It's Happening: The Toronto S-Bahn

[Nite]

It's Happening: The Toronto S-Bahn

• Video Link

[biguc]

6 minute frequency and halved travel times, even with new stations in the mix. Holy smokes. Hiring Europeans to sort your rail system is worth it.

[mrnyc]

[bilbao58]

I suppose having lived there when I was a kid has something to do with it, but, I swear, everything I see about Toronto these days just makes me more and more PISSED OFF at (my hometown) Houston.

[William Van Alen]

Great news for Toronto!

Always frustrates me as a Philadelphian that we don't have this level of service seeing as we already have most of the infrastructure, including electrification. Maybe we just need to push SEPTA to hire Europeans, too...

[Doady]

Toronto could have had a big, frequent and fast rail system a long time now, if it hadn't wasted so much money on bus service. Hundreds of millions each year on buses that could have gone to building a rail system instead. And certainly that is the mistake that other cities like Houston and Philadelphia are making right now as well.

Even just focusing on speed, transit agencies can improve their systems greatly and immediately simply by cutting two-thirds of the bus routes in their network, and putting the buses from those cut routes onto the remaining routes to triple the frequencies and cut riders' waiting times by two-thirds across the whole network. Instead of 15 minute frequencies on 30 bus routes, they could have 5 minute frequencies on 10 bus routes.

Speed is the key, but sadly agencies just focus instead on having bigger bus networks and bigger routes maps. Transit is just too much about marketing instead of function, and Toronto fell behind because of it, and it continues to fall behind. It's not that Toronto is getting ahead, it's just that is falling behind slower, and the other cities are falling behind faster.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Doady

Toronto could have had a big, frequent and fast rail system a long time now, if it hadn't wasted so much money on bus service. Hundreds of millions each year on buses that could have gone to building a rail system instead. And certainly that is the mistake that other cities like Houston and Philadelphia are making right now as well.

Even just focusing on speed, transit agencies can improve their systems greatly and immediately simply by cutting two-thirds of the bus routes in their network, and putting the buses from those cut routes onto the remaining routes to triple the frequencies and cut riders' waiting times by two-thirds across the whole network. Instead of 15 minute frequencies on 30 bus routes, they could have 5 minute frequencies on 10 bus routes.

Speed is the key, but sadly agencies just focus instead on having bigger bus networks and bigger routes maps. Transit is just too much about marketing instead of function, and Toronto fell behind because of it, and it continues to fall behind. It's not that Toronto is getting ahead, it's just that is falling behind slower, and the other cities are falling behind faster.

This is probably the stupidest comment I have ever seen on SSP.

Toronto high frequency bus network servicing all parts of the city, especially to the suburban parts is why Toronto transit is so great.
The TTC bus network is why Toronto has such high transit usage after all since it makes using the system easy for everyone even those in suburbs because they don't have to wait to get on it.
having a bus that passes your suburban house every 10 minutes makes using transit so much easier and more worth it to leave the car at home.
Not investing in the bus network would have given Toronto a transit system as bad as American systems.

THe GO bus network is also crucial in linking up the rail lines together away from union station for great network affect and serving areas that rail doesn't reach.

This video at 5 min explains why Toronto's Bus network is the best part of the transit system compared to US cities
• Video Link

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Nite

This video at 5 min explains why Toronto's Bus network is the best part of the transit system compared to US cities

That snippet (around the 1 minute mark) with Houston's transit map is either totally misinformed or grossly misleading. The map they show is the still small light rail system that first opened 18 years ago. The map I've included to its right is the bus system made up mostly of local service along with long distance park-and-ride routes. You will notice that most of the bus lines are crosstown lines that do not all end up Downtown. https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/SystemMap.aspx



This kind of cr@p is so typical.

[mhays]

A functioning city needs both a tight bus network and speed/frequency on those routes. Toronto appears to have done a great job with that.

As for Houston, I've heard its bus reorg did well. But still, how many routes are really frequent and fast, like with transit lanes?

Obviously wrong that they should cut a bunch of bus service, jesus christ.

[tdawg]

I love riding the bus in NYC. While it's true that several of the Manhattan routes can be slower than walking due to the heavy vehicle traffic (and delivery trucks and double parking) the outer boroughs are really served well. And now with OMNY we have cash/card-less access. I just tap my Apple Watch on the way in. It's pretty great.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by tdawg

I love riding the bus in NYC.

I think you're the only person I know to have ever uttered this sentence.
I try to avoid buses like the plague, but sometimes is still forced to take it if there is no subway route.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by tdawg

I love riding the bus in NYC. While it's true that several of the Manhattan routes can be slower than walking due to the heavy vehicle traffic (and delivery trucks and double parking) the outer boroughs are really served well. And now with OMNY we have cash/card-less access. I just tap my Apple Watch on the way in. It's pretty great.

Off-topic. The quality of bus service depends on which outer borough you're referring to.

Queens is served fairly well, especially eastern Queens, because there aren't many other transit options available.

But my experience with Brooklyn buses has been pretty bad. Low frequency (relatively speaking for NYC), and slow due to the massive amounts of car traffic around. My guess on the reason behind the low frequency? MTA decided that the many subway lines should theoretically be enough to service the area. That's fine if you live by the number line IRT trains (2,3,4,5) because use faster tunnels to get into Lower Manhattan. But the Manhattan Bridge trains are all terrible IMO because their choke point is the bridge itself. It takes a full 10+ minutes to go from Canal St to Barclays Center on the N or Q train, for example. If there was a dedicated under-river tunnel instead, I would wager that 10+ minutes gets cut to 5 minutes.

