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  #81  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 5:45 PM
BigDipper 80 BigDipper 80 is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
There are old factory towns like Hamilton and Middletown, but for the most part, it's just massive amounts of sprawl where you don't really feel like you're part of Cincy or Dayton.
I agree with this. The Miami Valley is culturally very distinct from Cincinnati. People forget that Dayton's "influence" extends all the way up to at least Sidney, which no one would claim to be a part of the Cincinnati region. I'd argue that Dayton is probably a bigger magnet for west central/northwest Ohio than Cincinnati is too, second only to Columbus in terms of pulling people out of the Limas and St. Marys up there.

I think it gets murky because of the way the MSAs are defined. No one in their right mind would call Springboro a suburb of Cincinnati, but it gets counted as such due to it being in Warren County in the Cincinnati MSA. Even more weirdly, Greene County (home of the air force base and Dayton's second largest suburb, Beavercreek) is in Cincinnati's ODOT roads district but Montgomery County is in its own roads district.
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  #82  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 8:43 PM
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Originally Posted by westak View Post
Ok...this is written like a true Clevelander lol.
I may live in Cleveland now, but I'll throw out there that I did spend quite awhile living and working in Akron. I grew up near Painesville. In both places, where did my family, friends and I go for any kind of serious or unique entertainment? Cleveland. Things likely were different for you, but my own life experiences have taught me that Akron is in the orbit of Cleveland, the same as Painesville and Lorain/Elyria (while we are talking about it, I think they are a good smaller comparison to Minneapolis-St Paul as twin cities).
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  #83  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 8:51 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
I agree with this. The Miami Valley is culturally very distinct from Cincinnati. People forget that Dayton's "influence" extends all the way up to at least Sidney, which no one would claim to be a part of the Cincinnati region. I'd argue that Dayton is probably a bigger magnet for west central/northwest Ohio than Cincinnati is too, second only to Columbus in terms of pulling people out of the Limas and St. Marys up there.

I think it gets murky because of the way the MSAs are defined. No one in their right mind would call Springboro a suburb of Cincinnati, but it gets counted as such due to it being in Warren County in the Cincinnati MSA. Even more weirdly, Greene County (home of the air force base and Dayton's second largest suburb, Beavercreek) is in Cincinnati's ODOT roads district but Montgomery County is in its own roads district.
I probably overstated the similarlities of Cleveland-Akron to Cincinnati-Dayton. I forgot that Dayton has its own media market separate from Cincinnati's and that, other than Butler and maybe Warren County sprawl, don't have as much in common with each other as in Northeast Ohio.

Long story short, there's a reason why the rest of Ohio calls the Queen City "Cincitucky" and why Cincinnati seems to hate everything about Ohio north and east of 275 (King's Island being the lone exception).
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  #84  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 9:33 PM
skysoar skysoar is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Having grown up in western Pennsylvania, and being somewhat familiar (mainly eastern OH; Cleveland and Youngstown areas) with Ohio, it was always notable to me how PA had a higher population than OH... considering how many sizable cities OH had/has in comparison to PA.



Based on geography, no, Cleveland is not the center... but its fortunes govern the rest of the area's fortunes. Cleveland is the primary market influencer, and it is becoming increasingly prominent in that position, as we continue to develop into more of a regional city-state economic structure throughout the country (and it's especially unique in the rustbelt, as it's a matter of maintaining relevance/survival).

Historically, the connection did not exist as prominently because each individual city had more of their own economic independence, population, attributes, and thus, culture and identity. But incremental regional consolidation happens in the rustbelt in a very interesting way -- independent places grow closer together due to the decline we've experienced since the 1960s. It's regional growth via city decline. Cleveland/NE OH is a textbook example of this.

With incremental consolidation that occurs in rustbelt regions, comes an incremental erosion of individual city identity (however unnoticeable it is in any particular moment). In this way, Akron is, or is in the process of becoming, a "ring city" of Cleveland... no matter how prominent its historical position was and strong its own identity was/is).

Becoming part of the Cleveland media market and losing its own local TV stations is a major indicator; media absorption happens for a reason. And when there's no compelling reason to maintain separate media markets, well, it's easy to draw conclusions...

