SAN ANTONIO | City and Metro Transportation Thread

[JACKinBeantown]

If Musk wants to pay for it, let him. I would add one condition: that the specifications of the tunnel be such that it would allow for a regular rail-based system to be built in the future. That include turns that are not on too tight a radius, minimum tunnel size, strong foundation, two independent parallel tunnels for uninterrupted two-way traffic, etc. That way he has his chance to build his Tesla system and turn a profit, but if it fails or if he decides to cut and run in the future, the infrastructure is still in place to replace it with an already proven type of mass transit system.

[Restless One]

The Dutch may be on to something. Apples to oranges regarding this discussion, but something SA would never think of.

https://twitter.com/wowinteresting8/...20121374117888

A tunnel under an expressway in one weekend. Meanwhile we have had St Mary's and parts of New Braunfels under construction for nearly two years.

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

Wouldn't it be so much easier to build an above ground system?

Now that I think about it, maybe not. Work underground might very well not disrupt traffic on the ground level. Even now, on the East side, they are making flyovers from 410 to I10 east, and from I10 to 410 South. I'm assuming they will eventually be a four way flyover like 281 at Airport, like 281 at 1604. like HWY90 at 410 and at 1604 on the West side.

None of those flyovers have made traffic better, but have actually made it worse.

Of course, they are made for vehicle traffic, so there is that, but I don't see rail lines being cheaper or any more effective. San Antonio is not Boston, or New York. It's too spread out already, unless you want to confine people to their own side of town.

There are places here that are confined, and have the amenities anyone would want. Blue Star district, Southtown, SoFLo, the Broadway corridor, which includes the Pearl, and the area around Houston and Losoya Downtown, but people here still want to wander, and won't be without cars. It's just the way it is.

ETA: I didn't even mention the Port San Antonio/Lackland area, or the Schertz/Cibolo area. SA gave land to Schertz/Cibolo off of I10 toward Seguin, and yes, they are building South from I35. I used to work in that area, and I can't recognize it now. It's build up with medical buildings, shopping areas, new roads cut in... it's ridiculous. Pretty soon, San Antonio to Seguin will look like San Antonio to New Braunfels. You don't even know when you've left one for the other until you get to the Guadalupe River.

Or Alamo Ranch. 10 years ago it was fields. Now it's a city within the city. Just figuring out where to run rail would be a task, even if you start with the airport to Downtown. You blink your eyes, and there's a new bustling area.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by Restless One

Now that I think about it, maybe not. Work underground might very well not disrupt traffic on the ground level. Even now, on the East side, they are making flyovers from 410 to I10 east, and from I10 to 410 South. I'm assuming they will eventually be a four way flyover like 281 at Airport, like 281 at 1604. like HWY90 at 410 and at 1604 on the West side.

None of those flyovers have made traffic better, but have actually made it worse.

Of course, they are made for vehicle traffic, so there is that, but I don't see rail lines being cheaper or any more effective. San Antonio is not Boston, or New York. It's too spread out already, unless you want to confine people to their own side of town.

There are places here that are confined, and have the amenities anyone would want. Blue Star district, Southtown, SoFLo, the Broadway corridor, which includes the Pearl, and the area around Houston and Losoya Downtown, but people here still want to wander, and won't be without cars. It's just the way it is.

ETA: I didn't even mention the Port San Antonio/Lackland area, or the Schertz/Cibolo area. SA gave land to Schertz/Cibolo off of I10 toward Seguin, and yes, they are building South from I35. I used to work in that area, and I can't recognize it now. It's build up with medical buildings, shopping areas, new roads cut in... it's ridiculous. Pretty soon, San Antonio to Seguin will look like San Antonio to New Braunfels. You don't even know when you've left one for the other until you get to the Guadalupe River.

Or Alamo Ranch. 10 years ago it was fields. Now it's a city within the city. Just figuring out where to run rail would be a task, even if you start with the airport to Downtown. You blink your eyes, and there's a new bustling area.

Good points. Just remember that when you have a rail based transit system, you can have short-distance and longer-distance routes. New York and Boston each have subway systems and buses for local and intra-city routes, but they also have commuter rails for people traveling from the suburbs. The commuter routes have fewer stops that are farther apart, so you can travel 25 miles in 40 minutes (or thereabouts) and then not have to deal with parking your car and paying for it at downtown prices.

