PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Even so. It's not like NY has 1 of these stores. It has like 6 Louis Vuittons, 4 Guccis, 4 Hermes, etc. (My numbers aren't exact, but many of these stores have outposts on Madison Avenue, Soho, Hudson Yards, and the Financial District. Some are also starting to open in Williamsburg.

So yes, we can support 1 even if we have 1 in the suburbs already. (They also have stores in the NYC area in Short Hills (Mall), Americana Manhassett, and in West Chester County or Greenwich.

I was just in Lisbon. It has very low buying power compared to Philadelphia. Average Portuguese incomes are a fraction of US incomes and the prices of those goods are for the most part normalized globally regardless of income. Lisbon had an Hermes, Marni, Rimowa, etc etc etc.

I mostly agree. I mean, maybe you could make the argument that Greater NYC is just in a completely different league of its own and can demand multiple location luxury retailers but on the other hand it also tends to retain them over time. Conversely, it seems like a revolving door on Walnut. One store comes in, another goes out. We had a Zara, Banana Republic, Coach, Burberry etc but they don’t seem particularly eager to come back. Is it because they must only have a Walnut address or leave the city entirely?

As I’ve mentioned, the stretch of Walnut west of Rittenhouse Sq really should start being primed for high end retail at this point. I also think there’s potential for Locust St to some degree and not to mention any of the vertical, numbered streets that national retailers seem to forget about.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I get the frustration / confusion. Even New Orleans has a Saks downtown, and that is rough downtown (great food though). Center City could certainly support another full-line department store (Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's) because they offer a great mix of mid to high-end offerings. Even Saks or Neiman Marcus would do well.

Yeah, I honestly thought with the opening of The W we’d start seeing some more retail traction within the surrounding blocks, but it’s still been rather slow to say the least. For the life of me, I can’t figure out why they can’t find a tenant for The Drexel Building. There has to be something that would be suited for it. It’s become a white elephant at this point.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yeah, I honestly thought with the opening of The W we’d start seeing some more retail traction within the surrounding blocks, but it’s still been rather slow to say the least. For the life of me, I can’t figure out why they can’t find a tenant for The Drexel Building. There has to be something that would be suited for it. It’s become a white elephant at this point.

I heard through the grapevine that there is active construction in the Drexel Building, and a permit mentioning a health club?... Can't be Equinox.

https://li.phila.gov/property-histor...GM-2021-014138

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I heard through the grapevine that there is active construction in the Drexel Building, and a permit mentioning a health club?... Can't be Equinox.

https://li.phila.gov/property-histor...GM-2021-014138

From eclipse:

https://eclipse.phila.gov/phillylmsp...ctId=424471440

https://eclipse.phila.gov/phillylmsp...ctId=490000774

And from the Historical Commission July staff report:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20220805...aff-report.pdf

The following permit decisions are or were under appeal at the Board of License & Inspection
Review (BLIR):
• 1435-41 Walnut Street
o At its September 2021 meeting, the Historical Commission denied an application
to enlarge window openings at 1435-41 Walnut Street. The property owner
appealed the decision to the BLIR. The Historical Commission submitted its
official record to the BLIR on 3 December 2021. The BLIR scheduled a hearing
for 14 December 2021 but then postponed it. The hearing is currently scheduled
for 20 September 2022.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

From eclipse:

https://eclipse.phila.gov/phillylmsp...ctId=424471440

https://eclipse.phila.gov/phillylmsp...ctId=490000774

And from the Historical Commission July staff report:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20220805...aff-report.pdf

The following permit decisions are or were under appeal at the Board of License & Inspection
Review (BLIR):
• 1435-41 Walnut Street
o At its September 2021 meeting, the Historical Commission denied an application
to enlarge window openings at 1435-41 Walnut Street. The property owner
appealed the decision to the BLIR. The Historical Commission submitted its
official record to the BLIR on 3 December 2021. The BLIR scheduled a hearing
for 14 December 2021 but then postponed it. The hearing is currently scheduled
for 20 September 2022.

