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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Maybe, I’m not too familiar with Detroit or Flint, or Michigan in general. Though I’m assuming that Akron is a much more substantial city than Flint is (or ever was).
Flint and Detroit are like acquaintances and they're also not really connected by sprawl, still separated by rural land and recreational parks, pretty large distance in between.

Windsor is just Detroit's arm that happens to be on the other side of a river, it does not belong in this thread lol.

Cleveland and Akron seem like semi-conjoined twins? Ohioans talk like it's the same metro.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:29 AM
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I'm not saying Akron isn't an important center on its own, but I would definitely argue that it is a ring city of Cleveland - just like Painesville and Lorain/Elyria, only larger. Akron isn't that much larger than Lorain/Elyria (198k vs 117k). No one would argue now that Lorain/Elyria and Painesville are not ring cities of Cleveland. They're the same distance away, older than Akron, and boomed economically at the same time (steel vs Akron's rubber). The biggest difference is they fully sprawled into Cleveland, while the park is in between Cleveland and Akron. Historically, Akron is more tied to Cleveland than the other ring cities. It was built as a stop on the Ohio-Erie Canal (hence all the Locks that have become the main entertainment district in downtown Akron - very cool area, btw), which linked the river to Cleveland.

Akron is more culturally connected to Canton than it is to Cleveland, being that they share an airport and are physically closer (though not anywhere near bordering eachother), but is not disconnected from Cleveland. We all share a media market and sports teams. Would Akron be an important center without its proximity and connection to Cleveland? Possibly. But I think it would be more like Mansfield than how it is now. The same argument goes for Cleveland - it probably would not be the size it is now without its connections to Akron.

Maybe I am not fully understanding a "ring city" (a city which grew independently, but it now culturally an economically tied to the main center city), but I think Akron fits the bill. Looking at NEO as a whole though, I think we are more analogous to the Ruhr, in that we are a multinodal region (Cleveland, Akron, Lorain/Elyria, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Painesville, Ashtabula) that are all economically, culturally, and (alot of times with sprawl) physically connected. Unlike the Ruhr though where Essen, Dortmond, and Duisburg are all similarly sized, Cleveland is the undisputed center of this region.
^^ Interesting points... especially since they are supportive of my commentary on the matter

NE Ohio is definitely vast and multimodal... but only in the sense that there are many individual centers. It’s not like there are multiple alphas within the region. Cleveland is THE alpha of the region, and there is no other... there’s not even a close beta city close to Cleveland in the region. All of the cities of NE Ohio are what they are because of they’re proximity to Cleveland... one of the largest industrial centers in the world at one point and also one of the top 5 largest cities in the US.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:41 AM
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another indicator of northeast ohio being a bit more pulled apart than a typical monopolar region is the fact that akron/canton have their own shared commercial airport.

now, it's not a terribly big airport, with nonstop service to only 10 domestic destinations on 3 different airlines (united, american, spirit), but the mere fact that it exists only 40 miles SE of Cleveland Hopkins to serve a niche sub-regional market is telling

in chicagoland (a monopolar region to the core), you don't find secondary regional airports until you get way out to cities like rockford and southbend, a good 70-80 miles outside of the city.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 1:03 AM
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^ Its even more strange when you consider Akron-Canton Airport was much bigger only a few years ago. When Cleveland Hopkins was a United hub, it was basically all United. The budget airlines all flew out of Akron. Alot of leisure travelers from Cleveland would drive down to Akron to fly out because it was so much cheaper on average. When United left CLE, the other airlines flooded in, in turn leaving Akron. Southwest and Allegiant left completely, and Frontier, which had been the main airline in Akron, switched the majority of their flights to Hopkins. Akron-Canton went from 1.83M passengers in 2012 to 800k in 2019. 2012 meanwhile was the low point in Hopkins passenger counts at 9M, which increased to over 10M in 2019 which is higher than it was when United left. Definitely further proof of Cleveland and Akron being intertwined.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 1:09 AM
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Another point I would make which differentiates Akron from other "ring cities" - they have a decent corporate base, being home to two Fortune 500 companies (First Energy, and Goodyear).
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:17 AM
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Jesus, all this discussion about the dynamics of Cleveland and Akron also apply to Cincinnati and Dayton. It's actually kind of scary. Mirror images. Even the airports (Southwest left Dayton for CVG, even though CVG's in Kentucky)
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:27 AM
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Jesus, all this discussion about the dynamics of Cleveland and Akron also apply to Cincinnati and Dayton. It's actually kind of scary. Mirror images. Even the airports (Southwest left Dayton for CVG, even though CVG's in Kentucky)
Yeah, Ohio built way too many regular size cities.

