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  #1  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 8:17 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Your metro's suburbia before WWII

For Toronto.

Toronto had stopped annexations before WWI. In the 1920s, raw growth of the suburban municipalities began to match that of the city proper.

The City of Toronto south of St. Clair Ave. was pretty much built out by 1920. North Toronto, the last early 20th century annexation (1912) filled up in the 1920s, and the City (35 square miles) was pretty much built out by 1930.

1921

City of Toronto 521,893
Suburban municipalities 89,550
Metro total 611,443
In city 85.4%

1931

City of Toronto 631,207
Suburban municipalities 187,141
Metro total 818,348
In city 77.1%

1941

City of Toronto 667,457
Suburban municipalities 242,471
Metro total 909,928
In city 73.3%

https://southofbloorstreet.blogspot....ropolitan.html

In 1920, York Township (population 57,448) surrounded the city to the north, northeast and west and contained the majority of the suburban population. The southern part was urbanizing while northern parts were rural.

Etobicoke Township 10,443
Leaside 325
Mimico 3,751
New Toronto 20,682
Scarborough Township 11,746
Weston 3,116
York Township 57,448


In the 1920s, several new communities were incorporated, mostly out of York Township. The more rural North York was split off from the urbanized south around Eglinton Avenue (Cedarvale, Oakwood, Mount Dennis etc.). East York to the northeast was split off as well. Forest Hill and Swansea were incorporated in the 1920s. A third western lakeshore suburb, Long Branch, was also incorporated.

By 1930, there were 13 municipalities in the Toronto metropolitan area. They all joined the Metropolitan Toronto federation in 1953, and the map held out until 1967:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_228354503

1931 population

East York Township 36,080
Etobicoke Township 13,769
Forest Hill 5,207
Leaside 938
Long Branch 3,962
Mimico 6,800
New Toronto 7,146
Scarborough Township 20,682
Swansea 5,031
Weston 4,723
York Township 69,593

One interesting to note is that the "favored quarter" North Toronto ended up in the city, while the working class fringe was left out. York and East York, which suffered enormously in the depression applied for annexation in the 1930s, but were turned down.

There's also a change in the 1930s and 1940s. Before 1930, the suburbs were actually more blue collar than the city. But in the 1930s and 1940s, affluent Forest Hill, Leaside and the Kingsway area of Etobicoke grew significantly and by 1951, the city was more blue collar.

1941 population

East York Township 41,021
Etobicoke Township 18,973
Forest Hill 11,757
Leaside 6,183
Long Branch 5,172
Mimico 8,070
New Toronto 9,504
North York Township 22,908
Scarborough Township 24,303
Swansea 6,988
Weston 5,740
York Township 81,052
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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 9:39 PM
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Here is the 1940 United States Census reports. For each state, the reports have a detailed breakdown of individual "metropolitan districts."

The Chicago metropolitan district starts on page 82 of the section with Illinois.

1940 definitions:
Chicago metro: 4,499,126



The 1940 definition combined incorporated places and townships, including most -- but not all -- of Cook County, the eastern half of DuPage County, the SE third of Lake County, IL up to Waukegan, and the urban cluster in Lake County, IN.

Top municipalities in metro Chicago, 1940:

Chicago, 3,396,808
Gary, 111,719
Hammond, 70,184
Oak Park, 66,015
Evanston, 65,389
Cicero, 64,712
East Chicago, 54,637
Berwyn, 48,451
Waukegan, 34,241
Maywood, 26,648
Chicago Heights, 22,461
Harvey, 17,878
Wilmette, 17,226
Blue Island, 16,638
Elmhurst, 15,458
Highland Park, 14,476

Selected others:
Downers Grove, 9,526
Wheaton, 7,389
Niles Center, 7,172 (renamed Skokie that year)
Lake Forest, 6,885
Naperville, 5,272
Steger, 3,369
Lemont, 2,557
Wheeling, 550
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  #3  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 12:27 AM
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^ I always kinda "forget" what a relative beast NW Indiana was pre-war.

