Air conditioning raising controversy

[mousquet]

I'm not aware of the tech to design air conditioners.
All I know is the market is booming here in France, for personal use, because heatwaves occur more often than ever during the summer.

So far, air conditioning was mostly in use in office buildings, data centers and places of that kind over here.
It's been unavoidable for long to maintain the productivity of employees, to make sure expensive servers/computers don't literally burn out and so on when it's really hot.

But now, old people in particular must rely on it in their homes too, to simply not die from heat.
I think that's an acceptable and even necessary solution for elderly people, being skeptical otherwise.
Here is some reason why.

Originally Posted by independent.co.uk

Wednesday 4 July 2018 00:23

Air conditioning to tackle summer heatwaves causes surge in deadly pollution

'If our nation continues to rely on coal-fired power plants for some of our electricity, each time we turn on the air conditioning we'll be fouling the air, causing more sickness and even deaths'


Air conditioners are essential in some of the hottest parts of the world, especially as global temperatures increase, but they are responsible for harmful emissions ( Getty )

While air conditioning can quite literally be a lifesaver in a rapidly warming climate, scientists have warned that it comes with major health problems of its own.

If climate change continues at its current pace, heatwaves are expected to increase in intensity around the world, from France to India.

Experts estimate that in the past decade alone, the number of lives lost due to heatwaves has increased by more than 2,000 per cent.

One way of tackling this problem is to roll out more air conditioning systems, but according to Professor Jonathan Patz at the University of Wisconsin-Madison this means trading one problem for another.

“Heatwaves are increasing and increasing in intensity. We will have more cooling demand requiring more electricity,” he said.

“If our nation continues to rely on coal-fired power plants for some of our electricity, each time we turn on the air conditioning we’ll be fouling the air, causing more sickness and even deaths.”

In a new study published in the journal PLOS Medicine, Professor Patz and his colleagues predicted that the boost in air pollution from the fossil fuels powering these systems will cause up to 1,000 additional deaths annually in the eastern US alone.

[...]

Buildings are the biggest energy sinks in the US, responsible for 60 per cent of power demand in the densely populated eastern region. Air conditioning is responsible for a significant portion of that demand.

In their study, which simulated future energy consumption and pollution levels, the researchers found between 5 and 9 per cent of future air pollution-related deaths could be linked to air conditioning.

Air pollution is thought to be responsible for millions of deaths every year, with toxic gases and particulates implicated in everything from cardiovascular disease to dementia.

[...]

I'm not going to quote the whole thing. Just read the short article.

https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8428936.html

I also hear air conditioners just work pretty much like refrigerators and freezers. To cool the inside, they obviously release heat on the outside.
So it actually appears to be some very poor (and cheap, by the way) solution, not sustainable.

Experts say the only reliable thing to do today is to design buildings and cities differently.
For example, large windows with no brise soleil (from French, "sun breaker") would not be recommended.
It is also necessary to grow many more green spaces within cities, to let them breathe, and to design urban density more like they used to in old Mediterranean towns where heatwaves are nothing much new.
You'll notice there's no large windows to old Mediterranean homes, in their ancient villages. It's often a little dark, but you still can breathe without air conditioning in there, even when temperatures hit 90°F or more.

On the other hand, urban sprawl remains far too greedy. So building cities in a dense fashion is the right thing to do.
And that's where skyscrapers can be really useful.

Your thoughts, if any. This could certainly be an interesting discussion.

[sbarn]

In places like the eastern US there is also really high humidity and dew points in the summer which ACs play a critical role reducing indoors. Unfortunately they may be a necessary evil. I think the goal should be make them more efficient / cleaner rather reducing their prevalence.

[SIGSEGV]

While air conditioning is certainly nice, I don't understand why people set the temperatures so low. It doesn't need to be fucking freezing to be comfortable.

[jtown,man]

Don't touch my AC, bro!

Really though, try living in Austin or pretty much anywhere in the South without it. If the government cares so much they should give us cleaner alternatives, which is happening quite quick in the US, as I believe we had the biggest decrease in emissions in 2017.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Really though, try living in Austin or pretty much anywhere in the South without it.

It's doable. I lived in Amarillo for the entire summer of 2015 without A/C, then I lived in Cocoa FL for most of the summer of 2016 (July and August) again without A/C. You get used to the heat.

Now, yes, if you're currently addicted to A/C then try quitting it cold turkey in the middle of a heat wave, you're probably going to find it difficult. It's easier if you just don't have it as spring and summer progressively arrive.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's doable. I lived in Amarillo for the entire summer of 2015 without A/C, then I lived in Cocoa FL for most of the summer of 2016 (July and August) again without A/C. You get used to the heat.

Now, yes, if you're currently addicted to A/C then try quitting it cold turkey in the middle of a heat wave, you're probably going to find it difficult. It's easier if you just don't have it as spring and summer progressively arrive.

