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  #221  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2011, 6:53 AM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
Nobody takes the Portland streetcar anymore, because its too crowded.
What?
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  #222  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2011, 6:56 AM
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  #223  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 1:03 AM
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From M II A II R II K’s excellent presentation on TOD, 3/22/1, post 203
Quoting from the link:

Read More: http://newurbannetwork.com/article/l...erywhere-14344

Rails to Real Estate suggests why some rail-served locations appealed to developers and residents, while others didn’t. The answers vary from one metro area to another.
In Denver’s southeast suburbs, the 19-mile Southeast Corridor line — the second of what will eventually be a regional network of light-rail lines — was built in the right-of-way of Interstate 25. That turns out to have been a bad decision, at least from a real estate and community-building perspective.


While freeway adjacency provides increased accessibility to the area, it also poses major barriers to TOD. The exhaust and noise of the freeway limit the building forms and land uses of parcels that abut I-25 and the stations. New projects are often built in a way intended to mitigate these effects, forming visual and physical barriers between the freeway and nearby areas; unfortunately, because the stations are also next to the freeway, these also form barriers to transit.

Pedestrian bridges have been constructed to enhance access to the stations from both sides of the freeway, but the presence of the highway limits the amount of land that is truly transit-accessible. Finally, the excellent automobile access provided by the highway encourages driving and necessitates the provision of a large amount of parking, which limits both development density and the potential for a vibrant pedestrian-scaled environment.


IMO, part of the problem in getting a light rail (heavy rail or street car) system to work in TOD is the result of how getting finance affects the system's build out design.

The I-25 FasTracks Project in Denver was a curious hybrid in the sense that Federal highway funds, state highway funds, and, RTD area sales tax funds were lumped together in a combined project. From the I-25 perspective, the project involved widening a 20 kilometer section of 6 and 8 laned interstate into 8 and 10 lanes and improving entry and exit ramps. From the light rail perspective, RTD gained a ROW at the expense of ‘best possible ROW', at a reduced cost. Consequently, grade and curvature targets were compromised by freeway design.

This produced a system in which most access to stations is gained from the ‘other’ side of I-25, whether via tunnel or overhead walkway. The one tunnel goes under 8 lanes of traffic and can be intimidating when used late at night, or anytime when one is alone. The overhead passes vary from a moderate hindrance in their length to 300 or more meters of walking across 10 lanes of I-25, frontage roads etc.

This type of light rail development, where the light rail either goes down the median or along side a freeway results in stations which must be extremely noisy due to 60-70 mph car and truck traffic very close by. People who use such stations have no desire to ‘get there early’ or to ‘wait for someone.’ Instead, users minimize station time to avoid using ear plugs.

IMO TOD development around stations works best when station platforms are fairly quiet and close to parking, retail, housing etc. I think the ultimate desigm criteria would be housing where people could lounge on their balconies without ear plugs and be between 150 and 350 walking meters of a light rail station.

IMO this is central to TOD development, and is why great TODs occur off interstates and in quieter neighborhoods.

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Apr 11, 2011 at 1:05 AM. Reason: grammar stank
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  #224  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 4:42 PM
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Well.... the state of Ohio just pulled $52 million in funds for Cincinnati's streetcar.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...0108/304120038
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  #225  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 5:25 PM
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I do not envy America right now.
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  #226  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 5:46 PM
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Maybe Cincy will start with beefing up the current bus service in the corridor.
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  #227  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 7:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natiboy
Well.... the state of Ohio just pulled $52 million in funds for Cincinnati's streetcar.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...0108/304120038