---

To me, regarding Youngstown... it seems much, much less connected to Cleveland than Akron does. Youngstown is that "in-between" Cleveland and Pittsburgh area... and arguably more connected regionally with western PA. The Mahoning/Shenango/Beaver Valley steel towns in PA, like Sharon, Farrell, and New Castle are basically part of Youngstown.
I will say whatever relationship between Akron and Cleveland is , ring city is not the correct category. In the age of cablevision even sales marketing is not locked into a cities influence based on television broadcasting alone. Clevelands fortunes does not govern Akrons in any way, if anything it probably hinders it. Akron is its own jobs generator, its in the midst of a new housing boom, its zoo is growing at a tremendous pace, and along with Canton it is the growing influence below the Ohio Turnpike to points far south. And Clevelands influence is diminishing. Evidence is in the jobs commuting between Cleveland Metro into the Akron Metro area is down to 19 per-cent ( per NOACA, a leading Cleveland regional organization), meanwhile the jobs commuting between Akrons Metro and Cantons Metro is 39 per-cent and growing (per Summit and Stark counties chambers of commerce. With this growth, it is the major reason why Akron/Canton has applied to O.B.M. to be one metro of about 1.2 million people. Also with Amazon adding between 2,000 to 3,500 new jobs at Rolling Acres off of i-77 ,with close proximity to Stark, Wayne, and Portage counties this melding of Akron/Canton will be accelerated. I know Akron and Cleveland will have some contact in the region. but it is not as a ring city, there must be a better terminology than that...
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  #85  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2020, 5:07 PM
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Akron/Canton ain’t got no 1.2 million people


Even Summit County itself (Akron) is probably half Cleveland sprawl suburbs, not Akron’s.
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  #86  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2020, 7:10 PM
skysoar skysoar is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Akron/Canton ain’t got no 1.2 million people


Even Summit County itself (Akron) is probably half Cleveland sprawl suburbs, not Akron’s.
Last thing i will say on this topic, wrong facts again. The Akron metro area population is over 700,000,Canton metro is over 400,000, they are applying to have Wayne County also included, which abuts Summit county and which has over 100,000 pop,[ U.S Census Bureau ], do the math. Also another myth that is erroneous, if you take all of the so-called Cleveland suburbs which are in Northern Summit county, cities of Hudson, Twinsburg, Northfield, Macedonia, Sagamore Hills, etc, you total just under 100,000 population[per the U.S Census Bureau. The total Population of Summit county (Akron) is 541,701, so by my math 100,000 is a long way off of being 50 percent of 541,701.So i conclude most of this Akron ring city is what we call Cleveland speak, because the facts on the ground is something very different. And i did not even include the Akron suburbs in Medina county(Cleveland Metro) like Wadsworth .Maybe we need a new topic, Metros that are moving further apart...
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  #87  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2020, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Akron/Canton ain’t got no 1.2 million people


Even Summit County itself (Akron) is probably half Cleveland sprawl suburbs, not Akron’s.
I knew you were speaking out of ignorance but this just confirms it. Skysoar has already debunked this so I’m not going to get into much more detail. However I will never understand how people who don’t live or know an area well can be experts on this sort of subject. As he said the Sprawl from Cleveland is around 100k and some of these places like Hudson are actually sprawl from both cities....and it’s accepted that this does not count Akron’s suburban sprawl into Medina County. But hey, what do we know, Akron’s just a bigger Painesville
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  #88  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 12:27 AM
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Akron the hub of 1.2 M people... and Jacksonville’s skyline is just as impressive as Toronto’s!
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  #89  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Philadelphia's Ring Cities are all over the place. Here are the main ones and their distances from Center City Philadelphia:

- Camden, NJ (pop. 73,562): ~1 mile E of Center City, Philadelphia (Settled in 1626, Incorporated in 1828)

- Atlantic City, NJ (pop. 39,558): ~62 miles SE of Center City, Philadelphia (Incorporated in 1854)

- Wilmington, DE (pop. 70,166): ~32 miles SW of Center City, Philadelphia (Settled in 1638, Incorporated in 1731, City Charter in 1832)

- Reading, PA (pop. 88,375): ~58 miles WNW of Center City, Philadelphia (Settled 1748, Incorporated in 1847)
-I would add Chester, PA (pop. 34,000): only 18 miles from Center City, and 13 miles to South Philly. (Settled in 1641, Incorporated in 1682).

Although the city is nearly dead now, at its industrial peak in the early and mid-20th century the city had ~60-65,000 people, and was an important shipping/manufacturing center. Hopefully, recent efforts to revitalize Chester's Delaware River waterfront, including a new master plan, will keep this old town alive.
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  #90  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 4:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
does your metro area follow a similar pattern of a ring of older, larger, but historically independent cities that have been swallowed up?
The entire Boston MSA (let alone the CSA) is basically just historically independent cities that have merged into Greater Boston over the last 300 years.