They should've picked one single spot on the map and built a fucking chicago.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:37 AM
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Yeah, Ohio built way too many regular size cities.

They should've picked one single spot on the map and built a fucking chicago.
Ohio's greatest strength (weakness?) is all the regions fighting each other to be the prettiest princess, and then bitching when one of the regions has the audacity to buy a slightly nicer tiara. Looking at you, Columbus/Central Ohio. And no, the fucking crown of Queen City Square doesn't count as the shiniest tiara. This is metaphorical, not literal.

Remember, we're the idiots who fought Michigan for Toledo (speaking of, ring city for Detroit?). You tell me who won in the long run (hint: It wasn't Ohio)
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 12:35 PM
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The infighting with the 3C's is why I'm kind of glad that I live in Dayton these days. Other than Cincinnati insisting that Dayton is a satellite of it (I'd disagree, there's still a pretty rigid border between the two right around Monroe), Dayton pretty much stays out of the other statewide drama and does its own thing.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
The infighting with the 3C's is why I'm kind of glad that I live in Dayton these days. Other than Cincinnati insisting that Dayton is a satellite of it (I'd disagree, there's still a pretty rigid border between the two right around Monroe), Dayton pretty much stays out of the other statewide drama and does its own thing.
I honetly don't know of any infighting that takes place other than with weirdos like us(or at least me) on these forums. I would imagine the average person simply lives their life in whatever city they are in giving very little thought to what's happening in the other cities.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshSteve View Post
I'm not saying Akron isn't an important center on its own, but I would definitely argue that it is a ring city of Cleveland - just like Painesville and Lorain/Elyria, only larger. Akron isn't that much larger than Lorain/Elyria (198k vs 117k). No one would argue now that Lorain/Elyria and Painesville are not ring cities of Cleveland. They're the same distance away, older than Akron, and boomed economically at the same time (steel vs Akron's rubber). The biggest difference is they fully sprawled into Cleveland, while the park is in between Cleveland and Akron. Historically, Akron is more tied to Cleveland than the other ring cities. It was built as a stop on the Ohio-Erie Canal (hence all the Locks that have become the main entertainment district in downtown Akron - very cool area, btw), which linked the river to Cleveland.

Akron is more culturally connected to Canton than it is to Cleveland, being that they share an airport and are physically closer (though not anywhere near bordering eachother), but is not disconnected from Cleveland. We all share a media market and sports teams. Would Akron be an important center without its proximity and connection to Cleveland? Possibly. But I think it would be more like Mansfield than how it is now. The same argument goes for Cleveland - it probably would not be the size it is now without its connections to Akron.

Maybe I am not fully understanding a "ring city" (a city which grew independently, but it now culturally an economically tied to the main center city), but I think Akron fits the bill. Looking at NEO as a whole though, I think we are more analogous to the Ruhr, in that we are a multinodal region (Cleveland, Akron, Lorain/Elyria, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Painesville, Ashtabula) that are all economically, culturally, and (alot of times with sprawl) physically connected. Unlike the Ruhr though where Essen, Dortmond, and Duisburg are all similarly sized, Cleveland is the undisputed center of this region.
Ok...this is written like a true Clevelander lol. I'll start with you continuing to compare Akron to Painesville or Lorain/Elyria. Akron dwarfs both in size, amenities etc. Just like Cleveland isn't just what's in the City Limits, neither is Akron. To combine Lorain and Elyria and say they aren't that smaller let's me know you aren't looking at it from Akron being more than just the city limits. You claimed they both boomed at the same time, which may be true but Akron was literraly the Rubber captial of the world, not one of many steel towns that boomed. This is evident in the amenities, foundations and old money areas that still exist and vastly outpace places like Lorain/Elyria or Painesville. I've got family in Lorain/Elyria and it is the absolute definition of a Ring City. I've got family in Waukegan too and the two areas absolutely mirror each other.