Here is the Boston rail map showing both systems. The colored lines are local and the lavender lines are commuter rail. This map doesn't even show how far out they go (which is pretty much the greater metro area). And there are a ton of bus routes that aren't even on this map.

https://www.carhire4lower.com/locati...ransit-map.jpg

[forward looking]

I don't know about any traffic disruptions for sure. If Musk is attempting to extract 6 million cubic yards of material out of a hole in the ground, there might be some delays around town. If the spoils are to be trucked away get ready for a mess. If all the excavated spoils are moved by belt, similar to what was done in the Denver Airport expansion (six million cu.yds.), there will be less disruption. Maybe there is an old empty gravel quarry nearby.
Course' maybe Musk has something up his sleeve concerning heavy and highway work I have never heard about.

Originally Posted by Restless One

Now that I think about it, maybe not. Work underground might very well not disrupt traffic on the ground level.
Or Alamo Ranch. 10 years ago it was fields. Now it's a city within the city. Just figuring out where to run rail would be a task, even if you start with the airport to Downtown. You blink your eyes, and there's a new bustling area.

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by forward looking

I don't know about any traffic disruptions for sure. If Musk is attempting to extract 6 million cubic yards of material out of a hole in the ground, there might be some delays around town. If the spoils are to be trucked away get ready for a mess. If all the excavated spoils are moved by belt, similar to what was done in the Denver Airport expansion (six million cu.yds.), there will be less disruption. Maybe there is an old empty gravel quarry nearby.
Course' maybe Musk has something up his sleeve concerning heavy and highway work I have never heard about.

You mean more than already exist? It seems we've started every road project on the books at the same time. Perhaps that will be a good thing when, we come out the other side...HAHAHAHAH. Sorry, we will never come out the other side, as the city is growing faster than we can keep up, which was the point of my posts.

Would excavating all that soil cause disruption? Of course, but as much as major thoroughfares being closed or significantly choked for years? Ask the businesses and homeowners in and around New Braunfels Between Houston St. and I 35, or on St. Mary's, or Broadway. I hope it's better when they're done. I also hope I'm alive to see it.

[forward looking]

Yes, it happens. Here in Texas they absolutely take their time completing road projects. I've never seen anything like it. It is as though they do not care about deadlines, which should be specifically set by the state. A realistic deadline. When completion times are not met, there needs to be heavy fines.
I would say this untimeliness is political in nature and about contractors making money someplace else, imagine that.
Some of the most oppressive anti-labor laws in the country already in place in Texas - a low paid labor force- and there seems to be no time limit for completion? A Contractors dream landscape. You can bet there is a lot of political influence in the state by these same large, contractors. The work goes on at a snails pace. Frankly it is, very honestly, laughable.
Well the basic infrastructure for growth is in place in San Antonio but for the freeways and Water and the city has absolutely no snow removable equipment set aside for emergencies. Shit happens.
To me San Antonio traffic isn't bad at all. The same goes with driving habits. Compared to some of the cities up north because San Antonio is so small. I love it. Where winters are very harsh, roads will wear out at an accelerated pace in comparison to the roads here. Way faster. So road work is never, ever, done in the north because of weather and also equally, because of such heavy truck traffic due to heavy industrial development along the rust belt. These put an immense load on roads and streets. But. The contractors do finish Highways in a hurry in comparison...
I avoid the mess on North 1604 right now around rush hour when I can.

Originally Posted by Restless One

You mean more than already exist? It seems we've started every road project on the books at the same time. Perhaps that will be a good thing when, we come out the other side...HAHAHAHAH. Sorry, we will never come out the other side, as the city is growing faster than we can keep up, which was the point of my posts.

Would excavating all that soil cause disruption? Of course, but as much as major thoroughfares being closed or significantly choked for years? Ask the businesses and homeowners in and around New Braunfels Between Houston St. and I 35, or on St. Mary's, or Broadway. I hope it's better when they're done. I also hope I'm alive to see it.

