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  #4501  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 1:50 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Delaware County could internally work on that issue (combining municipalities within the county), not sure how absorbing them into Philadelphia (this day in age) would be benefit them or Philadelphia.

Philadelphia is a great city, but has a lot of issues, so the idea of annexation is silly. The region can grow as one without being absorbed into Philadelphia.

Separately, Philadelphia is capable of another supertall within 50 years... I guess this convo stems back to that?
It'll never happen so this is all purely hypothetical. But really? You don't see how absorbing a bunch of towns that are almost entirely comprised of populations with higher average incomes would benefit Philadelphia?

I mean, the benefit for Philadelphia is obvious. The average income for city residents would skyrocket, property tax income would surge and improve city schools, along with basically every other city service.
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  #4502  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 2:44 AM
reparcsyks reparcsyks is offline
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It'll never happen so this is all purely hypothetical. But really? You don't see how absorbing a bunch of towns that are almost entirely comprised of populations with higher average incomes would benefit Philadelphia?

I mean, the benefit for Philadelphia is obvious. The average income for city residents would skyrocket, property tax income would surge and improve city schools, along with basically every other city service.
I remember Toronto did this in the mid-90s. Overnight they became a mega city - I believe the 4th largest city in N. America.

“On January 1, 1998, Toronto was greatly enlarged, not through traditional annexations, but as an amalgamation of the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto and its six lower-tier constituent municipalities: East York, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York, and the original city itself. They were dissolved by an act of the Government of Ontario, and formed into a single-tier City of Toronto (colloquially dubbed the "megacity") replacing all six governments.”
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  #4503  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 2:05 PM
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
It'll never happen so this is all purely hypothetical. But really? You don't see how absorbing a bunch of towns that are almost entirely comprised of populations with higher average incomes would benefit Philadelphia?

I mean, the benefit for Philadelphia is obvious. The average income for city residents would skyrocket, property tax income would surge and improve city schools, along with basically every other city service.
For about a month and until those people move.

I know that we are discussing hypotheticals but the amount of things that would need to fall in line and then stay in line with this scenario would be borderline impossible.
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  #4504  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 2:41 PM
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mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
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In a hypothetical scenario, the best outcome for Philly and the suburbs would be to ditch the city county and move towards a government closer to London/NYC, where you have large city limits encompassing several smaller municipalities surrounding the big city. Either do it with counties like New York has or boroughs (in the extreme sense) like London has.

Then, the suburbs could be sold on this idea as being able to keep their taxes, smaller local governments, etc. mostly the same, but have a say in how Philly is run. You sell it to the city by arguing that it would increase the tax base in both sheer numbers and in wealth. Also makes it harder for any one set of people to control the government as you have so many mouths to feed (would make mayoral races a lot more competitive for both parties, no?).

It would never happen, but it needs to. It has become evident that the current system where the suburbs benefit from their proximity to the city without representation or taxation isn’t really working.
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  #4505  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 10:32 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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In a hypothetical scenario, the best outcome for Philly and the suburbs would be to ditch the city county and move towards a government closer to London/NYC, where you have large city limits encompassing several smaller municipalities surrounding the big city. Either do it with counties like New York has or boroughs (in the extreme sense) like London has.

Then, the suburbs could be sold on this idea as being able to keep their taxes, smaller local governments, etc. mostly the same, but have a say in how Philly is run. You sell it to the city by arguing that it would increase the tax base in both sheer numbers and in wealth. Also makes it harder for any one set of people to control the government as you have so many mouths to feed (would make mayoral races a lot more competitive for both parties, no?).

It would never happen, but it needs to. It has become evident that the current system where the suburbs benefit from their proximity to the city without representation or taxation isn’t really working.
I completely agree with you regarding why it needs to happen, and think that maintaining the existing county governments to operate as smaller regional governments within the greater whole is probably the best way to sell it to the suburbs. But the reason why I say it will never happen is because I don't think your sales pitch works in the suburbs. Deep down everyone in the suburbs knows they already have a say in how the city is run.

