Lamenting the decline of the car

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by theman23

Used cars have always been better for low market buyers. That does nothing to explain the shift towards crossovers.

The other part many forget is many car buyers are simply willing to spend more than $20k these days on a car. "starter cars" have disappeared not because auto makers stopped building them as you suggested, but because buyers stopped buying them.

We can speculate as to why that is, and yes, the Canadian market is different than the American market and Canadians have always purchased smaller vehicles in larger numbers, but the trends are generally similar to the US market.

Ultimately Canadians are wealthier than ever. I'm not surprised people don't buy crappy cars any longer.

Good cars, even relatively small ones, still sell. The Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla, and Honda Civic all still post respectable, albeit declining, sales.

The Rio is a terrible product. It will not be missed.

[1overcosc]

What's the difference between a Rio versus a Corolla? I've been a passenger in both and can't really see the difference

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

What's the difference between a Rio versus a Corolla? I've been a passenger in both and can't really see the difference

Corollas are much larger, being about 2 feet longer, and have much higher build qualities. In terms of base-model features, they probably aren't far off.. but the Corolla has a larger engine, better handling, quieter ride, more spacious interior, etc. Corollas can also be optioned up much higher than a Rio can.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by theman23

Used cars have always been better for low market buyers. That does nothing to explain the shift towards crossovers.

ORLY?

Old is gold: Demand for used cars in Canada pushes average prices to crazy highs
https://dailyhive.com/canada/used-ca...-prices-canada

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The other part many forget is many car buyers are simply willing to spend more than $20k these days on a car. "starter cars" have disappeared not because auto makers stopped building them as you suggested, but because buyers stopped buying them.

We can speculate as to why that is, and yes, the Canadian market is different than the American market and Canadians have always purchased smaller vehicles in larger numbers, but the trends are generally similar to the US market.

Ultimately Canadians are wealthier than ever. I'm not surprised people don't buy crappy cars any longer.

Good cars, even relatively small ones, still sell. The Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla, and Honda Civic all still post respectable, albeit declining, sales.

The Rio is a terrible product. It will not be missed.

Curious to see how this holds up now that Canada is entering a deleveraging cycle and and so much of that "you're richer than you think" stuff was the wealth effect of the housing bubble. 50% of Canadians living paycheque to paycheque and Canada seeing GDP contraction doesn't sound like a market where F150s will keeping flying out of dealerships.

[Innsertnamehere]

polls saying 50% of people are living paycheque to paycheque aren't new.

Interest rates are definitely going to be hurting demand for high end vehicles though. And we already see results from that with manufacturers dropping MSRPs on high priced models.

I expect a shift back to lower cost models to some extent for sure. How much? who knows.

[thurmas]

I remember in the early 90s recession some of my classmates parents bought ladas and yugos from Eastern Europe so maybe they are due for a comeback

[theman23]

Originally Posted by whatnext

ORLY?

Old is gold: Demand for used cars in Canada pushes average prices to crazy highs
https://dailyhive.com/canada/used-ca...-prices-canada

That article reports a 23% YoY price increase of new cars vs 4.1% YoY price of used cars. Not sure if you’re trying to prove my point for me, but you’re using ORLY wrong if you are.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The other part many forget is many car buyers are simply willing to spend more than $20k these days on a car. "starter cars" have disappeared not because auto makers stopped building them as you suggested, but because buyers stopped buying them.

We can speculate as to why that is, and yes, the Canadian market is different than the American market and Canadians have always purchased smaller vehicles in larger numbers, but the trends are generally similar to the US market.

Ultimately Canadians are wealthier than ever. I'm not surprised people don't buy crappy cars any longer.

Good cars, even relatively small ones, still sell. The Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla, and Honda Civic all still post respectable, albeit declining, sales.

The Rio is a terrible product. It will not be missed.

I don’t think we can definitely say one way or the other without access to the market research, but your deduction is a gross simplification.

Canadians are only wealthier on paper. Taking away primary home real estate values, we’re the only OECD country with negative household balance sheets for every year over the last 18 years. We’re getting poorer, not richer. People are buying bigger cars because of numerous reasons including (until recently) low interest rates, lack of cheaper options, and the wealth effect from inflated real estate.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by theman23

I don’t think we can definitely say one way or the other without access to the market research, but your deduction is a gross simplification.

Canadians are only wealthier on paper. Taking away primary home real estate values, we’re the only OECD country with negative household balance sheets for every year over the last 18 years. We’re getting poorer, not richer. People are buying bigger cars because of numerous reasons including (until recently) low interest rates, lack of cheaper options, and the wealth effect from inflated real estate.