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by forward looking

Yes, it happens. Here in Texas they absolutely take their time completing road projects. I've never seen anything like it. It is as though they do not care about deadlines, which should be specifically set by the state. A realistic deadline. When completion times are not met, there needs to be heavy fines.
I would say this untimeliness is political in nature and about contractors making money someplace else, imagine that.
Some of the most oppressive anti-labor laws in the country already in place in Texas - a low paid labor force- and there seems to be no time limit for completion? A Contractors dream landscape. You can bet there is a lot of political influence in the state by these same large, contractors. The work goes on at a snails pace. Frankly it is, very honestly, laughable.
Well the basic infrastructure for growth is in place in San Antonio but for the freeways and Water and the city has absolutely no snow removable equipment set aside for emergencies. Shit happens.
To me San Antonio traffic isn't bad at all. The same goes with driving habits. Compared to some of the cities up north because San Antonio is so small. I love it. Where winters are very harsh, roads will wear out at an accelerated pace in comparison to the roads here. Way faster. So road work is never, ever, done in the north because of weather and also equally, because of such heavy truck traffic due to heavy industrial development along the rust belt. These put an immense load on roads and streets. But. The contractors do finish Highways in a hurry in comparison...
I avoid the mess on North 1604 right now around rush hour when I can.

I would agree with if not for the outright abandonment of some sites. I've seen the turnaround at 410 and Rigsby take over a year and a half now, and only half of that with work crews on site. And they still have the other side to go. Flyovers coming from 410 to I10 East and West. And I haven't even mentioned the second level from 410/I35 interchange going North to 3009. That recently broke ground too.

San Antonio is small??? Not according to geography. It's plenty spread out. It takes 30 minutes, with no traffic, from 410 South and Hwy 16 to Stone Oak. Alamo Ranch to East Houston is no better. What the hell are you talking about? Have you traveled from 281 to Fair Avenue? Hwy 90 from WW White to I10 West to Castroville? I10 coming from Seguin to Santa Clara? I10 West from East of DT to General McMullen? I've seen the traffic on all of these, and it ain't nice, and it won't be cured by rail or tunnels. Maybe short drone rides, in the future.

Yeah, I'd like to see some rail options, but they won't be there in my lifetime.

And Yes, If Musk wants to build a tunnel loop from the Airport to DT, then IF it is environmentally safe, let him. It can't hurt. Seems most of those on this page are for Electric Vehicles, (or no personal vehicles at all), so you should be all for it as well.

[Spoiler]

"The Texas Department of Transportation is asking the federal government for millions in railroad funding after focusing mainly on roadway infrastructure in recent years.

In a letter dated Oct. 5, Marc D. Williams, the executive director of TxDOT, petitioned Federal Railroad Administration administrator Amit Bose for funding for the expansion of several railroad corridors. This comes after years of turmoil in the development of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail system and a record $85 billion transportation plan from the Texas state government focused solely on roadway construction.

In the letter, Williams asks for federal rail grants for Texas projects like "new and enhanced, conventional intercity service options" in the Interstate 35 corridor. That includes connecting the Amtrak San Antonio station to the Rio Grande Valley. Currently, the corridor is serviced by only a once-a-day, long-distance Texas Eagle between Fort Worth and San Antonio.

The projects also include additional service between San Antonio and Houston, with the two cities currently connected only by the tri-weekly Sunset Limited, as well as an additional station stop near the mid-point at Flatonia. The stop would aim to serve many cities and counties without intercity connections between Houston and San Antonio."

https://www.expressnews.com/news/tex...t-17499437.php

[forward looking]

Yes you are accurate once again. There is a stretch of UTSA Blvd.in San Antonio, a small stretch, maybe four miles, from Babcock to near the Costco take three years to complete. The subgrade was completely finished from one end to the other. It just needed road gravel and asphalt to complete. That's it. Ridiculous.
The contractors? You see because it involves state funding the law (contract) says the state will pay the contractor no matter what. They cannot weasel their way out of paying the contractor.
If they were building a Super Walmart say, where time was of the essence for completion, the contractor either performs in a timely fashion or else they will not get paid at all and they will be run off from the site and another contractor will be put in place. As for Walmart, what do THEY think of this development? A partially finished Walmart for free because the contractor could not perform as the contract reads ?
So as I was writing earlier, UTSA Blvd sat there for three years. Not one worker was to be seen there for three years. SO, this was a one lane highway right off the Campus. Where were they all working? Someplace else I tell you. Abandonment , whatever you like to call it.
Yes San Antonio is small. It depends on what you are used to. It once took me five hours to drive from one end of Chicago to the other.
Yes, it's true. L.A. sometimes takes one hour to move one exit worth of roadway. This what the hell I am talking about. Yet in San Antonio......
Thirty minutes from 1604 south and and Highway 16 to Stone Oak?
This is wonderful time. Detroit, population 6 million in the metro area is very bad also but not nearly as bad as Chicago. To cross Detroit takes about an hour maybe more (+1\2 hr.- usually always, car fires, fatalities, rollovers) depending on delays, accidents and road work.
So you see my friend it all depends on perspective. I've driven from 1604
and 151 to FM 87 and s. loop 1604 in twenty minutes! Anything else?