Just look at that stupid KOP line as a perfect example. Our city public transit agency is already run by the suburbs where they implement self serving vanity projects instead of spending that money in the actual core of the city where it would serve many times more riders.

Suburbanites who operate businesses that employ lots of workers in Philadelphia already get plenty of attention from city politicians and play a significant role in determining who leads this city in the form of a the sizable amount of money they pour into our political races.

Their current deal is too good. They reap all of the benefits of their proximity to Philadelphia with virtually none of the downside. Some surbanites can be in center city quicker than a lot of residents who actually live in the city. And yet they pay none of the costs associated with being at the center of 6 million person metro. Those are problems that only Philadelphians have to worry about paying for.

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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
For about a month and until those people move.
I don't think the suburbs would willingly choose to become a part of Philadelphia. So again it'll never happen, if it did though, you really think people would move away? I'm sure some would, but at the end of the day, I don't think most people would leave their homes and their communities because some of their tax dollars now go to paying teachers and fire fighters and police officers in the nearby city that many suburban residents travel to frequently.
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  #4506  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 5:41 AM
mja mja is offline
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I don't think the suburbs would willingly choose to become a part of Philadelphia. So again it'll never happen, if it did though, you really think people would move away? I'm sure some would, but at the end of the day, I don't think most people would leave their homes and their communities because some of their tax dollars now go to paying teachers and fire fighters and police officers in the nearby city that many suburban residents travel to frequently.
Yeah, I really don't see Chad and Buffy leaving their mansion on the Main Line to go live out in the sticks because now they're in Philadelphia. The whole point is suburban living but with quick and easy access to the city and the amenities and services generated by its critical mass. That's where all the value is.

Still, it's not happening, or at least not for a long damned time without some precipitating event I can't even fathom.
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  #4507  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 12:08 PM
Mayormccheese Mayormccheese is offline
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I completely agree with you regarding why it needs to happen, and think that maintaining the existing county governments to operate as smaller regional governments within the greater whole is probably the best way to sell it to the suburbs. But the reason why I say it will never happen is because I don't think your sales pitch works in the suburbs. Deep down everyone in the suburbs knows they already have a say in how the city is run.

Just look at that stupid KOP line as a perfect example. Our city public transit agency is already run by the suburbs where they implement self serving vanity projects instead of spending that money in the actual core of the city where it would serve many times more riders.

Suburbanites who operate businesses that employ lots of workers in Philadelphia already get plenty of attention from city politicians and play a significant role in determining who leads this city in the form of a the sizable amount of money they pour into our political races.

Their current deal is too good. They reap all of the benefits of their proximity to Philadelphia with virtually none of the downside. Some surbanites can be in center city quicker than a lot of residents who actually live in the city. And yet they pay none of the costs associated with being at the center of 6 million person metro. Those are problems that only Philadelphians have to worry about paying for.



I don't think the suburbs would willingly choose to become a part of Philadelphia. So again it'll never happen, if it did though, you really think people would move away? I'm sure some would, but at the end of the day, I don't think most people would leave their homes and their communities because some of their tax dollars now go to paying teachers and fire fighters and police officers in the nearby city that many suburban residents travel to frequently.
Multiple city council members are rumored to live in the suburbs. The suburbs totally have an outsized voice in city politics.
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  #4508  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 1:53 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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Multiple city council members are rumored to live in the suburbs. The suburbs totally have an outsized voice in city politics.
that would be a huge risk and hard to keep contained. You got any evidence or journalism out there that backs up this claim?
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  #4509  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 2:00 PM
JohnIII JohnIII is offline
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There is a lot of talk about annexing areas into Philadelphia; Philadelphiua did it before in 1854 but this is not something that is in the past. Houston did this very thing in the 1940's and 1990's the last time was 1996. Houston annexed a lot of land between 1980-2000.