In 1940, Lake County, IN already had 293,195 people, making it by far the largest collar county of Cook. The other main collar counties (Dupage, Lake (IL), Will, and Kane) we're all between 100K -130K in 1940 (Mchenry was still HARDCORE corn country in 1940 and certainly wasn't a "collar county" at the time).

But what's even more remarkable is that 246,847 of Lake County, IN's people were located in just Gary, Hammond, East Chicago & Whiting in the top 5th of the county. The southern 80% of the county was still all cornfields sprinkled with a few small towns.

Those GIANT steel mills and their myriad associated industrial plants were the realest fucking deal back in the day when most men actually had to go out and "work" work, not just slowly melt their eyeballs staring into a computer screen for 8+ hours a day as they desk-jockey the decades away.


It's also interesting that the CB included Waukegan in the metro area back then, but not the other significant satellite ring cities of Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, all of whom were a similar distance from the loop and had solid commuter rail connections to the city by then, just as Waukegan.

I wish the CB still used finer-grained townships to define metro areas instead of their extremely clumsy county-based definitions.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 24, 2022 at 1:10 AM.
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  #4  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 1:25 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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So I guess you have your mix of "blue collar residential suburbs that are extension of the city" (Cicero, Berwyn), white collar residential suburbs that are extensions of the city" (Oak Park, Evanston), executive suburbs (Wilmette, Winnetka) and industrial satellites (Chicago Heights, Gary, Waukegan).
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  #5  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 2:35 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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1900 ‘Metropolitan Districts’

Census Bureau first defined a ‘metropolitan district’ in 1910 as a city over 200,000 and all urban minor civil districts (townships, etc.) within roughly 10 miles of that city. They construct an identical measure for cities between 100,000 and 200,000 without calling this latter list ‘metropolitan.’

For both lists, the Census Bureau also published the vintage 1900 numbers for sake of comparison. I have collated them below into a single list, and set a minimum total population threshold of 100,000 for inclusion (Portland, Seattle, and Spokane are thusly dropped, and won’t be above that number for another decade). Italics are core cities which are smaller than their collection of surrounding towns.