Ugh, sounds like it’s been wrapped up in squabbling. I don’t really see the need to enlarge/lower the windows. They’re pretty big as is and any retail display can clearly be seen while walking by or from across the street. Their placement is somewhat similar to the old BR store.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

From eclipse:

https://eclipse.phila.gov/phillylmsp...ctId=424471440

https://eclipse.phila.gov/phillylmsp...ctId=490000774

And from the Historical Commission July staff report:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20220805...aff-report.pdf

The following permit decisions are or were under appeal at the Board of License & Inspection
Review (BLIR):
• 1435-41 Walnut Street
o At its September 2021 meeting, the Historical Commission denied an application
to enlarge window openings at 1435-41 Walnut Street. The property owner
appealed the decision to the BLIR. The Historical Commission submitted its
official record to the BLIR on 3 December 2021. The BLIR scheduled a hearing
for 14 December 2021 but then postponed it. The hearing is currently scheduled
for 20 September 2022.

Thanks! Any info on the owner or tenant beyond the alterations?

[summersm343]

1. Skyhigh07 - LOVE the idea of making a luxury retail stretch from say 19th Street to 21st Street along Walnut. Really smart idea. A lot of those buildings along that stretch don’t have the original ground floor either so could easily be repurposed into luxury retail spaces.

2. Center City will get luxury retailers. It’s only a matter of time. It’s also a bit of a “will get luxury retailers again” since some luxury retailers did have a presence in Center City off and on throughout the decades. If Philadelphia just continues to build up, get wealthier, attract large corporations and life science companies and attracts tourists, lowers crime, clean up the streets, etc… it’s only a matter of time.

3. There’s really no reason at all that some retailers in KOP would not be successful in Center City at this present moment. Luxury retailers like Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Hugo Boss, Burberry, Club Monaco, Coach, Cole Haan, David Yurman, Longchamp, Marc Jacobs, Saint Laurent, Ralph Lauren, Stuart Weitzman, Ted Baker and Tory Burch. I’m telling you these stores could open or reopen in todays Center City and be successful. If we create a luxury retailer stretch between 19th and 21st (to start) along Walnut, pepper it with restaurants and cafes as well as these stores… the city’s image would change overnight. Continue to clean up the city, lower crime, build up the city and attract more wealth, tourists and companies… then it’s only a matter of time.

4. Nordstrom and Bloomingdale’s at the least would be successful in today’s Center City. The issue of course is space for a large department store like this. There’s really no large desirable spots at the moment to be honest. Saks could also be successful in the city if they had the space, and relocated their Bala Cynwyd store to King of Prussia Mall, then they could definitely open a second store in the city.

5. If Allan Domb could clear out the entire Drexel building at 15th and Walnut, this would be an awesome location for a Restoration Hardware. They would really need the entire building though. Nordstrom and Bloomingdale’s could locate at opposite ends of Broad and Walnut. Nordstrom in the Bellevue and Bloomingdale’s in the old Wawa space plus a few floors above that. Saks could go in a few floors of a new building at 20th and Walnut, or 22nd and Walnut.

One day y’all… it’ll happen. Keep dreaming.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Ugh, sounds like it’s been wrapped up in squabbling. I don’t really see the need to enlarge/lower the windows. They’re pretty big as is and any retail display can clearly be seen while walking by or from across the street. Their placement is somewhat similar to the old BR store.

Right, while ownership felt lower window openings would make the space more attractive to a retail tenant, they didn't have any prospective tenant lined up at that time. The commission generally felt that major alterations couldn't be justified, particularly since there was no specific tenant requesting such alterations.

From the meeting minutes:
The Historical Commission concluded that:
 The proposed alteration should not be approved without a tenant who demonstrates
a need for the alteration.