One reason why Houston is the city it is now is because they annexed territory. It helped that city by increasing their tax base; getting Federal Dollars and attracting business to that city. Why wouldn't that very same thing benefit Philadelphia when people around the country already love coming to Philadelphia.

Houston and Phoenix annex areas; grew their populations and get dollars; in the case of Houston its attracted business as well.

For Philadelphia annexing areas has been a subject that has been talked about since the 1980s; if we want what others want; maybe we need to consider doing what they do and maybe who knows; maybe we can benefit the way have benefited as well.

If we can do it and if the benefits can be self evident; why not; especially in the case where the city would annex an area that is incremental because in that method all can see whether the venture works for Philadelphia or not.

Philadelphia has rough areas that need to be cleaned up however the biggest question is how? Where does the city find the capital for it as well as the most effective method? we can not be like Baron Haussmann in Paris; we can be far more humane. It takes ability and the will to make such things happen; but if we can attract Federal Dollars and more Business that could be a huge step in the right direction.
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  #4510  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 2:02 PM
Mayormccheese Mayormccheese is offline
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that would be a huge risk and hard to keep contained. You got any evidence or journalism out there that backs up this claim?
No obviously not, I said rumored lol
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  #4511  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
I don't think the suburbs would willingly choose to become a part of Philadelphia. So again it'll never happen, if it did though, you really think people would move away? I'm sure some would, but at the end of the day, I don't think most people would leave their homes and their communities because some of their tax dollars now go to paying teachers and fire fighters and police officers in the nearby city that many suburban residents travel to frequently.
They would for the reasons I state below. Also, in many municipalities you have former city dwellers (and in some cases they were a part of many generations in the city) who left for very specific reasons and would not want those same issues again.

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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Yeah, I really don't see Chad and Buffy leaving their mansion on the Main Line to go live out in the sticks because now they're in Philadelphia. The whole point is suburban living but with quick and easy access to the city and the amenities and services generated by its critical mass. That's where all the value is.
That's a part of the value but anymore not even the biggest, as you can get a lot in many 'burbs now. The rest is found within the quality of life issues: schools, trash services, police who actually show up and take their jobs seriously, etc.
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  #4512  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 2:18 PM
MadhattersLT MadhattersLT is offline
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the people who live in the suburbs want nothing to do with living in the city, that’s why they live in the suburbs. you can spin whatever economic info you want, people who live in Upper Dublin prob don’t care what happens to Philadelphia so don’t want to be associated with it.
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  #4513  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 3:21 PM
MetaldDeth81 MetaldDeth81 is offline
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As someone that lives in one of the "inner ring" suburbs of Havertown that would be a sensical expansion option with Darby Creek/Blue Rt being a 'natural' border.

Any expansion/annexation would pretty much have to be "in name only", at least in any near-future horizon. As had been mentioned before, it would probably take some extreme event to even have Havertownies consider the option.

Our municipal services are pretty well-oiled compared to City services and I'm sure residents would fight HARD on watering down/sharing resources (trash/police/schools).

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Originally Posted by MadhattersLT View Post
the people who live in the suburbs want nothing to do with living in the city, that’s why they live in the suburbs. you can spin whatever economic info you want, people who live in Upper Dublin prob don’t care what happens to Philadelphia so don’t want to be associated with it.
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  #4514  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 4:19 PM
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Knight Hospitaller Knight Hospitaller is offline
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As someone that lives in one of the "inner ring" suburbs of Havertown that would be a sensical expansion option with Darby Creek/Blue Rt being a 'natural' border.

Any expansion/annexation would pretty much have to be "in name only", at least in any near-future horizon. As had been mentioned before, it would probably take some extreme event to even have Havertownies consider the option.