1. New York City: 4,607,804
City: 3,437,202
Surroundings: 1,170,602 (includes Jersey City and Newark)

2. Chicago: 1,837,987
City: 1,608,575
Surroundings: 139,412

3. Philadelphia: 1,623,149
City: 1,293,697
Surroundings: 329,452

4. Boston: 1,249,504
City: 560,892
Surroundings: 688,612


5. Pittsburgh: 792,968
City: 451,512
Surroundings: 341,456

6. St. Louis: 649,711
City: 575,238
Surroundings: 74,473

7. Baltimore: 577,670
City: 508,957
Surroundings: 68,713

8. Cincinnati: 495,979
City: 325,902
Surroundings: 170,077

9. San Francisco-Oakland: 473,073
San Francisco: 342,782
Oakland: 66,960
Surroundings: 63,331

10. Cleveland: 420,020
City: 381,768
Surroundings: 38,252

—————

11. Buffalo: 394,031
City: 352,387
Surroundings: 41,644

12. Minneapolis-St. Paul: 372,009
Minneapolis: 202,718
St. Paul: 163,065
Surroundings: 6,226

13. Detroit: 318,967
City: 285,704
Surroundings: 33,263

14. Milwaukee: 324,963
City: 285,315
Surroundings: 39,648

15. Providence: 306,110
City: 175,597
Surroundings: 130,513

16. Washington, D.C. 305,684
City: 278,718
Surroundings: 26,966

17. Albany: 297,094
City: 94,151
Surroundings: 202,943


18. New Orleans: 294,615
City: 287,104
Surroundings: 7,511

19. Louisville: 259,856
City: 204,731
Surroundings: 55,125

—————

20. Lowell: 238,246
City: 94,969
Surroundings: 143,277


21. Scranton: 235,039
City: 102,026
Surroundings: 184,671


22. Kansas City: 228,235
KCMO: 163,752
KCKS: 51,148
Surroundings: 13,065

23. Fall River: 226,231
City: 104,863
Surroundings: 121,868


24. Worcester: 194,653
City: 118,421
Surroundings: 76,232

25. Rochester: 185,409
City: 162,608
Surroundings: 22,801

26. New Haven: 182,315
City: 108,027
Surroundings: 76,232

27. Omaha: 175,133
City: 102,555
Surroundings: 72,578

28. Indianapolis: 173,632
City: 169,164
Surroundings: 4,468

29. Columbus: 164,460
City: 125,560
Surroundings: 38,900

—————

30. Toledo: 164,198
City: 131,822
Surroundings: 32,376

31. Syracuse: 150,853
City: 108,374
Surroundings: 42,479

32. Atlanta: 141,023
City: 89,872
Surroundings: 51,151

33. Memphis: 137,462
City: 102,320
Surroundings: 35,142

34. Denver: 135,809
City: 133,859
Surroundings: 1,950

35. Dayton: 130,917
City: 85,333
Surroundings: 45,584

36. Birmingham: 129,131
City: 38,415
Surroundings: 90,716


37. Nashville: 124,642
City: 85,333
Surroundings: 43,777

38. Los Angeles: 123,062
City: 102,479
Surroundings: 20,583

39. Richmond: 119,645
City: 85,050
Surroundings: 34,595

—————

40. Bridgeport: 116,117
City: 70,996
Surroundings: 45,121

41. Grand Rapids: 114,808
City: 87,565
Surroundings: 27,333




—————

Source: https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmass...1,0.319,0.47,0
__________________
HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Nov 25, 2022 at 5:09 AM.
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  #6  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 3:37 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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1910 ‘Metropolitan Districts’

I have collated the 1910 numbers below into a single list.

Green indicates a positive rank change or growth rate over the national average (21%) in this decade, red indicates negative growth (or negative rank change, but only if there was also negative growth). Italics are metropolitan districts where the suburbs are larger than the core city. New entries are in bold.

1. New York City: 6,474,568
City: 4,766,883
Surroundings: 1,707,685

2. Chicago: 2,446,921
City: 2,185,283
Surroundings: 261,538

3. Philadelphia: 1,972,342
City: 1,549,008
Surroundings: 423,334

4. Boston: 1,520,470
City: 670,585
Surroundings: 849,885


5. Pittsburgh: 1,042,855
City: 533,905
Surroundings: 508,950

6. St. Louis: 828,733
City: 687,029
Surroundings: 141,704

7. San Francisco-Oakland: 686,873
San Francisco: 416,912
Oakland: 150,174
Surroundings: 119,787

8. Baltimore: 658,715
City: 558,485
Surroundings: 100,230

9. Cleveland: 613,270
City: 560,663
Surroundings: 38,252

10. Cincinnati: 563,804
City: 363,591
Surroundings: 200,213

—————

11. Minneapolis-St. Paul: 526,226
Minneapolis: 301,408
St. Paul: 214,744
Surroundings: 10,104

12. Detroit: 500,982
City: 465,766
Surroundings: 35,216

13. Buffalo: 488,661
City: 423,715
Surroundings: 64,946

14. Los Angeles: 438,226
City: 319,198
Surroundings: 119,028

Los Angeles jumped 15 places… essentially a new entry.

15. Milwaukee: 427,175
City: 373,857
Surroundings: 53,318

16. Providence: 395,972
City: 224,326
Surroundings: 171,646

17. Washington, D.C. 367,869
City: 331,069
Surroundings: 36,800

18. Albany: 349,846
City: 100,253
Surroundings: 249,583


19. New Orleans: 348,109
City: 339,075
Surroundings: 9,034

—————

20. Kansas City: 340,446
KCMO: 248,381
KCKS: 82,331
Surroundings: 9,734 (likely due to annexations into one of the two KCs)