Thank you. Now the tide is going out, we're going to find out which neighbours have been swimming naked.

The car companies are stupidly ditching the cheapest options just as a lot of consumers are going to be looking for them.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by theman23

I don’t think we can definitely say one way or the other without access to the market research, but your deduction is a gross simplification.

Canadians are only wealthier on paper. Taking away primary home real estate values, we’re the only OECD country with negative household balance sheets for every year over the last 18 years. We’re getting poorer, not richer. People are buying bigger cars because of numerous reasons including (until recently) low interest rates, lack of cheaper options, and the wealth effect from inflated real estate.

Very true.
The wealthy class in Canada is undoubtedly getting richer, but the middle and working classes, the vast majority of Canada, are getting poorer. Those that own a home are wealthier on paper (and anecdotally I have an inkling that some Canadians are like my cousin using their home's increased value basically like a piggy bank to draw from ).

Canadians are also overextended with credit card and mortgage debt compared to Americans. Not to mention with more expensive vehicles (higher priced SUVs and trucks) comes bigger car loans and more expensive leasing rates.

[Wigs]

Anecdotally that same cousin could be seen as the current typical Canadian auto consumer.

For years he bought modest sedans. His wife has a used Honda Accord (in pristine shape), but my cousin is now on his 2nd full size 4x4 truck, close to fully loaded.

Not only do Canadians love trucks and SUVs but we tend to buy the ones with most or all options included.

[Truenorth00]

Indeed. The Big 3 are definitely going to lose market share in Canada when the recession hits and there's lots of broke Canadians around who will need smaller and cheaper cars and giant trucks are sitting in the sales lot. Basing market analysis on a 20 yr debt binge is going to hurt them.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Thank you. Now the tide is going out, we're going to find out which neighbours have been swimming naked.

The car companies are stupidly ditching the cheapest options just as a lot of consumers are going to be looking for them.

It’s also foolish from the brand loyalty point of view. Young buyers used to start out with a make’s cheapest model and cultivate them to trade up. Often it was easier for somebody to finance a cheap new car than a used one.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Anecdotally that same cousin could be seen as the current typical Canadian auto consumer.

For years he bought modest sedans. His wife has a used Honda Accord (in pristine shape), but my cousin is now on his 2nd full size 4x4 truck, close to fully loaded.

Not only do Canadians love trucks and SUVs but we tend to buy the ones with most or all options included.

The marketing people did an excellent job convincing people that private vehicles are more than just a mere appliance to get you from point A to point B, and that they're an instrument for self-expression and self-realization.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by esquire

The marketing people did an excellent job convincing people that private vehicles are more than just a mere appliance to get you from point A to point B, and that they're an instrument for self-expression and self-realization.

Yes, the Canyonero style marketing was far too successful
• Video Link

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. The Big 3 are definitely going to lose market share in Canada when the recession hits and there's lots of broke Canadians around who will need smaller and cheaper cars and giant trucks are sitting in the sales lot. Basing market analysis on a 20 yr debt binge is going to hurt them.

Seeing tons of gas guzzling 4x4 suburban pickups sitting in lots will give me a sense of schadenfreude as I hope it then allows the electric vehicle market to expand more quickly.

One can dream, right

Until then I'll drive my older 4 cylinder Camry

[MonkeyRonin]

This is why I won't buy anything made after 2015 or so - and by extension, an EV - until these sorts of issues are resolved:

If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare

Bad news: your car is a spy. Every major car brand's new internet-connected models flunked privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla.
By

Thomas Germain
UpdatedThursday 9:54AM

Bad news: your car is a spy. If your vehicle was made in the last few years, you’re probably driving around in a data-harvesting machine that may collect personal information as sensitive as your race, weight, and sexual activity. Volkswagen’s cars reportedly know if you’re fastening your seatbelt and how hard you hit the brakes.

That’s according to new findings from Mozilla’s *Privacy Not Included project. The nonprofit found that every major car brand fails to adhere to the most basic privacy and security standards in new internet-connected models, and all 25 of the brands Mozilla examined flunked the organization’s test. Mozilla found brands including BMW, Ford, Toyota, Tesla, and Subaru collect data about drivers including race, facial expressions, weight, health information, and where you drive. Some of the cars tested collected data you wouldn’t expect your car to know about, including details about sexual activity, race, and immigration status, according to Mozilla.