Our municipal services are pretty well-oiled compared to City services and I'm sure residents would fight HARD on watering down/sharing resources (trash/police/schools).
Hell, we don't even want to be part of Upper Darby Twp, let alone the City. If I want to live in the city with a big family and enjoy a lack of service/value for my tax dollar (with lower property values to compensate), I only need to move to Overbrook near many friends there.
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  #4515  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 4:35 PM
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True...none of the suburbs really want to be part of Philly because at the end of the day big city mean big and sometimes messy politics and all the problems of a big city. Everything is amplify in a big city. There's a reason why they call most suburbs, sleepy towns...more suburb residents can make a quicker QOL impact and chose to live in the suburbs so they don't have to deal with BS if it affects their families, kids, etc. But to each their own where they choose to live. It's good to have options in life.
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  #4516  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 5:57 PM
iamrobk iamrobk is offline
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that would be a huge risk and hard to keep contained. You got any evidence or journalism out there that backs up this claim?
Not that it's important at this point, but several years ago I'd heard that Jannie Blackwell either lived in the suburbs or at least didn't live in her district (where she was rumored to actually live, I forget). This rumor is backed up by the fact that she used, by far, more gas than any other member of City Council. https://www.cityandstatepa.com/polic...stions/364757/
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  #4517  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 6:07 PM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
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This isn't really worth talking about and rehashing for the millionth time imo. It's never gonna happen so can we get back on topic or...
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  #4518  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 9:04 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Changing the topic. O boy, this is gonna turn into a big fight...

Protesters at University City Townhomes say they will camp out for as long as they need to in solidarity with displaced residents

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20220711.html

An encampment has taken root at the University City Townhomes, a show of solidarity with the West Philadelphia residents facing displacement after the sale and redevelopment of the property.

Around a dozen tents set up on the lawn of the Townhomes, the site of ongoing protests since the announcement of the planned sale and demolition of the 2.7 acre affordable housing complex at 40th and Market streets. As many as 69 primarily Black and Hispanic families are set to be displaced.

Many of the families have lived there for decades, protesters said Monday morning.
On Saturday, residents invited supporters to set up the encampment, at the tail-end of a daylong rally and party. Tenants and supporters said the encampment would stay on the lawn as long as the fight would continue.

“This is residents saying: This ends here. This ends now. This is where we rise up,” said Melvin Hairston, who has lived at University City Townhomes for 28 years.

The University of Pennsylvania, the rumored buyers of the property, was still formulating a response to the encampment, according to a university official

On Monday morning, chants of “Housing is a human right” rang out steps away from the 40th Street trolley station, with supporters donning T-shirts emblazoned with “Save the UC Townhomes.” Protesters draped a new sign over the University City Townhomes sign that read “The People’s Townhomes.”

Last year, IBID Associates, the family partnership that owns the townhomes, announced plans to end its federal affordable housing contract and sell the property to developers. Originally, tenants of the 69 units had until July 8 to move out, but residents now have until Sept. 7 to leave to accommodate the arrival of federal housing vouchers for displaced tenants.

Several residents on Monday told The Inquirer that IBID has not met with them, sending an intermediary to meetings instead. A spokesperson for IBID said Monday that the owners had been providing tenants with relocation services since last July.

“This does not — I believe — have to go this way,” said Sheldon Davids, a resident of the townhomes for 13 years. “This displacement is going to affect too many people. Have too much follow-up effects for us to take it lightly. And this is a phenomenon that’s not just affecting us. It’s affecting people all over the country.”
The townhomes are in the Black Bottom neighborhood, a historically Black neighborhood that has gradually gentrified.

In a statement, the property owners called Monday’s protest and the encampment “ill-advised.”
“The owners of 3900 Market Street are in the process of reviewing the unfortunate and ill-advised decision by a group of protesters to occupy a portion of the premises,” IBID said in a statement. “To be clear, while we respect their right to protest and express their opinions, these individuals are trespassing on private property and have no legal right to assemble on the site or access public utilities there.”

The encampment included people like sisters Jannie and Yolanda Mitchell, who camped out on the townhomes’ lawn in tents, a symbol, Davids said, of insufficient shelter. The sisters know full well the impact of homelessness and what could happen without a safety net. Jannie lived at the homeless encampment stationed outside the Philadelphia Housing Authority, dubbed “Camp Teddy,” in 2020.