21. Scranton: 314,538
City: 119,295
Surroundings: 184,671


22. Louisville: 286,158
City: 223,928
Surroundings: 62,230

23. Fall River: 284,938
City: 119,295
Surroundings: 165,643


24. Lowell: 283,741
City: 106,294
Surroundings: 177,447


25. Rochester: 248,512
City: 218,149
Surroundings: 30,363

26. Seattle: 239,269
City: 237,194
Surroundings: 2,075


27. Indianapolis: 237,783
City: 233,650
Surroundings: 4,133 (likely due to annexations)

28. New Haven: 224,901
City: 133,605
Surroundings: 91,296

29. Worcester: 222,732
City: 145,986
Surroundings: 76,746

—————

30. Columbus: 221,567
City: 181,511
Surroundings: 40,056

31. Denver: 219,314
City: 213,381
Surroundings: 5,933

32. Portland: 215,048
City: 207,214
Surroundings: 7,834


33. Birmingham: 211,961
City: 132,685
Surroundings: 79,276 (city merger)

34. Atlanta: 208,284
City: 154,839
Surroundings: 53,445

35. Omaha: 206,749
City: 124,096
Surroundings: 82,653

36. Toledo: 203,748
City: 168,497
Surroundings: 35,251

37. Syracuse: 183,462
City: 137,249
Surroundings: 46,213

38. Memphis: 175,183
City: 131,105
Surroundings: 44,078

39. Richmond: 168,854
City: 127,628
Surroundings: 41,226

—————

40. Dayton: 163,646
City: 116,577
Surroundings: 47,069

41. Bridgeport: 156,765
City: 102,054
Surroundings: 54,711

42. Nashville: 150,910
City: 110,364
Surroundings: 40,546 (may be an actual loss, rather than a result of the city annexing adjacent land)

43. Grand Rapids: 145,632
City: 112,571
Surroundings: 33,061

44. Spokane: 124,838
City: 104,402
Surroundings: 20,436





—————

Source: https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmass...1,0.319,0.47,0
__________________
HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Nov 25, 2022 at 5:09 AM.
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  #7  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 6:34 AM
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interesting thread! have always wondered what early metropolitan area populations would have looked like.
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 6:40 AM
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So Boston in 1910 was #2 for surrounding area, not surprising given Boston's age and small size. And Pittsburgh is third, it has a lot of industrial satellite boroughs.
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Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 7:02 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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1920 ‘Metropolitan Districts’

In 1930, they changed the method to only include adjacent minor civil divisions that had a qualifying population density. They also included equivalent 1920 numbers when they were available, and those are what is below. In some instances, the Census Bureau did not have a comparable baseline from 1920 for the new definitions, and so I have included those metros with their 1920 numbers using the 1900-1920 definitions. These cities are marked by a double asterisk. The change in method did not result in appreciable changes in most instances, so they are still roughly comparable—they are Los Angeles, New Orleans, Memphis, Houston, Wilmington, and Portland.

Although boundaries changed, I calculated growth rates from the previous available boundaries from 1910 for comparison’s sake. Green indicates a positive rank change or growth rate over the national average (15%) in this decade, red indicates negative growth (or negative rank change, but only if there was also negative growth). Italics are metropolitan districts where the suburbs are larger than the core city. New entries are in bold. For this decade, I will only include as far down the list as is necessary to capture the whole universe of cities in the previous post (excluding those which had population decline, so down to Grand Rapids).

For most of the suburban declines, the changes in the method and annexation are the likely culprits.

Highlights: Spokane drops off the boundaries of my list due to population decline, Detroit booms due to the combustion engine, Pittsburgh is now a minority of its region, Providence and Fall River are combined and New Bedford is added to them, and a number of future notables are new entries, including Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio.

1. New York City: 8,505,404
City: 5,020,048
Surroundings: 3,485,356

2. Chicago: 3,271,557
City: 2,701,705
Surroundings: 569,852

3. Philadelphia: 2,452,076
City: 1,823,779
Surroundings: 628,297

4. Boston: 2,007,425
City: 748,060
Surroundings: 1,259,365


5. Pittsburgh: 1,696,646
City: 625,110
Surroundings: 1,071,536


6. Detroit: 1,252,909
City: 996,321
Surroundings: 250,588

7. St. Louis: 1,071,529
City: 772,702
Surroundings: 298,632

8. San Francisco-Oakland: 964,495
San Francisco: 506,676
Oakland: 216,261
Surroundings: 241,558

9. Cleveland: 935,850
City: 805,442
Surroundings: 130,432

**10. Los Angeles: 879,008
City: 576,673
Surroundings: 302,335

—————

11. Providence-Fall River-New Bedford: 878,708
Providence: 237,595
Fall River: 120,485
New Bedford: 121,217
Surroundings: 399,411