“Many people think of their car as a private space — somewhere to call your doctor, have a personal conversation with your kid on the way to school, cry your eyes out over a break-up, or drive places you might not want the world to know about,” said Jen Caltrider, program direction of the *Privacy Not Included project, in a press release. “But that perception no longer matches reality. All new cars today are privacy nightmares on wheels that collect huge amounts of personal information.”

Modern cars use a variety of data harvesting tools including microphones, cameras, and the phones drivers connect to their cars. Manufacturers also collect data through their apps and websites, and can then sell or share that data with third parties.

The worst offender was Nissan, Mozilla said. The carmaker’s privacy policy suggests the manufacturer collects information including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data, though there’s no details about how exactly that data is gathered. Nissan reserves the right to share and sell “preferences, characteristics, psychological trends, predispositions, behavior, attitudes, intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes” to data brokers, law enforcement, and other third parties.

https://gizmodo.com/mozilla-new-cars...ort-1850805416


Oh, and then there's this stuff:

The death of ownership

Companies are taking away your ability to actually own the stuff you buy

Nathan Proctor
May 18, 2023, 3:02 AM PDT

...

Businesses use a slew of tactics to keep customers on the hook after they've purchased a product. One tactic is to use technical sensors to prevent unauthorized changes to the product. Take the experience of America's farmers: Newer equipment like tractors and combines often require special tools that manufacturers offer exclusively to authorized dealers. Along with highly technical computer systems, this makes it nearly impossible for farmers to fix their own vehicles. My organization, Public Interest Research Group or PIRG, calculated that repair restrictions cost farmers an additional $4.2 billion each year, with $1.2 billion going to the local authorized dealers and another $3 billion lost to equipment downtime. Similarly, Tesla's software can detect and restrict features from car owners that equipment not from the company, such as after-market tow hitches (while Tesla's own hitches are out of stock).

In other cases, companies have tried to block consumers from accessing certain features at all unless they pay up first. Car companies have taken the lead on pushing this trend. Mercedes-Benz and BMW made headlines for charging users monthly fees for better acceleration and the use of heated seats, respectively. You already bought the seat heater (and the luxury car that contains it), but now you need to pay for the right to turn it on? Printer companies have used similar tactics to get people to sign up for subscriptions that remotely monitor ink levels but can also shut off your machine if you fail to pay. Imagine if you had to pay the contractor who built your house a monthly fee so the light switches would work!

Finally, manufacturers use internet connectivity to monitor and control what you do. If they detect you did something they don't like (maybe hot-wiring your heated seat), they can take away or disable other features. Tesla has been accused of revoking charge capacity, fast-charging compatibility, and other features remotely. Consumers are afraid to do anything that displeases manufacturers, knowing that they can be punished.

[homebucket]

There's also the possibility that hackers could gain access to your data or even remotely control various functions of your car including braking and acceleration.

[SFUVancouver]

I have mixed feelings about our 2016 Forester predating the transition of a lot of safety features from options to standard. It means there's less to break or maintain on our car, but it also means forfeiture of objectively beneficial safety features. But I do love that we have no internet connectivity, no subscriptions, and, ultimately, there's very little extraneous stuff on the car to break/recalibrate/become obsolete.

Specifically, our Forester is the mid-end Touring-spec that included the winter driving package (heated seats, mirrors, and windshield rest), but excluded the 'technology' package that would have added the 'Eyesight' camera-based advanced driver assistance system, blind spot monitors, ultrasonic bumper sensors, and Starlink (not the SpaceX one) satellite navigation and enhanced entertainment system.

In hindsight, while I don't care about the sat nav or ultrasonic bumper sensors, the Eyesight ADAS and blindspot monitors would have made our car objectively safer. Were I to do it over again, I would have pulled the trigger on the option to get those. But at the time it was also an expensive optional package that I didn't really want to purchase and finance.

Moreover, Eyesight was simultaneously a then-new technology without any track record of dependability or independent benchmarking for efficacy, plus being mounted to the windshield, it would have added significant cost to a windshield replacement should that have ever been required. I do think that it is interesting that Subaru went the route of an optical ADAS system that has proven to be quite effective and easily comparable to radar-ultrasonic systems. Tesla has also gone all-in on an optical ADAS system (albeit an exponentially more capable and ambitious system than Eyesight) and has been pilloried for doing so.

Anyway, we've paid off our car, which continues to run great and at 160,000ish km is barely broken in, so we won't be looking for something new for a long time. When we do, it goes without saying that I'll make sure it comes with an excellent ADAS package. I still don't care about ultrasonic bumper sensors, though. I've parked countless times and haven't hit anything yet. How do people not know where their car begins and ends? That's, like, lesson 1 in learning how to drive.