[cardeza]

MOre info on Sixers real estate plans

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20220808.html

[Boku]

Originally Posted by cardeza

MOre info on Sixers real estate plans

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20220808.html

The Sixers’ ambitions for Market Street go well beyond building a sports arena

Ever since the Sixers revealed that they’re planning to move their home court to the flagging Fashion District shopping mall on Market Street, people have been referring to the new venue as an arena. But, these days, sports franchises don’t want to waste their time just building large rooms where fans can watch athletes perform. Owners now see themselves as big-time real estate developers.

The Sixers’ arena is really the starting point for a major urban redevelopment project.

The Sixers’ development group — Josh Harris, David Blitzer, David J. Adelman and HB Sports & Entertainment — has been stingy with details about this massive undertaking. But after an hour of talking with Adelman last week, the outlines of their real estate ambitions finally began to emerge. The 18,500-seat arena at 11th and Market would serve as the anchor for a new entertainment district studded with restaurants, bars, shops and, eventually, apartment towers.

[...]

But what the Sixers have in mind is so big, it’s likely to transform that entire quadrant of Center City beyond recognition. It would also enable the owners to earn a whole lot more money than they now pull in from ticket sales at the Wells Fargo Center.

[...]

The Sixers will also want a piece of any residential development around the arena. Although the NBA does not allow towers on top of its arenas for security reasons, the Sixers expect to partner with the Fashion District’s owners to erect apartments above the remaining portion of the mall, which has the structural strength to support a tower. Macerich/PREIT also have amassed large holdings on the south side of Market Street, another likely spot for housing.

[thoughtcriminal]

I was wondering when Inga would weigh in on this.
She mentions at one point that the Flyers would eventually become a tenant of the sixers in this arena. I really don't see that happening, not as long as they are owned by Comcast.
She is right that the stadium district is dull and car-oriented, but that should be a call to develop the area more, not necessarily a call to relocate teams to other parts of the city.
That said, I do think the 10th street arena is a good idea. I remain skeptical that it will happen, but we'll see.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Even so. It's not like NY has 1 of these stores. It has like 6 Louis Vuittons, 4 Guccis, 4 Hermes, etc. (My numbers aren't exact, but many of these stores have outposts on Madison Avenue, Soho, Hudson Yards, and the Financial District. Some are also starting to open in Williamsburg.

So yes, we can support 1 even if we have 1 in the suburbs already. (They also have stores in the NYC area in Short Hills (Mall), Americana Manhassett, and in West Chester County or Greenwich.

I was just in Lisbon. It has very low buying power compared to Philadelphia. Average Portuguese incomes are a fraction of US incomes and the prices of those goods are for the most part normalized globally regardless of income. Lisbon had an Hermes, Marni, Rimowa, etc etc etc.

Lisbon is also not 90 minutes from NYC (Madrid is like Philly-Boston distance?). You mention NYC as a comparison but it's also a cause. I think people forget what a double edged sword being so close is.

What I'm trying to say is that KoP is bad and shouldn't exist.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Lisbon is also not 90 minutes from NYC (Madrid is like Philly-Boston distance?). You mention NYC as a comparison but it's also a cause. I think people forget what a double edged sword being so close is.

What I'm trying to say is that KoP is bad and shouldn't exist.

I'm with you. Also, a fairly important aspect that I believe gets overlooked with ultra luxury brands is that a large % of sales are driven by foreign tourists. I have seen figures that point to International visitors spending upwards of 4 times as much money per visit vs. a domestic overnight visitor. That makes a difference in Philly considering the lack of international visitors.

[McBane]

^ This is short sighted. KoP was built at a time when a lot (most?) of the city's wealth moved to the suburbs; malls in general were flourishing while the industrialized cities of the northeast and midwest were suffering from white flight.

Now that the city is finally catching up in terms of concentrated wealth, you can't just go back and say KoP was a mistake. At the time, it made perfect sense and today, KoP is entrenched.