12. Baltimore: 817,646
City: 733,826
Surroundings: 83,820 (metro definition changes likely contributed to this)

13. Minneapolis-St. Paul: 680,344
Minneapolis: 380,582
St. Paul: 234,698
Surroundings: 65,064

14. Buffalo: 671,893
City: 506,775
Surroundings: 165,118

15. Cincinnati: 630,896
City: 401,247
Surroundings: 229,649

16. Scranton-Wilkes Barre: 590,206
Scranton: 137,783
Wilkes-Barre: 83,826
Surroundings: 368,597


17. Milwaukee: 553,118
City: 460,194
Surroundings: 92,924

18. Washington, D.C. 524,469
City: 437,571
Surroundings: 86,898

19. Kansas City: 479,893
KCMO: 324,410
KCKS: 108,851
Surroundings: 46,632

—————

**20. New Orleans: 397,915
City: 387,219
Surroundings: 10,696

21. Hartford: 381,875
City: 138,036
Surroundings: 243,830


22. Albany: 377,185
Albany: 113,344
Schenectady: 88,723
Troy: 71,996
Surroundings: 103,122

23. Springfield-Holyoke: 359,778
Cities: 189,817
Surroundings: 169,961


24. Seattle: 350,678
City: 315,685
Surroundings: 34,993

25. Indianapolis: 343,868
City: 314,194
Surroundings: 29,074

26. Lowell-Lawrence: 342,706
Lowell: 112,759
Lawrence: 94,270
Surroundings: 135,677

27. Louisville: 330,048
City: 234,801
Surroundings: 95,157

28. Rochester: 328,925
City: 295,750
Surroundings: 33,175

29. Portland: 299,882
City: 258,288
Surroundings: 41,594

—————

30. Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News: 298,080
Cities: 205,770
Surroundings: 92,326


31. Akron: 288,371
City: 208,435
Surroundings: 79,936


32. Youngstown: 283,521
City: 132,358
Surroundings: 151,163


33. Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton: 281,083
Cities: 274,063
Surroundings: 103,122


34. Denver: 280,332
City: 256,491
Surroundings: 23,841

35. Worcester: 276,755
City: 170,754
Surroundings: 97,001

36. Toledo: 275,062
City: 243,164
Surroundings: 31,898

37. Columbus: 267,413
City: 237,031
Surroundings: 30,382

38. Birmingham: 266,772
City: 178,806
Surroundings: 87,966

39. Atlanta: 260,424
City: 200,616
Surroundings: 59,808

—————

40. New Haven: 258,912
City: 162,537
Surroundings: 96,365

41. Omaha: 238,440
City: 191,601
Surroundings: 46,739

**42. Memphis: 214,169
City: 162,351
Surroundings: 51,818

43. Syracuse: 200,868
City: 171,717
Surroundings: 29,151

44. Dallas: 195,565
City: 158,976
Surroundings: 36,589


45. San Antonio: 189,392
City: 161,379
Surroundings: 28,013


46. Richmond: 194,890
City: 171,667
Surroundings: 23,223

47. Dayton: 189,360
City: 152,559
Surroundings: 36,801

48. Bridgeport: 185,580
City: 143,555
Surroundings: 42,025

49. Utica: 174,784
City: 94,156
Surroundings: 80,628


—————

50. Wilmington: 171,713
City: 110,168
Surroundings: 61,535


51. Wheeling: 170,479
City: 56,208
Surroundings: 114,271


52. Houston: 168,351
City: 138,276
Surroundings: 30,075


53. Trenton: 162,331
City: 119,289
Surroundings: 43,042


54. Nashville: 156,238
City: 118,342
Surroundings: 37,896 (another actual loss, not due to annexations or to the way the definitions changed)

