Ray Bradbury statue in front) I met a librarian who rode the train up from Rogers Park every day, and another who hadn’t been to the city in a decade.

“We’ve got a beach here; we’ve got a theater,” said the latter. “Why go to all the hassle of Chicago?”
Full article: https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life...ellite-cities/
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  #123  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 12:49 AM
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here's a 35 mile radius circle centered on state/madison in chicago's loop, with radial lines drawn out to waukegan, elgin, aurora, and joliet.

the map also does a decent job of showing the northern/western bias of chicagoland, as development tapers off quicker when you head due south from the city, possibly because there was no historical ring city located down that way to draw sprawl out to it?


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  #124  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the map also does a decent job of showing the northern/western bias of chicagoland, as development tapers off quicker when you head due south from the city, possibly because there was no historical ring city located down that way to draw sprawl out to it?

[/url]
Because there’s no water. Or at least no cheap easy water.

To the North, Lake Michigan and the Des Plaines River

To the West and Southwest, the Fox River, Illinois River, and Sanitary and Ship Canal.

To the South past the Calumet… nada until the Kankakee River. Sprawl isn’t as easy if you have to negotiate hookups to Chicago’s water network.


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  #125  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
Detroit inner satellites are: 25miles out
Mt Clemens, Pontiac, Plymouth, Flat Rock
Detroit has outter satellites: 50 miles out
Port Huron, Flint, Ann Arbor, Toledo
I'm not sure Ann Arbor fits in with outer satellites when it's only a bit further away from Campus Martius than Pontiac. Flint, Port Huron and Toledo, those cities are waayy out there.
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  #126  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 1:50 PM
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I'm not sure Ann Arbor fits in with outer satellites when it's only a bit further away from Campus Martius than Pontiac. Flint, Port Huron and Toledo, those cities are waayy out there.
yeah, ann arbor doesn't neatly fit into either of those two rings, though it's creeping closer to the inner ring with the continued outward sprawl push from metro detroit.


distance from Campus Martius, as the crow flies:

Mt. Clemens: 20 miles
Flat Rock: 21 miles
Plymouth: 22 miles
Pontiac: 25 miles

Ann Arbor: 36 miles

Toledo:53 miles
Port Huron: 55 miles
Flint: 57 miles



toledo, port huron, and flint, are all a bit too far out to really fit the notion of a significant older (pre-war) ring city that has now been fully engulfed by the sprawl of a MUCH larger neighbor, in the way that waukegan, elgin, aurora, and joliet all have been assimilated into chicagoland.
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  #127  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 1:56 PM
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This all implicitly assumes that relative distance means the same thing in all directions. The Detroit favored quarter is North and West so the sprawl is most intense in those directions. Ann Arbor has a Portland-style growth boundary so actually it's pretty rural between Detroit and AA.

There's no way in hell Toledo is part of Metro Detroit, especially bc Downriver has the least sprawl of any directional. Port Huron and Flint maybe, but that's really stretching the limits.
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  #128  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Ann Arbor has a Portland-style growth boundary so actually it's pretty rural between Detroit and AA.
the growth boundary doesn't seem to be working all that well, because it's still pretty damn sprawly in the tweener zone along the I-94 corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2449.../data=!3m1!1e3

for reference, here's what actual rural looks like in SE michigan (same scale): https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9451.../data=!3m1!1e3


what's more, the detroit and ann arbor UA's (as of 2010 definitions) directly abut each other for a run of 7.5 continuous miles. it's probably only matter of time before they merge. if not with the new 2020 definitions, then perhaps by 2030.

the toledo, flint, and port huron UA's all still have a fair bit of open distance between themselves and the detroit UA.
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  #129  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:12 PM
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London is basically an amalgamation of hundreds of towns and villages, some of them well over a thousand years old, into “the Metropolis”.

It makes for an interesting urban/suburban patchwork, but obviously takes a very long time to learn (if one ever does). It’s also actually not super efficient in terms of travel or housing, as it means the city is quite multi-polar and it’s harder to build density near transit (since the stations tend to be in the village/town centers, which of course are historically significant and can’t be torn down for a bunch of towers, so these end up in whatever random brownfield sites they can find).
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  #130  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the growth boundary doesn't seem to be working all that well, because it's still pretty damn sprawly in the tweener zone along the I-94 corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2449.../data=!3m1!1e3

for reference, here's what actual rural looks like in SE michigan (same scale): https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9451.../data=!3m1!1e3


what's more, the detroit and ann arbor UA's (as of 2010 definitions) directly abut each other for a run of 7.5 continuous miles. it's probably only matter of time before they merge. if not with the new 2020 definitions, then perhaps by 2030.
Ann Arbor, Ypsi, and Western Wayne County have probably been sprawled together along I-94/Michigan Ave. for most of the last 80 years, given the Willow Run plant's importance in WW2.

