Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That's what I was referencing.

Methinks you might have some pretty big blind spots when it comes to your own society.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These attempts to muzzle frank discussions are a perfect example of what is being pushed with respect to anti-blasphemy: legitimate criticism of certain aspects of Islam is equated with islamophobia and, even worse, wanting Muslims dead.

It's the same rhetoric at the end of the day. You've yet to prove how a teacher wearing a hijab around students is "coercive", or how Islam is any more prone to extremist causes than any other religion, but continue to want to keep beating on that drum in an attempt to fearmonger. It's your mythology at the end of the day.

Nothing's been muzzled. I've offered you and others take this discussion to the Current Events board where it belongs.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Methinks you might have some pretty big blind spots when it comes to your own society.

Your superiority complex is showing. Are you still lecturing people on the Manitoba subforum about how much better you are than them? What happened to sticking to places you live and not having any input otherwise?

[kwoldtimer]

Now, now! Acajack lives in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Your superiority complex is showing. Are you still lecturing people on the Manitoba subforum about how much better you are than them? What happened to sticking to places you live and not having any input otherwise?

While it would indeed be weird to have a discussion with 95% of posters being Québécois discussing Winnipeg crime in French, I still was not aware that we now needed proof of residency to post in certain sections of SSP.

But hey, I am an old enough guy (though still far from an "oldtimer") and the world is changing so fast, it's hard for me to keep track!

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

...

But hey, I am an old enough guy (though still far from an "oldtimer") and the world is changing so fast, it's hard for me to keep track!

One of your Popes just died, get a grip! A day of mourning is in order.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Architype

One of your Popes just died, get a grip! A day of mourning is in order.

Nobody really cares, there are 2 hockey games tonight,

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's the same rhetoric at the end of the day. You've yet to prove how a teacher wearing a hijab around students is "coercive", or how Islam is any more prone to extremist causes than any other religion, but continue to want to keep beating on that drum in an attempt to fearmonger. It's your mythology at the end of the day.

Is there any really any doubt about this? This seems like taking political correctness too far. Yes, not all muslims are extremist, but to try to paint islam as peaceful as buddhism or jainism is laughable. Please stop. Islam hands down is the most extreme religion out there. The majority of Islamic countries being gay is illegal and in some cases punishable by death. Islamic countries are the few places on earth where it is still like this. This is not fear mongering it is simply a fact....The fact some Muslim women have to completely cover their faces in public is already extremism. SMH

[1overcosc]

"Christianity is the left wing religion that right-wingers inexplicably love, and Islam is the right wing religion that left-wingers inexplicably love". I forget who, but a British comic said that once and I think its a great line.

[1overcosc]

Islam and Judaism are very similar in that their traditional forms are highly misogynistic, violent, oppressive, etc. Many customs and practices are very similar between the two. The main difference is that Islam is a "missionary faith", that seeks to convert other folks and expand itself, while Judaism is a "tribal faith" that sees itself as a religion for its own people only (converts are welcome on their own initiative, but there's no proselytizing). Both religions have more modern liberal movements within them, but Judaism's are more mature and widespread.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Nobody really cares, there are 2 hockey games tonight,

Plus Le Bye Bye, Infoman, En Direct de l'Univers, etc.

[Binour]

Originally Posted by Luisito

The majority of Islamic countries being gay is illegal and in some cases punishable by death. Islamic countries are the few places on earth where it is still like this. This is not fear mongering it is simply a fact....

A look at the map below support what you say Luisito.

Then imagine a kid or a young teen which begins to understand that he/she has that difference, while the person in front of the class shows adhesion to Islam.

Map of Countries that Criminalise LGBT People

https://www.humandignitytrust.org/lg...iminalisation/

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Islam and Judaism are very similar in that their traditional forms are highly misogynistic, violent, oppressive, etc. Many customs and practices are very similar between the two. The main difference is that Islam is a "missionary faith", that seeks to convert other folks and expand itself, while Judaism is a "tribal faith" that sees itself as a religion for its own people only (converts are welcome on their own initiative, but there's no proselytizing). Both religions have more modern liberal movements within them, but Judaism's are more mature and widespread.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are kind of the same thing, actually. Of course they have differences nowadays, and within themselves too.

In fact, I’d take any day a moderate of any of those three religions over a hardcore extremist zealot of any of those three religions.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While it would indeed be weird to have a discussion with 95% of posters being Québécois discussing Winnipeg crime in French, I still was not aware that we now needed proof of residency to post in certain sections of SSP.

Exactly.

Imagine a fully Francophone discussion forum where the topic being discussed is how bad crime is in Winnipeg, with nearly all participants being Québécois who happen to think that Manitobans are running their own province incorrectly.

It’s almost a fantasy scenario, because us Québécois have for some reason a natural understanding of what’s our own business and what’s clearly none of our business. Even our “woke” (Valérie Plante example above) naturally act like this.