You might be thinking - "what's the difference between 5 and 10 minutes". Not much if it were just an isolated event. But if it's a route with 4 different trains going through this choke point, and the 4 different trains then split into 3-4 different lines at some point in BK, then it becomes a major problem. As a result, even rush hour service on the N or D line is not great, with headways of over 5 minutes. And it becomes worse during mid-day or night hours.

So in essence, you have not-so-great train service in parts of South Brooklyn, and even more-infrequent bus service because the MTA decided that the non-so-great train service was good enough to provide transit service.

Anyway, back to topic.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by dchan

Off-topic. The quality of bus service depends on which outer borough you're referring to.

Queens is served fairly well, especially eastern Queens, because there aren't many other transit options available.

But my experience with Brooklyn buses has been pretty bad. Low frequency (relatively speaking for NYC), and slow due to the massive amounts of car traffic around. My guess on the reason behind the low frequency? MTA decided that the many subway lines should theoretically be enough to service the area. That's fine if you live by the number line IRT trains (2,3,4,5) because use faster tunnels to get into Lower Manhattan. But the Manhattan Bridge trains are all terrible IMO because their choke point is the bridge itself. It takes a full 10+ minutes to go from Canal St to Barclays Center on the N or Q train, for example. If there was a dedicated under-river tunnel instead, I would wager that 10+ minutes gets cut to 5 minutes.

You might be thinking - "what's the difference between 5 and 10 minutes". Not much if it were just an isolated event. But if it's a route with 4 different trains going through this choke point, and the 4 different trains then split into 3-4 different lines at some point in BK, then it becomes a major problem. As a result, even rush hour service on the N or D line is not great, with headways of over 5 minutes. And it becomes worse during mid-day or night hours.

So in essence, you have not-so-great train service in parts of South Brooklyn, and even more-infrequent bus service because the MTA decided that the non-so-great train service was good enough to provide transit service.

Anyway, back to topic.

Agreed. I hate taking the bus in Brooklyn.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Agreed. I hate taking the bus in Brooklyn.

Yeah, I ended up buying a non-electric scooter back in 2018 because of my commute into BK two jobs ago.

My office was at 5th Av and 22 St in South Slope. The nearest train was the R train at 4th Av & 25 St, and we all know how terrible the R is (infrequent service partly due due to multiple choke points all over - Lower Manhattan, Queens Plaza, Bay Ridge). My main train was the F, which stops at 4th Av and 9 St. Theoretically, I could have taken the B63 bus from 5th Av and 9 St to my office. Except, I can count the number of times the B63 was a 5 minutes wait away or less with my two hands, and I worked at the office for two years. And every time I waited, the stop at 9 St. was full of a bunch of older people who also had been waiting for the bus for a while, and who took forever to board on to the bus.

Instead, I ended up walking to the office most of the time from 4th Av & 9 St, which took about 15 minutes. Either way (walking, bus, R train transfer), it was going to take me 15 minutes to get to my office.

The R train was so bad, that my boss' wife (who did paperwork and administration at the office) almost always drove to the office from Bay Ridge , even though she lived a short walk from the station in Bay Ridge. And finding free parking around the office was not easy.

[tdawg]

Well I'll give that most of my experience is in Queens (I haven't lived in Brooklyn since 2005) but this map is impressive. I also live near a bus stop on the Q69 so I can track when a bus is approaching and catch one within a minute's notice (great for inclement weather). Also dchan, ironically my first apartment in Bklyn was on 23rd St at 4th Ave way back in 2000. That area was a dump then.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by tdawg

Well I'll give that most of my experience is in Queens (I haven't lived in Brooklyn since 2005) but this map is impressive. I also live near a bus stop on the Q69 so I can track when a bus is approaching and catch one within a minute's notice (great for inclement weather). Also dchan, ironically my first apartment in Bklyn was on 23rd St at 4th Ave way back in 2000. That area was a dump then.

Yup. Brooklyn's map is pretty impressive as well , but map coverage doesn't give us a good idea of how frequent the headways are or how fast the buses actually travel in real life.

And the BusTime tracker has been a godsend. No more need to check the bus schedules which are largely inaccurate outside of when the bus leaves the terminal. And no more going out into the street to peek down the road to check if the bus is coming.

I'm sure South Slope is a lot nicer now than it was back then, but it's still not that great closer to 4th Av (and even worse if you're by 3rd Av). My main gripe, besides the iffy transit, is that the area has plenty of restaurants on 5th, but I have no idea how they stay in business. I've almost never seen any of them full, not even during dinner time. It's a mystery to me.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by mhays

As for Houston, I've heard its bus reorg did well. But still, how many routes are really frequent and fast, like with transit lanes?

My comment is about the video's gross misrepresentation of Houston's transit system, not whether the bus service there is speedy or frequent enough.

[JHikka]

6 minute headways? Union to Bramalea in 20 minutes??? What world am I living in now sheesshhhh sign me up

[C.]

This is interesting. The headways of six minutes are ridiculously good along with the high speeds.

Any negatives about this plan?