All the Merrimack Valley mill cities: Lowell, Lawrence, Haverhill, Nashua, Manchester

All the Buzzard's Bay and Cape Cod whaling cities: New Bedford, Fall River, Barnstable

All the Blackstone Valley and Central Mass mill cities: Worcester, Fitchburg, Leominster
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  #91  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 7:22 AM
IluvATX IluvATX is offline
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Originally Posted by Jawnadelphia View Post
-I would add Chester, PA (pop. 34,000): only 18 miles from Center City, and 13 miles to South Philly. (Settled in 1641, Incorporated in 1682).

Although the city is nearly dead now, at its industrial peak in the early and mid-20th century the city had ~60-65,000 people, and was an important shipping/manufacturing center. Hopefully, recent efforts to revitalize Chester's Delaware River waterfront, including a new master plan, will keep this old town alive.
I would add Newtown, PA also. It’s close to Trenton, NJ and should be in philly’s msa. Does Trenton go to New York or philly?
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  #92  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 4:32 PM
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I was about to repost the math I did in another tread about the suburbs in the Akron MSA that are Cleveland's, and the ones in the Cleveland MSA that are Akron's, showing how intertwined the two are... but it's not worth it anymore. Yes, Akron = Painesville. Full Stop.
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  #93  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Yeah, I know the reason PA is slightly larger than OH in population (Philadelphia area). And, aside from Scranton-WB, Erie, and a handful of smaller cities/towns, most of northern PA (north of I-80) is a vast area that is among the most desolate land in the eastern US.

As far as the Dayton-Cincy stuff goes, I really have no good idea about that. I was not in that convo. But in my limited experience in Dayton, it did not feel too close with Cincinnati despite being connected to the south via sprawl. Dayton felt like its own thing more than Akron does (TV stations being just one of those things).



That's because most of Pennsylvania is mountains and forest.

Ohio is really much more dense in population/development than PA -- that's significantly apparent on the ground. Unless you're in Philly, but that's it. Ohio is a far more urban state than Pennsylvania.
You are partly correct, Dayton shares its influence with both Cincinnati, and northwest Ohio, or the Toledo region, even though its 2.5 hrs drive from Toledo, Daytons northern side is more common with northwest ohio, and its southern side is in direct correlation with southwest Ohio or Cincinnati. You can tell the difference once you cross either side of downtown. I believe it has something to do with the Ohio Valley, because it does this same thing on Cleveland, where it is extremely hilly on Cleveland's eastside in correlation with Pittsburgh, and extremely flat on the city's westside, in correlation with Toledo or Detroit
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  #94  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 7:21 PM
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With the major exception of Galveston, Houston not only lacked any "ring" cities but had essentially no well-developed towns at all nearby until the second half of the 20th century.

-Humble, Rosenburg, Baytown, Richmond, maybe La Porte had like 4 or 5 blocks of main street and a few thousand people each, and those were by far the largest towns in the area. Big enough to at least have a movie theater and high school.

-Alief(called "Dairy", hence Dairy-Ashford Rd), Aldine, Stafford, Missouri City, Little York, Almeda, Sugar Land Pearland, Tomball, League City, Spring, etc, would have all been little more than a train depot, a church, a post office, a general store, a filling station, a school, and like a dozen ramshackle little houses full of hard working people. And that's about it. Some named places, like Klein, were more like a rural area identifying itself as a whole community rather than a built up town. Very little of the original footprint of these towns is even noticeable with the exception of Old Town Spring.

This would have been true for the above places until like 1965, too.

I think this is why even compared to Dallas and Phoenix, Houston's suburbs have so few established centers that aren't a mall, and also why the city doesn't have as many incorporated municpalities in its metro. In contrast, somewhere like Plano and Garland or Scottsdale or Decatur would have all been more built up small towns capable of self-governing and annexing land around them to expand as suburbs in their own right.
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  #95  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2020, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by IluvATX View Post
I would add Newtown, PA also. It’s close to Trenton, NJ and should be in philly’s msa. Does Trenton go to New York or philly?
Trenton goes to NYC, which is insane. Trenton, and Mercer County, NJ in general, are more tied to and aligned with Philadelphia.

I wouldn't add Newtown. It's definitely a small town. There are some towns/boroughs though that really are like small cities that I would include that function as "ring cities" to Philadelphia.

The problem is, PA's municipalities are so chopped up, their populations are pretty small on paper. Below are the larger "boroughs" or "town centers" surrounding Philadelphia, and the townships that surround them. In most other states, the town centers and townships would be one in the same, and would not be split up into different municipalities.