Cleveland is the biggest city in NEO, no question, but it's not the Center of NEO in how you're describing it. People in Akron, Canton or Youngstown lives don't revolve around Cleveland. Cleveland is not where folks from these cities look to for their identity nor do they see themselves as being from the Cleveland area....even if they root for the Browns, Indians or Cavs. This is sometimes the disconnect that I see from Clevelanders when they look at the aforementioned cities. Because they are bigger they think these other areas are just an extention of them which historically has never been true. We are all in the same region and are neighbors but we are not simply sattelite cities now becuase our sprawl now touches each other.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 2:20 PM
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Flint and Detroit are like acquaintances and they're also not really connected by sprawl, still separated by rural land and recreational parks, pretty large distance in between.

Windsor is just Detroit's arm that happens to be on the other side of a river, it does not belong in this thread lol.

Cleveland and Akron seem like semi-conjoined twins? Ohioans talk like it's the same metro.
Windsor is far from just being Detroit’s arm on the other side of the river. While the two cities economies are somewhat interconnected, and there is a lot of mixing among its residents, Windsor is not really like Detroit or any of its suburbs.

Windsorites do however enjoy being a neighbour of Detroit.
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 3:08 PM
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Yeah, Ohio built way too many regular size cities.

They should've picked one single spot on the map and built a fucking chicago.
Having grown up in western Pennsylvania, and being somewhat familiar (mainly eastern OH; Cleveland and Youngstown areas) with Ohio, it was always notable to me how PA had a higher population than OH... considering how many sizable cities OH had/has in comparison to PA.

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Cleveland is the biggest city in NEO, no question, but it's not the Center of NEO in how you're describing it. People in Akron, Canton or Youngstown lives don't revolve around Cleveland. Cleveland is not where folks from these cities look to for their identity nor do they see themselves as being from the Cleveland area....even if they root for the Browns, Indians or Cavs. This is sometimes the disconnect that I see from Clevelanders when they look at the aforementioned cities. Because they are bigger they think these other areas are just an extention of them which historically has never been true. We are all in the same region and are neighbors but we are not simply sattelite cities now becuase our sprawl now touches each other.
Based on geography, no, Cleveland is not the center... but its fortunes govern the rest of the area's fortunes. Cleveland is the primary market influencer, and it is becoming increasingly prominent in that position, as we continue to develop into more of a regional city-state economic structure throughout the country (and it's especially unique in the rustbelt, as it's a matter of maintaining relevance/survival).

Historically, the connection did not exist as prominently because each individual city had more of their own economic independence, population, attributes, and thus, culture and identity. But incremental regional consolidation happens in the rustbelt in a very interesting way -- independent places grow closer together due to the decline we've experienced since the 1960s. It's regional growth via city decline. Cleveland/NE OH is a textbook example of this.

With incremental consolidation that occurs in rustbelt regions, comes an incremental erosion of individual city identity (however unnoticeable it is in any particular moment). In this way, Akron is, or is in the process of becoming, a "ring city" of Cleveland... no matter how prominent its historical position was and strong its own identity was/is).

Becoming part of the Cleveland media market and losing its own local TV stations is a major indicator; media absorption happens for a reason. And when there's no compelling reason to maintain separate media markets, well, it's easy to draw conclusions...

---

To me, regarding Youngstown... it seems much, much less connected to Cleveland than Akron does. Youngstown is that "in-between" Cleveland and Pittsburgh area... and arguably more connected regionally with western PA. The Mahoning/Shenango/Beaver Valley steel towns in PA, like Sharon, Farrell, and New Castle are basically part of Youngstown.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 3:35 PM
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Windsor is far from just being Detroit’s arm on the other side of the river. While the two cities economies are somewhat interconnected, and there is a lot of mixing among its residents, Windsor is not really like Detroit or any of its suburbs.

Windsorites do however enjoy being a neighbour of Detroit.
I'm curious. What you think differentiates Windsor from Detroit, other than the border?
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:12 PM
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I'm curious. What you think differentiates Windsor from Detroit, other than the border?
Well, being Canadian is the biggest difference, it just feels different over here, even though our regions share a lot of commonalities and local traditions, Canadian and American cities usually feel quite different from each other.