55. Grand Rapids: 154,264
City: 137,634
Surroundings: 16,630



—————

Source:
1920 standalone numbers (same geographies as 1910 numbers): https://www2.census.gov/library/publ...84484v1ch1.pdf

1920 comparison numbers (same geographies at 1930 numbers, in the 1930 report as a comparison baseline):https://www2.census.gov/library/publ...3450421ch1.pdf
__________________
HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Nov 25, 2022 at 5:09 AM.
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 7:11 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
So Boston in 1910 was #2 for surrounding area, not surprising given Boston's age and small size. And Pittsburgh is third, it has a lot of industrial satellite boroughs.
I was actually surprised that Pittsburgh had the larger outlying population, rather than Philadelphia.

The 1920 numbers keep the same order. NYC ‘burbs > Boston ‘burbs > Pitts ‘burbs > Phily ‘burbs > Chicago ‘burbs. Providence develops a substantial ‘burb population in this decade, partially as a result of its merger with Fall River.

Detroit, St. Louis, Cincy, Cleveland, Scranton, and others also have larger numbers of collar communities in these decades.
__________________
HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
1900 ‘Metropolitan Districts’

Census Bureau first defined a ‘metropolitan district’ in 1910 as a city over 200,000 and all urban minor civil districts (townships, etc.) within roughly 10 miles of that city. They construct an identical measure for cities between 100,000 and 200,000 without calling this latter list ‘metropolitan.’
Is it the same definition from 1900 to 1940 or they adjust it over time. Figures are comparable with the precedent decade?
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 1:15 PM
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I'll bring Brazil's two largest cities.

Of course suburbs in Brazil are not comparable to the US and Canada. For one thing, city proper is bigger here and wealth are centered on the core of the cities and suburbs are much poorer than the city. And I used current definitions. For earlier years, "suburbs" are actually rural. Even parts of the city. No merges either, the opposite: creation of new municipalities out of the central ones.

Rio de Janeiro

1872
Rio de Janeiro 274,972
Niterói 47,548
Suburban municipalities 120,257
Metro total 442,777

1890
Rio de Janeiro 522.651
Niterói 34,269
Suburban municipalities 115,280
Metro total 672,200

1910
Rio de Janeiro 870,475
Niterói 80,000
Suburban municipalities 180,799
Metro total 1,131,274

1920
Rio de Janeiro 1,147,599
Niterói 86,238
Suburban municipalities 168,562
Metro total 1,402,399

1940
Rio de Janeiro 1,764,141
Niterói: 142,407
Suburban municipalities 320,697
Metro total 2,227,245

For Rio, I brought Niterói as they are city on the way own, on the opposite side of Guanabara Bay. Like San Francisco and Oakland. Keep in mind Rio-Niterói Bridge was only built in 1970's.



São Paulo

1872
São Paulo 31,385
Suburban municipalities 34,599
Metro total 65,944

1890
São Paulo 64,934
Suburban municipalities 67,978
Metro total 132,912

1910
São Paulo 346,410
Suburban municipalities 117,409
Metro total 463,819

1920
São Paulo 579,033
Suburban municipalities 123,215
Metro total 702,248

1940
São Paulo 1,326,261
Suburban municipalities 241,784
Metro total 1,568,045

Even though urbanization arrived later in Brazil, by 1940 both Rio de Janeiro (2.23 million) and São Paulo (1.57 million) were already very big, industrial cities. Other major cities of that time was Recife (450k), Porto Alegre (330k), Salvador (290k), Belo Horizonte (211k), Belém (206k), Santos (183k), Fortaleza (180k), Curitiba (141k), Campinas (130k), Manaus (106k).
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  #13  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 4:03 PM
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Funny to see Scranton bigger than LA, just a few years before WW2.

And Houston not even on the list, smaller than Utica.
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 4:17 PM
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For some reason, Los Angeles was brought alone though. LA County had 936k inh. in 1920. Maybe a 700k de facto "metropolitan district"?

About Scranton-Wilkes, I remember when I was teenager, looking into the US stats, making my tables, and I remember how I find shocking the size of Scranton-Wilkes, Wheeling-Steubenville. Rust Belt arrived there 100 years ago.