But yeah, Washtenaw has a strict growth boundary, and, except where there was existing development, you from Ann Arbor city limits into woodlands or farmland. For example, Pontiac Trail is the main artery from Ann Arbor to the Metro Detroit favored quarter. It's completely rural as soon as you leave AA proper, and sprawl doesn't return until you hit 8 Mile/Oakland County.

The I-94 corridor is industrial and declined, and the least desirable part of Washtenaw-Wayne (excepting parts of Detroit and a few Detroit appendages like Highland Park).
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  #131  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
There's no way in hell Toledo is part of Metro Detroit, especially bc Downriver has the least sprawl of any directional. Port Huron and Flint maybe, but that's really stretching the limits.
I wouldn't consider Flint or Port Huron to be part of Metro Detroit either. Flint has a similar relationship to Detroit that Toledo does. I do think there's a case to be made for Toledo being in the Detroit CSA though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the growth boundary doesn't seem to be working all that well, because it's still pretty damn sprawly in the tweener zone along the I-94 corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2449.../data=!3m1!1e3

for reference, here's what actual rural looks like in SE michigan (same scale): https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9451.../data=!3m1!1e3
The Ann Arbor greenbelt is less than 20 years old, and was too late to stop the fusion with the Detroit UA. I'm also not sure it was really aimed at stopping the sprawl from the east. What it did stop was the sprawl of Ann Arbor to the north, west, and south of Ann Arbor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
what's more, the detroit and ann arbor UA's (as of 2010 definitions) directly abut each other for a run of 7.5 continuous miles. it's probably only matter of time before they merge. if not with the new 2020 definitions, then perhaps by 2030.

the toledo, flint, and port huron UA's all still have a fair bit of open distance between themselves and the detroit UA.
Ann Arbor is definitely more integrated into Metro Detroit than Flint, Toledo, or Port Huron, even though PH is actually in the Detroit MSA. Ann Arbor residents live far closer to DTW than most of Detroit's northern suburban residents, for instance.
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  #132  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
yeah, ann arbor doesn't neatly fit into either of those two rings, though it's creeping closer to the inner ring with the continued outward sprawl push from metro detroit.


distance from Campus Martius, as the crow flies:

Mt. Clemens: 20 miles
Flat Rock: 21 miles
Plymouth: 22 miles
Pontiac: 25 miles

Ann Arbor: 36 miles

Toledo:53 miles
Port Huron: 55 miles
Flint: 57 miles



toledo, port huron, and flint, are all a bit too far out to really fit the notion of a significant older (pre-war) ring city that has now been fully engulfed by the sprawl of a MUCH larger neighbor, in the way that waukegan, elgin, aurora, and joliet all have been assimilated into chicagoland.
Yes somewhat like Rockford being too far out to be a Chicago ring city. Also i did not know Chicago had that many suburbs, along with Los Angeles or perhaps New York it has to be tops.
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  #133  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:31 PM
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Ann Arbor is definitely more integrated into Metro Detroit than Flint, Toledo, or Port Huron, even though PH is actually in the Detroit MSA. Ann Arbor residents live far closer to DTW than most of Detroit's northern suburban residents, for instance.
Also, even where there's a growth boundary, it does nothing to prevent commuting. It might even facilitate commuting, as rural roads are faster and don't have traffic lights. You can go from Oakland County sprawl to downtown AA in about 20-25 minutes (South Lyon/Northville areas to AA).
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  #134  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 2:47 PM
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For example, Pontiac Trail is the main artery from Ann Arbor to the Metro Detroit favored quarter.
maybe back in the olden days, but the main artery from ann arbor to NW metro detroit these days is M-14, to I-275, to I-696.

ann arbor to pontiac via pontiac trail: 1:17

ann arbor to pontiac via expressways: 0:54

nobody is driving those extra 23 minutes if they don't have to.



here's the tweener space along M-14 between ann arbor's NE sprawl edge (lower left) and plymouth on metro detroits' western sprawl edge (upper right):

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3422.../data=!3m1!1e3

there's about 5 miles of "country" there along M-14, but when you zoom in, there's still a fair bit of ultra-low density "country sprawl" in there (ie. large suburban houses in the woods on multi-acre lots and that sort of thing).

with the greenbelt in place, it will hopefully stay like that, but ann arbor simply isn't as developmentally detached from metro detroit in the same way that port huron, flint, and toledo are.

it's in a gray area, and it may very well be absorbed into the detroit UA in the not too distant future.
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  #135  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the main artery from ann arbor to NW metro detroit is not pontiac trail, it's M-14, to I-275, to I-696

ann arbor to pontiac via pontiac trail: 1:17

ann arbor to pontiac via expressways: 0:54

nobody is driving those extra 23 minutes if they don't have to.
What does Pontiac have to do with anything? No McMansions in Pontiac, least desirable town in OC, and who would make that commute?