Maybe it’s a Gallic trait, I don’t think the French are too bothered by the fact they’re in an union with a neighbor that has totally unreasonable freeway speeds. They mind their own businesses and let their neighbors mind theirs.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also, viewing one's approach as "better" is also a very anglo thing. And even very Anglo-Canadian. Most cultures don't view matters and issues as obsessively in those terms. They just do their own thing and live with it.

When I say "better", I mean in terms of actual performance metrics when it comes to racial/cultural marginalization and discrimination in Canada relative to France. It's an objective truth that Canada performs better than France in that aspect.

It's also a well-known and well-documented phenomenon that marginalization of Muslim minorities in France has contributed to the disproportionate amount of terrorist attacks in the country, and it doesn't take a genius to understand why. Socially excluding Muslim minorities and putting up barriers to their social and economic integration pushes them into the arms of the radical where sentiments of contempt for the host state are more easily manipulated.

If we go back for a moment to the France24 video you posted a few pages back, you'll note that a man tells the women behind the hidden camera "you're in the 93 here, not Paris", referring to the infamous Seine-Saint-Denis area where police department 93 is located. This in itself should speak volumes to just how racially segregated and unintegrated many minorities of France are. That, of course, is by design and further exacerbated by policies which aim to exclude minorities from society.

This phenomenon is much less prevalent in Canada precisely because we don't have policies that intentionally marginalize religious minorities. So, I really don't see why Quebec would want to follow in France's footsteps instead of maintaining the status quo, as it will only make things worse.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Haven't you ever had someone from another culture tell you "that's just the way we do things", as if no other explanation was required?

Of course, but I still wouldn't accept that as a valid excuse, especially not in an immigrant-dependent country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

When I say "better", I mean in terms of actual performance metrics when it comes to racial/cultural marginalization and discrimination in Canada relative to France. It's an objective truth that Canada performs better than France in that aspect.

It's also a well-known and well-documented phenomenon that marginalization of Muslim minorities in France has contributed to the disproportionate amount of terrorist attacks in the country, and it doesn't take a genius to understand why. Socially excluding Muslim minorities and putting up barriers to their social and economic integration pushes them into the arms of the radical where sentiments of contempt for the host state are more easily manipulated.

If we go back for a moment to the France24 video you posted a few pages back, you'll note that a man tells the women behind the hidden camera "you're in the 93 here, not Paris", referring to the infamous Seine-Saint-Denis area where police department 93 is located. This in itself should speak volumes to just how racially segregated and unintegrated many minorities of France are. That, of course, is by design and further exacerbated by policies which aim to exclude minorities from society.

This phenomenon is much less prevalent in Canada precisely because we don't have policies that intentionally marginalize religious minorities. So, I really don't see why Quebec would want to follow in France's footsteps instead of maintaining the status quo, as it will only make things worse.



Of course, but I still wouldn't accept that as a valid excuse, especially not in an immigrant-dependent country.

I often say that Anglo-Canada is the most successful diverse society in the world. I still think that, but that doesn't mean that its approach can apply anywhere in the world. It all depends on what your situation and goals are.

This is especially true of Quebec, and one of Canada's major failings has been not being able to make "multicultural Canada" work for Quebec and the country's francophone population.

Even if almost no one is talking about it, this will be one of the bigger challenges this country will face going forward as we bring in 500,000 newcomers a year and bear down on the 100 million population figure.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is especially true of Quebec, and one of Canada's major failings has been not being able to make "multicultural Canada" work for Quebec and the country's francophone population.

Are you able to elaborate on what these failings are?

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even if almost no one is talking about it, this will be one of the bigger challenges this country will face going forward as we bring in 500,000 newcomers a year and bear down on the 100 million population figure.

Many of those 500K/year newcomers are already in Canada as either students or on PR. The 500K is not net new people arriving per annum in addition to those peoples already.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Are you able to elaborate on what these failings are?



Many of those 500K/year newcomers are already in Canada as either students or on PR. The 500K is not net new people arriving per annum in addition to those peoples already.

They are in Canada at present - going forward the number of new arrivals will increase.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Quebec would be able to do as it pleases if it were its own country, the same as any other country. They're not, and so here we are.

One of the biggest selling point of the No side in 1995 was "What would Québec be able to do as an independant country that it cannot do within Canada?". So we do what we want to within Canada and we use our constitutional tools to do so.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You'd still think that the self-proclaimed world champions for respecting cultural differences would do better than this.

French culture has always been and will always remain suspicious in North America I think. You don't erase 300 years of history in just a few years. It's obvious in the US how their newspapers can quickly turn Francophobic (think how the New York Times discusses France and the Islamic veil for instance). It all goes back to the Boston Puritans who hated with a passion the Catholic French, who were the devil incarnate as far as they were concerned. That sentiment was carried to Canada by the Loyalists after their defeat in the 13 colonies.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Nobody really cares, there are 2 hockey games tonight,

It's top news on Le Devoir's website. It's also top news in France. So some people seem to care.

On the other hand, it's barely mentioned on the webpage of the Telegraph in the UK.