Larger towns surrounding Philadelphia you could count as "Ring Cities":

Norristown borough - 34,422
East Norriton township - 14,014
West Norriton township - 15,651
Total Norristown, PA real population - 64,087

Bristol borough - 9,598
Bristol Township - 53,625
Total Bristol, PA real population - 63,223

Conshohocken borough - 8,065
West Conshohocken borough - 1,422
Whitemarsh Township - 18,120
Plymouth Township - 17,570
Total Conshohocken, PA real population - 45,177

Pottstown borough - 22,667
West Pottsgrove Township - 3,876
Upper Pottsgrove Township - 5,739
Lower Pottsgrove Township - 12,112
Total Pottstown, PA real population - 44,394

West Chester borough - 20,048
West Goshen Township - 23,009
Total West Chester, PA real population - 43,057

King of Prussia borough - 19,936
Bridgeport borough - 4,579
Upper Merion Township - 11,120
Total King of Prussia, PA real population - 35,635

Media borough - 5,668
Upper Providence Township - 10,446
Nether Providence Township - 13,743
Total Media, PA real population - 29,857

Doylestown borough - 8,297
Doylestown Township - 17,428
Total Doylestown, PA real population - 25,725

Phoenixville borough - 16,957
Schuylkill Township - 8,641
Total Phoenixville, PA real population - 25,598


In fact, you could even say King of Prussia, Conshohocken, Norristown area is really one city. Their combined populations would be 144,899 in a pretty compact area.
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  #96  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2020, 3:23 PM
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I think Norristown, West Chester, and Pottstown are perfect examples of Philly ring cities
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  #97  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2020, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Trenton goes to NYC, which is insane.
Some people in Milwaukee get upset that Kenosha is added to Chicago's MSA and not theirs.

Kenosha to downtown Chicago: ~50 miles

Kenosha to downtown Milwaukee: ~30 miles



But it's all just commuter percentages (and relatively small ones at that) and kenosha has metra commuter rail into downtown Chicago, but only a commuter bus route into downtown Milwaukee.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 6, 2020 at 3:59 PM.
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  #98  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2020, 3:49 PM
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Trenton being part of NYC is like saying Akron has 1.2 million people.
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  #99  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2020, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Trenton being part of NYC is like saying Akron has 1.2 million people.
Trenton, and adjacent Hamilton, are actually two of the busiest stations in the tri-state for Manhattan-bound commuters. It isn't particularly far, Central NJ home prices are relatively cheap, and the trains run fast and express.

It isn't distance, but transit connections, that determine commuter accessibility. Trenton is on the NEC corridor line, so has better commuter connections to Manhattan than some places a few miles west of Manhattan. This is why you see unbroken sprawl all the way to New Haven, while there are still undeveloped tracts not far from Manhattan, in SI and NJ.
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  #100  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2020, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Trenton, and adjacent Hamilton, are actually two of the busiest stations in the tri-state for Manhattan-bound commuters. It isn't particularly far, Central NJ home prices are relatively cheap, and the trains run fast and express.

It isn't distance, but transit connections, that determine commuter accessibility. Trenton is on the NEC corridor line, so has better commuter connections to Manhattan than some places a few miles west of Manhattan. This is why you see unbroken sprawl all the way to New Haven, while there are still undeveloped tracts not far from Manhattan, in SI and NJ.
I understand it has to do with commuting patterns, and Mercer County, NJ has slightly higher commuter patterns to North Jersey and NYC (which is obvious, it has more jobs and they have larger employment centers), and yes, Trenton is connected to NYC and North Jersey via NJ Transit commuter lines, and Amtrak. I get all that. Trenton, Hamilton and Princeton DO NOT have unbroken sprawl and connectivity to North Jersey and NYC however.

However, here is the argument for Mercer County (Trenton) being more closely linked to Philadelphia. There is ABSOLUTELY unbroken sprawl between Philadelphia and Trenton, Hamilton and even Princeton. Mercer County, NJ is a part of the Philadelphia Media Market, not the NYC media market. Mercer County, NJ is also a part of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission - in case you didn't know, the Delaware Valley is another name for the Greater Philadelphia Area. Philadelphia is also just as connected via Transit to Trenton and Mercer County as NYC is. That same Amtrak line in Princeton and Trenton, also goes into Philadelphia. SEPTA has two transit lines that run into Trenton. Furthermore, the NJ Transit Riverline runs from Trenton down to Camden, and hits all small cities and towns in between. Mercer County also meets commuter numbers to be a part of the Philadelphia CSA, but the numbers are slightly higher to NYC and North Jersey (for obvious reasons) and therefore, goes to NYC.
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