“When you start putting people displaced out of homes on the streets, what do you get? Disgruntled individuals walking the community. It becomes a mental health issue. You might have mothers turn to drugs to try to cope. How do you feed your kids if you don’t have shelter? You might turn to crime,” said Yolanda.

“This issue creates 10 different issues that need to be addressed across the board,” she added.
A spokesperson for the city’s Office of Homeless Services said those camping out are “not a homeless encampment — yet.” Often, people who are experiencing homelessness will drift toward protest encampments because they believe the spots will attract food and services that will help them, said Stephanie Sena, a Villanova University professor and expert on homelessness.

She added that several housing activists who were involved in the homeless encampment on the Benjamin Franklin Parkway two years ago appear to be attaching themselves to the West Philadelphia protest.
Residents, along with their supporters, were prepared to camp out and fight as long as they needed to, said Hairston.
“They’re trying to move us out with no place to go,” said Hairston, who lives with and takes of his 68-year-old mother. “Housing inflation is up. People are on fixed incomes. And they’ve been stripping low income, affordable housing from these communities of Philadelphia for well over a half a century.”

Services provided by the property owners included ensuring tenants could secure federal Tenant Protection Vouchers, IBID spokesperson Kevin Feeley said. The vouchers can be used to pay for other affordable housing in Philadelphia and outside of the city, the spokesperson said.

But residents like Davids said the fear is that a shortage of affordable housing means that displaced residents will ultimately have nowhere to go, even with vouchers. What little affordable housing is available is often stymied by many Philadelphia landlords’ reluctance to accept housing vouchers.

And ultimately, many tenants who have raised children and built lives at the townhomes will now potentially have to uproot everything they know to rebuild in a place they’ve never lived before, said Davids.

“Where are we going to send our kids to school?” he said. “Schools have been already closed around the community. People have had to adjust and find alternative places to send their children to. They’re going to have to do that again. Not only are they going to have do that again, but worse: they have to do that again in a community with which they’re unfamiliar.”
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  #4519  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Changing the topic. O boy, this is gonna turn into a big fight...

Protesters at University City Townhomes say they will camp out for as long as they need to in solidarity with displaced residents

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20220711.html

An encampment has taken root at the University City Townhomes, a show of solidarity with the West Philadelphia residents facing displacement after the sale and redevelopment of the property.

Around a dozen tents set up on the lawn of the Townhomes, the site of ongoing protests since the announcement of the planned sale and demolition of the 2.7 acre affordable housing complex at 40th and Market streets. As many as 69 primarily Black and Hispanic families are set to be displaced.

Many of the families have lived there for decades, protesters said Monday morning.
On Saturday, residents invited supporters to set up the encampment, at the tail-end of a daylong rally and party. Tenants and supporters said the encampment would stay on the lawn as long as the fight would continue.

“This is residents saying: This ends here. This ends now. This is where we rise up,” said Melvin Hairston, who has lived at University City Townhomes for 28 years.

The University of Pennsylvania, the rumored buyers of the property, was still formulating a response to the encampment, according to a university official

On Monday morning, chants of “Housing is a human right” rang out steps away from the 40th Street trolley station, with supporters donning T-shirts emblazoned with “Save the UC Townhomes.” Protesters draped a new sign over the University City Townhomes sign that read “The People’s Townhomes.”

Last year, IBID Associates, the family partnership that owns the townhomes, announced plans to end its federal affordable housing contract and sell the property to developers. Originally, tenants of the 69 units had until July 8 to move out, but residents now have until Sept. 7 to leave to accommodate the arrival of federal housing vouchers for displaced tenants.

Several residents on Monday told The Inquirer that IBID has not met with them, sending an intermediary to meetings instead. A spokesperson for IBID said Monday that the owners had been providing tenants with relocation services since last July.