That is just sad. After reading the comments to that article my thoughts were are all Americans really so short-sighted? In the future your city's ability to compete ( attract business and people ) will be tied to your transportation infrastucture. Cities with multi-modal transportation structures will thrive - auto dependent ones will wither.
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  #228  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIOTTA View Post
That is just sad. After reading the comments to that article my thoughts were are all Americans really so short-sighted? In the future your city's ability to compete ( attract business and people ) will be tied to your transportation infrastructure. Cities with multi-modal transportation structures will thrive - auto dependent ones will wither.
I think this proves cities shouldn't rely upon too many partners gathering funds. Why did the Cincy's streetcar project ever rely upon State discretionary funds which can be taken away by the next legislature or governor? Far better to rely upon independent formula transportation funds and local discretionary funds.
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  #229  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 8:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIOTTA View Post
That is just sad. After reading the comments to that article my thoughts were are all Americans really so short-sighted? In the future your city's ability to compete ( attract business and people ) will be tied to your transportation infrastucture. Cities with multi-modal transportation structures will thrive - auto dependent ones will wither.
Well , Northeastern Americans aren't short sighted , we snap up every crumb of Fed Funding and rarely cancel a project unless it morphs into a garbage project. The Midwest has issues , so does the South. But there are alot of cities and regions trying to get on the TOD train and change there areas...
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  #230  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2011, 11:31 PM
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But it wasn't too big before the LRT started construction. And it's huge now that the LRT has been established for decades. If it wasn't built, I would imagine Calgary's urban form (including offices) would be a lot more decentralized.
They do go hand and hand. Calgary's CBD is very compact. It has near to or soon to have more than 40 million sq ft. All of this in a very small area. Skyscraper canyon, after skyscraper canyon. The lrt passes through the center of it. Nearly all skyscrapers (all of the really important towers), are conected to each other via the wonderfull plus 15 networks. You can jump off a train anywhere along the transit coridor. It runs east and west, through the length of the CBD. You can then enter nearly any skyscraper nearest you, then walk to almost anywhere in the CBD in the safety and climit controled plus 15. It is a massive system that will take you indoors thoughout the downtown for many kms. The combination of the three factors: skyscraper office towers, LRT and by no means least, the plus 15, make for a three way sucsess story. they all work together to make the Calgary CBD one of the truly modern experiences that separates Calgary from any city anywhere near its size in north America, if not the world. This is the true factoring of why the Calgary lrt is such a sucsess story. People work downtown and then the go home using the lrt, Just as it was planed. Anyone who has used all three in the same trip will instantly recognize the importance of all three factors. I have, for example, taken the Crain from the North east, several kms away. It took just minutes. I then exited the train. The temperature was -34 with a wind-chill of -45. You freeze in 5 seconds or something like that. ha-ha. I then entered the Scotia center. I followed the plus 15 to the bankers hall where my lawyer's firm had their office way the hell up there on the 40 something floor at the time. Awesome? Yes. I used all three of these factors to make a warm, happy and fun experience. Sorry for my crappy grammar.
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  #231  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2011, 8:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
Nobody takes the Portland streetcar anymore, because its too crowded.
I was just about to say wtf, what kind of moron would say this...but I know you and I know you are joking, it definitely made me laugh.
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  #232  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2011, 8:35 AM
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I do not envy America right now.
Our country's mouth breathers always disappoint me...I am getting to the point that I am more shocked when they actually do something right these days.
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  #233  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2011, 4:31 PM
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Can transit-oriented development work along Wasatch Front?



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...tch-Front.html

Quote:
A large wooden sign advertising one-, two- and three-bedroom lofts, condos and townhomes used to face the parking lot at Sandy Civic Center station.It greeted commuters each morning as they parked their cars and boarded TRAX trains headed for Salt Lake City. When the workday was done and commuters returned to their cars, that same sign informed them, "You could be home now." Today, that sign is gone, along with possibility that Belmont Station will ever be home to anyone other than rodents, spiders and insects. The partially completed project was abandoned about three years ago when the developer's financing fell through.

Eight miles to the north, just a short walk from the Murray North TRAX station, there's little activity at Hamlet Homes' residential and commercial development, Birkhill at Fireclay. The project's street-level commercial leasing space sits vacant, aside from the developer's sales office and The Planning Center, a consulting firm for community and environmental planning and design. Critics of transit-oriented development often point to the two projects as evidence that the new urbanism trend of building communities where people can work, live and play, with easy access to transit, just doesn't work along the Wasatch Front. But professional planners and transit experts say that's neither true nor fair.

"It's kind of like judging a kid's college potential based on his performance in kindergarten," said Reid Ewing, a professor of city and metropolitan planning at the University of Utah. "It's got a lot of developing and growing to do before you can tell whether it's going to be successful." Though most of them have been slowed — and in some cases stalled — by the Great Recession, several transit-oriented developments are in the works along the Utah Transit Authority's light- and commuter-rail lines.

.....








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  #234  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2011, 4:55 PM
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Lightbulb

People expect immediate results today. It takes years, if not decades, to fully develope a large tract of land.

I moved into a brand new neighborhood in a brand new suburb decades ago, and that neighborhood is still growing and filling in. Initially 7-11 convenience stores and gas stations were built. Then schools were built. Then a strip shopping center with a grocery store magnet and associated stores were built. Then fast food and finer restaurants moved in. We're still growing.