Windsor also has its own metro area and economy that isn’t really influenced much from Detroit, even though the region is one big urban area, each side is very different.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 4:32 PM
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Yeah, I get your points. I guess I wasn’t going by CSA because I don’t think that’s what Steely’s intent is and isn’t describing in his initial post with his examples of Chicago ring cities that have become completely connected/engulfed by the major city’s sprawl. All of his examples are just that.

Atlantic City is nowhere near that in the case of Philadelphia. Nor is Reading, really (not yet, at least... it is connected via the 422 corridor, but not fully surrounded by the “Philly area” by any means). Similarly with Allentown/Lehigh a valley, though even less so. Trenton functions as far more of a “ring city” for Philadelphia than it does for NYC obviously. I just don’t think that CSA classifications necessarily fit for Steely’s example.
So, in your opinion, Philadelphia has no ring cities? LOL. Surely, as one of the largest and most populous regions in the country, Philadelphia has ring cities.

If you look at a map, Reading, the Lehigh Valley (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton), Trenton, Atlantic City, Wilmington, and to a lesser extent, Lancaster, quite LITERALLY form a ring around Philadelphia. Rather an oval shaped ring, but a ring nonetheless. Is that not the definition of a ring city?

I guess if you don't want to consider Camden a ring city that's fine, since it's right across the river from Philadelphia.

Wilmington is pretty self explanatory - definitely interconnected to Philadelphia. Ditto for Trenton, despite Trenton not being a part of the Philadelphia Region, which is a crock.

Reading is pretty connected along 422. If you're in Pottstown or at the Philadelphia Premium Outlets, which are still a part of the Philadelphia MSA, you're literally closer to Reading than you are to Philadelphia.

The Lehigh Valley (Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton) is pretty connected along 309 to Philadelphia. There are only 2 gaps in development along 309 from Philadelphia to Allentown, and those two gaps are preserved Natural Lands or State Parks. The first gap in development is between Perkasie/Sellersville, and Quakertown. The second gap in development is between Coopersburg/Center Valley, and Allentown itself.

Atlantic City is definitely the least interconnected, so I can see your point there. There is a commuter rail line that runs between Philadelphia and AC, and it's most connected to Philadelphia along Route 30 and the AC Expressway, but the lack of development between say, Hammonton, and Egg Harbor City is pretty wide. Most of it is also preserved Natural Land, State forest, the Pine Barrens, etc... so it will never be developed.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 5:01 PM
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Having grown up in western Pennsylvania, and being somewhat familiar (mainly eastern OH; Cleveland and Youngstown areas) with Ohio, it was always notable to me how PA had a higher population than OH... considering how many sizable cities OH had/has in comparison to PA.
Well Ohio has no Philly equivalent. It's got 3 Pittsburghs. And SE Ohio is basically desolate.

As far as Dayton and Cincinnati mirroring the Cleveland Akron dynamic, I have to disagree. Using downtown to downtown measurement, Cle and Akron are 39 miles apart. Cincy and Dayton are 53 miles. Dayton also has its own TV and radio stations, airport, etc.

I will say, the two metros have basically all but bled into each other at this point, though. But the middle area feels disconnected from both core cities, and seems to function more as its own thing. Butler County, which lies between Cincinnati and Dayton, has almost 400,000 residents, and it's not home to any notable core city. There are old factory towns like Hamilton and Middletown, but for the most part, it's just massive amounts of sprawl where you don't really feel like you're part of Cincy or Dayton. Closest situation I can compare it to is Orange County. More or less feels like its own thing not part of LA or San Diego, though perhaps a bit more influenced by either the further north or south you go.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 5:09 PM
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Having grown up in western Pennsylvania, and being somewhat familiar (mainly eastern OH; Cleveland and Youngstown areas) with Ohio, it was always notable to me how PA had a higher population than OH... considering how many sizable cities OH had/has in comparison to PA.
Ohio and PA are as equal as two states can be. Even without a Philly, Ohio has the same population density as PA.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 5:30 PM
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So, in your opinion, Philadelphia has no ring cities? LOL. Surely, as one of the largest and most populous regions in the country, Philadelphia has ring cities.
Wait, what? Based on what I said, I'm not sure how you come to the assumption that I think Philly has no ring cities. That's clearly not even close to what I said. Really, how did you come to that conclusion?? That's what actually deserves an LOL...