The question is: is there room in this region for two high end shopping destinations? I think yes.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I was wondering when Inga would weigh in on this.
She mentions at one point that the Flyers would eventually become a tenant of the sixers in this arena. I really don't see that happening, not as long as they are owned by Comcast.

Yeah, that quote makes me wonder how much this professor in Michigan actually knows about the situation and the teams. Seems strange for Inga to even include it due to the very low likelihood of it being true.

She is right that the stadium district is dull and car-oriented, but that should be a call to develop the area more, not necessarily a call to relocate teams to other parts of the city.
That said, I do think the 10th street arena is a good idea. I remain skeptical that it will happen, but we'll see.

Agreed. I honestly think in the meantime, if nothing else is happening, some of the lots directly next to the subway need to be turned into a festival grounds for the 2026 festivities and events.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by McBane

^ This is short sighted. KoP was built at a time when a lot (most?) of the city's wealth moved to the suburbs; malls in general were flourishing while the industrialized cities of the northeast and midwest were suffering from white flight.

Now that the city is finally catching up in terms of concentrated wealth, you can't just go back and say KoP was a mistake. At the time, it made perfect sense and today, KoP is entrenched.

I think it's perfectly fine to say that KOP was a mistake, as the redlining, "urban renewal", and construction of highways through urban cities that drove white flight was a grave mistake. We have to live with KOP now, but I'm also of the opinion that it shouldn't exist. It rose to prominence during a time where the federal government was essentially subsidizing the construction of suburbs at the expense of established urban areas. If not for that influx of capital and subsidization of car culture, KOP would have little reason to exist.

I do agree that the region has room for two high-end shopping areas, however. Retailers consistently dismiss the amount of wealth being amassed within city limits.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I think it's perfectly fine to say that KOP was a mistake, as the redlining, "urban renewal", and construction of highways through urban cities that drove white flight was a grave mistake. We have to live with KOP now, but I'm also of the opinion that it shouldn't exist. It rose to prominence during a time where the federal government was essentially subsidizing the construction of suburbs at the expense of established urban areas. If not for that influx of capital and subsidization of car culture, KOP would have little reason to exist.

I do agree that the region has room for two high-end shopping areas, however. Retailers consistently dismiss the amount of wealth being amassed within city limits.

KOP is a mistake in the same way that the rest of car-centric America was a mistake. Disregarding it as a "product of the times" is far to convenient.

KOP is a mistake and shouldn't exist. KOP Rail is a mistake and shouldn't be built.

[iheartphilly]

^
Pre-pandemic, the KOP mall had 1 billion in annual sales. It is also a tourist destination believe or not, but will be curious to see where the sales numbers land post-pandemic/lockdown. Obvious, online shopping made up for brick and mortar sales, but I would expect some sort of bounce back at the brick and mortar in the coming years since shopping and consumer spending of goods/services make up 70% of our GDP.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by McBane

^ This is short sighted. KoP was built at a time when a lot (most?) of the city's wealth moved to the suburbs; malls in general were flourishing while the industrialized cities of the northeast and midwest were suffering from white flight.

Now that the city is finally catching up in terms of concentrated wealth, you can't just go back and say KoP was a mistake. At the time, it made perfect sense and today, KoP is entrenched.

The question is: is there room in this region for two high end shopping destinations? I think yes.

To be frank, I don't at all think the region can support multiples of high end retailers.

I'm one of the biggest KOP haters, but I will acknowledge that it is probably too late to change the regional dynamics that are currently benefiting that area. I truly think regional planners in philly looked to DC's successes in North Virginia and figured it was just the best bet to super charge the NW part of the metro.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
Pre-pandemic, the KOP mall had 1 billion in annual sales. It is also a tourist destination believe or not, but will be curious to see where the sales numbers land post-pandemic/lockdown. Obvious, online shopping made up for brick and mortar sales, but I would expect some sort of bounce back at the brick and mortar in the coming years since shopping and consumer spending of goods/services make up 70% of our GDP.

I will bet $1K that the KOP mall does not exist in its current form in the year 2050.