“This does not — I believe — have to go this way,” said Sheldon Davids, a resident of the townhomes for 13 years. “This displacement is going to affect too many people. Have too much follow-up effects for us to take it lightly. And this is a phenomenon that’s not just affecting us. It’s affecting people all over the country.”
The townhomes are in the Black Bottom neighborhood, a historically Black neighborhood that has gradually gentrified.

In a statement, the property owners called Monday’s protest and the encampment “ill-advised.”
“The owners of 3900 Market Street are in the process of reviewing the unfortunate and ill-advised decision by a group of protesters to occupy a portion of the premises,” IBID said in a statement. “To be clear, while we respect their right to protest and express their opinions, these individuals are trespassing on private property and have no legal right to assemble on the site or access public utilities there.”

The encampment included people like sisters Jannie and Yolanda Mitchell, who camped out on the townhomes’ lawn in tents, a symbol, Davids said, of insufficient shelter. The sisters know full well the impact of homelessness and what could happen without a safety net. Jannie lived at the homeless encampment stationed outside the Philadelphia Housing Authority, dubbed “Camp Teddy,” in 2020.

“When you start putting people displaced out of homes on the streets, what do you get? Disgruntled individuals walking the community. It becomes a mental health issue. You might have mothers turn to drugs to try to cope. How do you feed your kids if you don’t have shelter? You might turn to crime,” said Yolanda.

“This issue creates 10 different issues that need to be addressed across the board,” she added.
A spokesperson for the city’s Office of Homeless Services said those camping out are “not a homeless encampment — yet.” Often, people who are experiencing homelessness will drift toward protest encampments because they believe the spots will attract food and services that will help them, said Stephanie Sena, a Villanova University professor and expert on homelessness.

She added that several housing activists who were involved in the homeless encampment on the Benjamin Franklin Parkway two years ago appear to be attaching themselves to the West Philadelphia protest.
Residents, along with their supporters, were prepared to camp out and fight as long as they needed to, said Hairston.
“They’re trying to move us out with no place to go,” said Hairston, who lives with and takes of his 68-year-old mother. “Housing inflation is up. People are on fixed incomes. And they’ve been stripping low income, affordable housing from these communities of Philadelphia for well over a half a century.”

Services provided by the property owners included ensuring tenants could secure federal Tenant Protection Vouchers, IBID spokesperson Kevin Feeley said. The vouchers can be used to pay for other affordable housing in Philadelphia and outside of the city, the spokesperson said.

But residents like Davids said the fear is that a shortage of affordable housing means that displaced residents will ultimately have nowhere to go, even with vouchers. What little affordable housing is available is often stymied by many Philadelphia landlords’ reluctance to accept housing vouchers.

And ultimately, many tenants who have raised children and built lives at the townhomes will now potentially have to uproot everything they know to rebuild in a place they’ve never lived before, said Davids.

“Where are we going to send our kids to school?” he said. “Schools have been already closed around the community. People have had to adjust and find alternative places to send their children to. They’re going to have to do that again. Not only are they going to have do that again, but worse: they have to do that again in a community with which they’re unfamiliar.”
I sympathize with their plight, but the incentive for the developer to build this in the first place was an understanding that at some point they would be allowed to sell the property and capitalize on their investment. I’m sorry that your neighborhood is changing, that crime is going down, and that the city is improving. I’m sorry that Drexel redeveloped the abandoned school and increased the city’s tax base and now Penn is redeveloping this area. Genuinely I’m sorry that you feel left behind, I really am. But unfortunately people have to move, and that’s just how the world works. My family grew up on SSDI so I come at this from a place of understanding. If you want housing security, increase your means and secure it yourself. I’m sure I’ll get raked over the coals for this but that’s my two cents on the issue.
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  #4520  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2022, 1:22 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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If you want housing security, increase your means and secure it yourself.
Ghoulish rhetoric like this is a great way to get people to disagree with you.
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