South Lyon to Ann Arbor is fastest via Pontiac Trail. There's no direct freeway from OC sprawl to AA.

South Lyon is the fastest growing community in MI (aka sprawl growth central). Tons of people working at U-M Medical Center, Google, and various AA job centers live in Western OC sprawl.
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  #136  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 3:14 PM
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What does Pontiac have to do with anything? No McMansions in Pontiac, least desirable town in OC, and who would make that commute?
novi to ann arbor via pontiac trail: 0:41

novi to ann arbor via expressways: 0:32



brighton to ann arbor via pontiac trail: 0:38

brighton to ann arbor via expressways: 0:21



milford to ann arbor via pontiac trail: 0:46

milford to ann arbor via expressways: 0:36



the only people commuting into AA from OC sprawl via pontiac trail are those living in and around South Lyon itself, everyone else is gonna use expressways like M-14 or US-23.
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  #137  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 3:33 PM
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Pontiac Trail probably wouldn't be very useful for anyone going to/from east of I-275/M-5. I don't think I've ever used Pontiac Trail to go from Oakland County to Ann Arbor and I did that drive at least twice per month in college. If you're really trying to avoid the freeways then the best route to get between Ann Arbor and Oakland County is Plymouth Road (aka Ann Arbor Road) to Haggerty Road, then Haggerty north.
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  #138  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 3:47 PM
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the only people commuting into AA from OC sprawl via pontiac trail are those living in and around South Lyon itself, everyone else is gonna use expressways like M-14 or US-23.
But that's who is coming into AA. Again, South Lyon is the fastest growing area in Michigan. It isn't coincidental that it's 20-25 min. from U-M Medical Center, and McMansions are (more or less) banned in AA's immediate vicinity. So the docs and nurses get their sprawl bliss elsewhere.

And Northville and Salem, right next store, are the same deal. Sprawly Metro Detroit, then forest/farmland, then AA. Both communities have lots of AA commuters. No freeways, just little rural roads. My sister in law makes this commute every weekday, as do many of her neighbors. Six Mile Road westwards, and it turns from McMansions into almost nothing as soon as you enter Washtenaw.

The epicenter of recent McMansion sprawl in Metro Detroit is the far western edge of Oakland County, and bleeding somewhat into Wayne County.

Of course, there are many commuters from Livingston County too, and they would take a freeway (M23). And obviously supercommuters, from elsewhere in Oakland, or wherever, would take freeways.
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  #139  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

And Northville and Salem, right next store, are the same deal.
northville to ann arbor via pontiac trail: 0:34

northville to ann arbor via expressways: 0:27



salem to ann arbor via pontiac trail: 0:24

salem to ann arbor via expressways: 0:22



the % of people who live in the vast sprawl north and northeast of ann arbor who would actually commute into it via pontiac trail is relatively small.

basically south lyon (~12,00 people) and its very immediate surroundings, everyone else is gonna drive over or down to one of the expressways to get into AA.

the kicker: google maps even says it's a couple minutes faster for people on the west side of south lyon to drive over to US-23 via 9 mile to get to AA than it is using pontiac trail.



the main arteries into AA from the north and northeast are US-23 and M-14, they are both full-scale, divided, limited access highways with a 70mph speed limit.

pontiac trail is a little old 2 lane country road with a 50mph speed limit and periodic 4-way stop sign controlled intersections.
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  #140  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2022, 5:17 PM
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in any event, moving on from the pontiac trail stupidity, here's a census 2020 tract density map of SE michigan that clearly shows ann arbor is much more developmentally connected to metro detroit along the I-94 corridor than toledo, flint, or port huron are along their respective interstate corridors.

As I said earlier, Ann Arbor is in a gray zone. It's a bit of a bubble off on its own, but it's also still tenuously connected by corridor development to the nearby metropolis. It's not fully engulfed like Pontiac, nor is it fully stand alone like Flint or Port Huron.


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