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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
If you look at a map, Reading, the Lehigh Valley (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton), Trenton, Atlantic City, Wilmington, and to a lesser extent, Lancaster, quite LITERALLY form a ring around Philadelphia. Rather an oval shaped ring, but a ring nonetheless. Is that not the definition of a ring city?
I think the definition is up for debate, which is what we're doing. I'm basically going on what Steely laid out in his initial post... cities that "were then consequently consumed by sprawl"... cities that are "older, larger, but historically independent cities that have been swallowed up". That definition really doesn't fit for the Lehigh Valley nor AC. Reading, not quite, but it's getting there. I'm fully aware that Reading and the Lehigh Valley are strongly influenced by Philadelphia, but I don't know that they function as "ring cities" on the level of the Chicago examples given. I mean, we're talking 60 miles away in these cases... there's still a good bit of good ol' PA farmland in between... it's not like the Chicago examples given at all.

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Wilmington is pretty self explanatory - definitely interconnected to Philadelphia. Ditto for Trenton, despite Trenton not being a part of the Philadelphia Region, which is a crock.
Yeah, definitely on Wilmington and Trenton. They're both basically Philadelphia.

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Reading is pretty connected along 422. If you're in Pottstown or at the Philadelphia Premium Outlets, which are still a part of the Philadelphia MSA, you're literally closer to Reading than you are to Philadelphia.
Yes, I mentioned the 422 connection previously. I think it is getting there... not "swallowed up" yet though... and at an hour away, calling it a "ring city" (if we're considering Wilmington and Trenton to be ring cities), is tenuous... because it's nowhere near as connected as Wilmington and Trenton are. They're half the distance, with that distance fully urbanized.

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The Lehigh Valley (Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton) is pretty connected along 309 to Philadelphia. There are only 2 gaps in development along 309 from Philadelphia to Allentown, and those two gaps are preserved Natural Lands or State Parks. The first gap in development is between Perkasie/Sellersville, and Quakertown. The second gap in development is between Coopersburg/Center Valley, and Allentown itself.
Yeah, I'll admit there's definite regional connection, but like you say, there's gaps... lots of farmland along those routes. Like you say, it's pretty connected... I absolutely agree. But it's not contiguous and has nowhere near been engulfed by sprawl from Philly.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 5:45 PM
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Well Ohio has no Philly equivalent. It's got 3 Pittsburghs. And SE Ohio is basically desolate.

As far as Dayton and Cincinnati mirroring the Cleveland Akron dynamic, I have to disagree. Using downtown to downtown measurement, Cle and Akron are 39 miles apart. Cincy and Dayton are 53 miles. Dayton also has its own TV and radio stations, airport, etc.

I will say, the two metros have basically all but bled into each other at this point, though. But the middle area feels disconnected from both core cities, and seems to function more as its own thing. Butler County, which lies between Cincinnati and Dayton, has almost 400,000 residents, and it's not home to any notable core city. There are old factory towns like Hamilton and Middletown, but for the most part, it's just massive amounts of sprawl where you don't really feel like you're part of Cincy or Dayton. Closest situation I can compare it to is Orange County. More or less feels like its own thing not part of LA or San Diego, though perhaps a bit more influenced by either the further north or south you go.
Yeah, I know the reason PA is slightly larger than OH in population (Philadelphia area). And, aside from Scranton-WB, Erie, and a handful of smaller cities/towns, most of northern PA (north of I-80) is a vast area that is among the most desolate land in the eastern US.

As far as the Dayton-Cincy stuff goes, I really have no good idea about that. I was not in that convo. But in my limited experience in Dayton, it did not feel too close with Cincinnati despite being connected to the south via sprawl. Dayton felt like its own thing more than Akron does (TV stations being just one of those things).

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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Ohio and PA are as equal as two states can be. Even without a Philly, Ohio has the same population density as PA.
That's because most of Pennsylvania is mountains and forest.

Ohio is really much more dense in population/development than PA -- that's significantly apparent on the ground. Unless you're in Philly, but that's it. Ohio is a far more urban state than Pennsylvania.
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