Development just doesn't happen in one or two years, even when it's spread out over several large tracts and several developers.
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  #235  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2011, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIOTTA View Post
That is just sad. After reading the comments to that article my thoughts were are all Americans really so short-sighted? In the future your city's ability to compete ( attract business and people ) will be tied to your transportation infrastucture. Cities with multi-modal transportation structures will thrive - auto dependent ones will wither.
I read the same comments about the Cincy streetcar and yes they are short sighted! I feel bad for Cincy though.
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  #236  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2011, 11:13 PM
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The Boston Globe did a story on their commenters once, and basically they trend towards older, half-employed men. I can imagine the shift back towards cities being strange for people who lived through suburbanization, and it would definitely be hard to shake off a century of common knowledge about cities and transportation off. The Urbanophile had a great article about this.

But I think Cincinnati’s also more of a stick-in-the-mud than your average city. There’s a huge contingent of former-southern-Ohioans here in Chicago, and I’ve yet to meet anyone with any sense of nostalgia for their home region.

Last edited by Beta_Magellan; Apr 14, 2011 at 12:07 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #237  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 5:41 AM
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In many ways it's not surprising that most US LRT systems get relatively lousy ridership as many are built near freeways.
That said, the thing that I think hurts the ridership levels even more is the lousy service.
US cities have a very bad habit of building great and expensive LRT systems but then not buying enough rolling stock and not providing the service levels. In other words many are rail based transit but not particularily fast. They maybe quick when you are actually on the train but if you have to wait forever for the train it negates any potential time saved.
Take Phoneix as an example...........it built an impressive LRT that that has only been open for 2 years and has a good ridership level of 45,000 ppd. It was built very well by not using existing rail corridors that cannot be transferred into TOD and the line and road have become very transit and pedestrian friendly. It cost half as much as Seattle's LINK but get's twice the ridership. Then look at the service............every 7 minutes in rush hour and every 15 minutes in off peak and it only runs until midnight. That is horrid service. That's not even the service level one would expect from poorly serviced bus route.
If any system is be considered rapid, convenient, and some what auto competitive it must have frequency of at least every 5 minutes during off peak and every 2 to 3 minutes in rush hour.
In Vancouver the new Canada Line which opened in late 2009 is 20km and already carrying 100,000 ppd with 40 meter trains. It runs all day moriing to late night every 3,5 minutes and people already are bitching about the lousy service.
If they don't have anymore cars the very least they should do is extend the hours and run the trains every 7 minutes all day.
All the money in the world for a system doesn't mean squat if the service levels are poor.
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  #238  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 7:04 AM
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Thats because people in Vancouver have become spoiled with trains arriving every 90 seconds on the Expo Line during peak hours. But I agree, frequent service is a major component in mass transit, but what you are missing out is that the Canada Line and indeed all of Vancouver's skytrain system has 2 huge advantages over all these new LRTs in the US, 100% GRADE SEPARATION and automated rolling stock.

Street grade LRTs are great for feeder / secondary routes, but they are terrible for urban trunk routes. True trunk routes need 100% grade separation or their own surface ROW akin to a heavy rail (think JR or Hankyu in Japan).
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  #239  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 7:48 AM
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Oh come on, service every 7 minutes is surely good enough for 45,000 people/day to choose to ride it. Thats pretty impressive, for a place not exactly known for having decent transit service.
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  #240  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 4:12 PM
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In Seattle's defense, our light rail line is 5% of our transit ridership, while Phoenix's is probably at least 20%.

Rail ridership comes from density, connections to other lines, and parking. Seattle's line has little density other than Downtown, with only a couple TODs so far and those not shown in the numbers yet. Much of it is in uninhabited industrial areas. It has one park-n-ride. There are bus connections but no rail connections.

Further, the length of our trains is limited by a construction project to extend the line, and the frequency of service is limited to 7.5 minutes at peak times because the trains share the transit tunnel with buses, with too much space required between them. A wheelchair on a bus can delay the train by a minute or two. When that happens, the first train can be too full to squeeze on. The buses will leave when the line extension opens in 2016, at which time the train can be four cars instead of two, and more frequent. To save money they're running on car evenings and weekends, which is frequently standing room only (capacity 200 or so).

The park-n-ride method, Phoenix-style, will draw passengers but isn't the best way to develop a city. Seattle's method of relying on transit connections and gradually increasing density around stations is better long term.
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