Of course it's "doable". Humans live all over the planet without A/C.

I grew up in Washington DC where the typical summer day hit 94F with high humidity and we had no air conditioning in the 1950s. I never got used to it. But I survived it and no one ever doubted I would. My dad even claimed to like it. I hated it. Used to go down to the basement and lie on the concrete floor reading with a fan blowing on me. As soon as room air conditioners because available at a reasonable price, I demanded one. And I'll never be without A/C again if I'm in a climate that gets that hot (in San Francisco today was a typical July/August day with a high in the 60Fs--I don't have A/C here).

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Don't touch my AC, bro!

Really though, try living in Austin or pretty much anywhere in the South without it. If the government cares so much they should give us cleaner alternatives, which is happening quite quick in the US, as I believe we had the biggest decrease in emissions in 2017.

There would be no "sunbelt" without air conditioning. Florida had a population of 2 million in 1950. Now it's 20 million.

What's insane is that people used to take summer vacations to Michigan or Canada or Highlands, NC to avoid summer heat. Now people...GO FURTHER SOUTH AND SIT IN AIR CONDITIONING.

[Camelback]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

There would be no "sunbelt" without air conditioning. Florida had a population of 2 million in 1950. Now it's 20 million.

Think about what there wouldn't be without simple things like electricity and cheap fossil fuels used to generate that electricity and grow our food.

We would have a global population of about 500 million to 1 billion and extensively less knowledge as a species.

Humans have barely gotten to this point of comfort and excess in a fraction of a blink of an eye in geologic time. (Refer to the UFO thread).

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Camelback

Think about what there wouldn't be without simple things like electricity and cheap fossil fuels used to generate that electricity and grow our food.

We would have a global population of about 500 million to 1 billion and extensively less knowledge as a species.

Humans have barely gotten to this point of comfort and excess in a fraction of a blink of an eye in geologic time. (Refer to the UFO thread).

^Unfortunately, people waste most of their good health and free time watching TV, or more recently, screwing around on their phone keeping tabs on people they barely knew in high school.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

What's insane is that people used to take summer vacations to Michigan or Canada or Highlands, NC to avoid summer heat. Now people...GO FURTHER SOUTH AND SIT IN AIR CONDITIONING.

A lot of them leave those southern spots. The population of my area in Arizona declines by about half in summer, most departing for places like Michigan or Canada. I'm a little unusual in heading for the CA coast (high temp forecast today = 70 degrees F).

I hate "sitting in air conditioning" although it's better than the alternative (not having air conditioning in places like Tucson). As it stands, I manage to live my life in places where you can have the windows open 365 days a year.

Still, for those who must have artificial temperature manipulation, it shouldn't be necessary to burn fossil fuels to do it. We now have the technology to avoid that with distributed solar (rooftop solar panels), industrial scale wind and solar to make up any deficiency in home generation, "green hydrogen" technology to store power for when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing and so on. And I'm for the more controversial nuclear power as well.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

What's insane is that people used to take summer vacations to Michigan or Canada or Highlands, NC to avoid summer heat. Now people...GO FURTHER SOUTH AND SIT IN AIR CONDITIONING.

Yeah, people would go to places further north (like NYC residents to the Catskills) to cool off. I go north during the summer because there's fewer people there, while I go to beaches to walk the boardwalk during the winter.

[C.]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

While air conditioning is certainly nice, I don't understand why people set the temperatures so low. It doesn't need to be fucking freezing to be comfortable.

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Don't touch my AC, bro!

I work hard for my money, and I choose to spend it on keeping my place at 72.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by C.

I work hard for my money, and I choose to spend it on keeping my place at 72.

That sounds kinda decent. I guess I wouldn't catch a cold in July/August in your home, though you never know these days.

I recently heard of people suddenly dying from heat in Vancouver and Seattle. They died just like that, because their body temps went too high.
And you know what? It makes me freak out. It's not like Vancouver was in Arizona or Mexico.

So, this topic has apparently been relevant... I'll confess, I did it on purpose, because it's been a long long controversy here in my country.

I mean, maybe you should set your A/C to 77 now.
Maybe even to 80.

[mousquet]

While air conditioning is certainly nice, I don't understand why people set the temperatures so low. It doesn't need to be fucking freezing to be comfortable.

Yup! Like you have to put a sweater on to get in their homes, so you don't catch a cold in July/August in Virginia...
I agree, it's really silly.

I also believe the tech behind A/C can grow better, more efficient, just as any tech.
However, it would be wrong to rely on it exclusively.

I'm sure here in Europe, it won't be necessary in any kind of situations.
It might also depend on individuals. Some of us don't suffer so much from heat, and humidity rates are not so bad over here.