Interestingly, after declining between 1930-2000, Scranton-Wilkes resumed their growth since then: 560k (2000), 563k (2010), 567k (2020). I need to check later, but if I remember correctly they peaked at almost 800k (current definition). Maybe New York exurbs arriving there? Pittsburgh-like rehabilitation?

Wheeling-Steubenville, on the other hand, are still in free fall. No signs of any recovery. I guess they'll just disappear.
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Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 4:29 PM
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Yeah, Scranton area is kind of an extreme commuter area now for the NYC region, so there's finally some growth. Lots of commuter buses, and a long-planned rail link. It's extremely cheap compared to closer-in suburbia.

I'd assume places like Scranton were declining 100 years ago bc mining and the railroads started declining. Pretty sure that area was economically dependent on mining and railroads.

But yeah, at some point in U.S. history, Scranton was considered pretty important. So important that the rail corridor between NYC and Scranton, called the Lackawanna Cutoff, is arguably one of the most impressive on earth. When it was built, it was considered an engineering wonder and kind of the first "high speed" rail line on earth. It's pretty much a giant viaduct, with a bunch of impressive bridges and tunnels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lackawanna_Cut-Off
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  #16  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 4:29 PM
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St. Louis City 1940 - 816,048
St. Louis metropolitan population (including metro east) 1940 - 1,432,088

source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_St._Louis
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, Scranton area is kind of an extreme commuter area now for the NYC region, so there's finally some growth. Lots of commuter buses, and a long-planned rail link. It's extremely cheap compared to closer-in suburbia.

I'd assume places like Scranton were declining 100 years ago bc mining and the railroads started declining. Pretty sure that area was economically dependent on mining and railroads.

But yeah, at some point Scranton was pretty important. The rail corridor between NYC and Scranton, called the Lackawanna Cutoff, is arguably one of the most impressive on earth. When it was built, it was considered and engineering wonder.
I opened a thread about metro areas that declined and as usual, we end up focusing on the major ones. However, organizing those lists, I found many examples of those very early urban declines and surprise, surprise: all in Britain. Same story: very early industrialization, coal-focused economy. The British also had their frontier on the British Empire, sucking people out. And as their rural exodus ended in the mid-19th century or so, cities were the ones providing emigrants.

Personally to me, Rust Belt is a very fascinating as I live in a country with not a big old industrial heritage and of course, my father's family business is on farming, lived in a dynamic agribusiness city, now live in a big, dynamic metropolis. And when we travel abroad, we'll obviously focus on the touristic hotspots. I see pics of those coal towns in Pennsylvania, West Virginia and it's the most exotic thing to me.
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  #18  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 4:57 PM
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wwmiv, thanks for compiling all of those early 20th century metro area numbers!

Pittsburgh was a true beast when including the surrounding area in those early decades of the 20th.

In addition to LA's MASSIVE jump from 1900 to 1910, I also stand in awe of Detroit going from 12th to 6th place between 1910 - 1920, leapfrogging a whole bunch of the older guard in a single decade.

I guess that Henry Ford really was on to something....
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 5:04 PM
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[QUOTE=Crawford;9798658]
I'd assume places like Scranton were declining 100 years ago bc mining and the railroads started declining. Pretty sure that area was economically dependent on mining and railroads.

I’ve never been to Scranton, but I remember reading years ago that the advent of the Rust Belt in that city was so sudden and complete that you have 1920s neighborhoods on the very edge of town. That isn’t the case in a lot of other slow growth cities where housing continued to be added on the periphery even as metro population growth slowed down or even stopped altogether. And watching episodes of “The Office,” I’m also puzzled at how much the city resembles the San Fernando Valley.
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2022, 6:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
1920 ‘Metropolitan Districts’

11. Baltimore: 817,646
City: 733,826
Surroundings: 83,820 (metro definition changes likely contributed to this)

Source: https://www2.census.gov/library/publ...3450421ch1.pdf
1918 is when Baltimore does its last collar area annexation, jumping from 32 to 80 square miles.


(Maryland State Archives)
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