That's what the hell I am talking about. NO, I WASN'T SPEEDING. You are naive is all. There is nothing nothing wrong with that. This is why I love the size and relative lack of congestion here. Yes I've been in traffic jams in S.A.
but it is not as bad as I've been in before.

Originally Posted by Restless One

I would agree with if not for the outright abandonment of some sites. I've seen the turnaround at 410 and Rigsby take over a year and a half now, and only half of that with work crews on site. And they still have the other side to go. Flyovers coming from 410 to I10 East and West. And I haven't even mentioned the second level from 410/I35 interchange going North to 3009. That recently broke ground too.

San Antonio is small??? Not according to geography. It's plenty spread out. It takes 30 minutes, with no traffic, from 410 South and Hwy 16 to Stone Oak. Alamo Ranch to East Houston is no better. What the hell are you talking about? in the future. all for it as well.

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by forward looking

Yes you are accurate once again. There is a stretch of UTSA Blvd.in San Antonio, a small stretch, maybe four miles, from Babcock to near the Costco take three years to complete. The subgrade was completely finished from one end to the other. It just needed road gravel and asphalt to complete. That's it. Ridiculous.
The contractors? You see because it involves state funding the law (contract) says the state will pay the contractor no matter what. They cannot weasel their way out of paying the contractor.
If they were building a Super Walmart say, where time was of the essence for completion, the contractor either performs in a timely fashion or else they will not get paid at all and they will be run off from the site and another contractor will be put in place. As for Walmart, what do THEY think of this development? A partially finished Walmart for free because the contractor could not perform as the contract reads ?
So as I was writing earlier, UTSA Blvd sat there for three years. Not one worker was to be seen there for three years. SO, this was a one lane highway right off the Campus. Where were they all working? Someplace else I tell you. Abandonment , whatever you like to call it.
Yes San Antonio is small. It depends on what you are used to. It once took me five hours to drive from one end of Chicago to the other.
Yes, it's true. L.A. sometimes takes one hour to move one exit worth of roadway. This what the hell I am talking about. Yet in San Antonio......
Thirty minutes from 1604 south and and Highway 16 to Stone Oak?
This is wonderful time. Detroit, population 6 million in the metro area is very bad also but not nearly as bad as Chicago. To cross Detroit takes about an hour maybe more (+1\2 hr.- usually always, car fires, fatalities, rollovers) depending on delays, accidents and road work.
So you see my friend it all depends on perspective. I've driven from 1604
and 151 to FM 87 and s. loop 1604 in twenty minutes! Anything else?

That's what the hell I am talking about. NO, I WASN'T SPEEDING. You are naive is all. There is nothing nothing wrong with that. This is why I love the size and relative lack of congestion here. Yes I've been in traffic jams in S.A.
but it is not as bad as I've been in before.

So you agree that SA is not geographically small, just less congested. That's why I said, "with no traffic". Never said anything about density. Glad we got that settled. Now we can get back to important discussions.

[forward looking]

No, I never entered such a thing. I only wrote that if this tunnel thing goes through it probably will make an above ground mess because removing six million cubic yards of earthen spoils out of a hole in the ground will create a mess.. "Depending on the method of completion". Only after you entered something here the likes of "at least the tunnel will not make a mess on the streets since it will be underground".
Also explained why, in my opinion road projects take so long. Only after you wept about the length of time it takes to complete some projects. My such a fuss was raised.
"A mess in the streets above will surely be created by a tunnel was all I entered ."

Even taking into account weather delays on street construction though ; the laissez-faire attitude of the state in holding "feet to the fire" of large contractors concerning the the delays upon completion dates of road projects
is intolerable. Yes, we did agree here. These contractors are probably getting extensions. Over and over. If you think this topic unimportant, well, I am sure there are more than a few motorists around here whom would disagree with you about untimeliness.
Never once did I say that San Antonio was large. Au contraire, written was
"I love the smallness of it". This was addressed as to you as -"It is all about relativity". In other words, what one has experienced.

Originally Posted by Restless One

So you agree that SA is not geographically small, just less congested. That's why I said, "with no traffic". Never said anything about density. Glad we got that settled. Now we can get back to important discussions.

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by forward looking

No, I never entered such a thing. I only wrote that if this tunnel thing goes through it probably will make an above ground mess because removing six million cubic yards of earthen spoils out of a hole in the ground will create a mess.. "Depending on the method of completion". Only after you entered something here the likes of "at least the tunnel will not make a mess on the streets since it will be underground".
Also explained why, in my opinion road projects take so long. Only after you wept about the length of time it takes to complete some projects. My such a fuss was raised.
"A mess in the streets above will surely be created by a tunnel was all I entered ."

Even taking into account weather delays on street construction though ; the laissez-faire attitude of the state in holding "feet to the fire" of large contractors concerning the the delays upon completion dates of road projects
is intolerable. Yes, we did agree here. These contractors are probably getting extensions. Over and over. If you think this topic unimportant, well, I am sure there are more than a few motorists around here whom would disagree with you about untimeliness.
Never once did I say that San Antonio was large. Au contraire, written was
"I love the smallness of it". This was addressed as to you as -"It is all about relativity". In other words, what one has experienced.

I know, a hard head makes a soft backside, but here goes: I said that SA is not GEOGRAPHICALLY small. Let's see how the old town holds up against your traffic hell holes:

Chicago has an area of 254.53 Sq Miles, Detroit has an area of 142.89 Sq. Miles, and Los Angeles has an area of 506.55 Sq. Miles. Little ole San Antone comes in with a measly 504.64 Sq. Miles. Oh, I see what you mean. SA has about 2 less Sq. miles of area than does Los Angeles. Yup, pretty small.

You're attempting to talk past me with the rest, as that is not the particular part of the discussion I am focusing on. (Betting it would not take 1-1 1/2 hours to get across Detroit in SA traffic.) So, as I said, SA is big in terms of area, but not particularly dense in population, and thank the Good Lord for that.

As an aside, I once worked with a guy from San Francisco. Big Warriors fan that one. Anyway, he stated to me that Oakland and San Francisco could fit with the city limits of San Antonio. Of course, there are more people there.

If you insist on arguing with me, argue the point I'm making, not the one you think I'm making.

[Restless One]

Just did a little math, and IF SA had the Density of SF, we'd have nearly 9.5 million residents. Whew, thankful nobody particularly wants to live here.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by Restless One

Just did a little math, and IF SA had the Density of SF, we'd have nearly 9.5 million residents. Whew, thankful nobody particularly wants to live here.

But think of the skyscrapers.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

But think of the skyscrapers.

At first I read that in the same voice as, "But think of the children!" I was wrong.

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

But think of the skyscrapers.

Might not mean skyscrapers, as there is plenty of space here for the 4-5 story buildings this particular page seems to love. Infill don't you know. Infill all the way to Schertz and Alamo Ranch.

Yeah, with area comes less height, not more.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by Restless One

Might not mean skyscrapers, as there is plenty of space here for the 4-5 story buildings this particular page seems to love. Infill don't you know. Infill all the way to Schertz and Alamo Ranch.

Yeah, with area comes less height, not more.

Sounds like Barcelona. Sign me up!

[Restless One]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

Sounds like Barcelona. Sign me up!

Yeah, I could go for that, with Spanish Tapas bars galore. And the women. Can't leave out the women.

[Restless One]

Seems Barcelona has a nice mix of height and infill. Good call there Spoiler.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...na_collage.JPG

And, of course, their women are equal parts powerful and beautiful.

But then again, Barcelona is only 39 Sq. miles or so in area with a whopping 41,000 persons per Sq. mile. Might be hard to replicate over 500 plus Sq. miles of area.