However, again, I find it great to reassure elderly people. So they know they will wake up the next morning when they go to bed at night.
It's been scary to lose many of them just because of a few days of heatwave.
Remember we're all likely to grow badly old someday. So taking care of our elders is taking care of ourselves, somehow.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Yup! Like you have to put a sweater on to get in their homes, so you don't catch a cold in July/August in Virginia...
I agree, it's really silly . . . .

I find it great to reassure elderly people. So they know they will wake up the next morning when they go to bed at night.

It's been scary to lose many of them just because of a few days of heatwave.
Remember we're all likely to grow badly old someday. So taking care of our elders is taking care of ourselves, somehow.

As the representative "old person" in this crowd, let me say that most "old people" prefer air temperatures warmer than their younger fellows. That's why so many of us move to Florida or Arizona. Personally, I find myself more frequently cold than I used to be and one of the coldest places I regularly go is the air condtioned grocery stores in Arizona. They are so cold I hate grocery shopping from late spring to early autumn when they have it on. Some other places like restaurants and so on can also be severely over-cooled but I always assume that's for the comfort of the folks working in the kitchen.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

As the representative "old person" in this crowd, let me say that most "old people" prefer air temperatures warmer than their younger fellows.

Bah, you don't seem so old yet... You must hardly be older than my mom, and she's quite in a hell of a shape, still annoying me for my girlfriends.
Lol, you know, I'm her youngest son, and she still sees me as her little baby. You see?...
It's okay, I can deal with it. She's a cool mom, basically.

Then she still likes hot spots like you guys do, huh. But she's not old enough yet.

Of course, I was talking about 80+ years old people, not about you.
Some of these still want to live too.

I'll tell you what, I'm naive enough to believe in the Genesis.
Not like those shitheads and bigots who claim the world was created 6000 years ago for whatever stupid reason.
You know, those same retards who think gambling and casinos are ok, like they could make a living out of that retarded and backward crap.
Those same people who weren't educated enough to do the math / probability, sadly...

But it says people could live up to 900+ years, until they get really really tired of this shitty world.
And I think that's actually possible, thanks to today's rising techs, such as nanotechnologies.
We can do anything for real...

I know it's nuts, but nothing is impossible in my experience, in what I have witnessed so far.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

As the representative "old person" in this crowd, let me say that most "old people" prefer air temperatures warmer than their younger fellows. That's why so many of us move to Florida or Arizona. Personally, I find myself more frequently cold than I used to be and one of the coldest places I regularly go is the air condtioned grocery stores in Arizona. They are so cold I hate grocery shopping from late spring to early autumn when they have it on. Some other places like restaurants and so on can also be severely over-cooled but I always assume that's for the comfort of the folks working in the kitchen.

I'm 39 and very much looking forward to when my internal thermostat changes as I age. As it stands now if I go to bed in a room warmer than 75 - even if I'm just in my boxers and have a light sheet on - I wake up in a pool of my own sweat. I'm really only comfortable in rooms set at 68 or less. I loathe being outside in the summer as well.

[Pedestrian]

^^Yeah, but too often when your thermostat changes, so do your taste buds. It's a running joke with my friends who know I like spicey/hot food that I enjoy sitting in my favorite Arizona Mexican joint listening to older folks complaining about the salsa being "too hot" and demanding of their servers what on the menu isn't "spicey"--I think the salsa is fine and could be hotter.

I used to be with you on the temps because, as I mentioned, I grew up suffering through Washington DC's notoriously miserable summers before private homes of the middle class had A/C. Once I could afford it, I swore I'd never be without it . . . until I discovered moving to San Francisco where you don't need it is an alternative (high temp today was a balmy 67F).

Again, to repeat, these days when I'm in AZ I keep my programmable thermostat set at 76 in the daytime (perfectly comfortable when the humidity is about 5%) and 68 at night because I still like sleeping with a blanket.

[EastSideHBG]

I think that this is a fascinating and very important topic because as the earth gets hotter we will use more AC and then that makes it hotter so then we need more AC, viscous cycle.

Originally Posted by sbarn

In places like the eastern US there is also really high humidity and dew points in the summer which ACs play a critical role reducing indoors. Unfortunately they may be a necessary evil. I think the goal should be make them more efficient / cleaner rather reducing their prevalence.

My feelings also and we need to explore this for sure.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

While air conditioning is certainly nice, I don't understand why people set the temperatures so low. It doesn't need to be fucking freezing to be comfortable.

Very true. The body adjusts and people get so used to the colder air. I can take a lot of extremes either way and adjust but after one of my highest electric bills ever due to AC (and I am very mindful of it also so I could only imagine how bad it would have been if I wasn't) I bumped my thermostat up two more degrees and soon I didn't even notice...using a fan helps a lot also.

We have always had to deal with brutal heat and humidity in the summer in my part of the country but this is something else, and the heat waves last for so long now too. When I was a kid you would get a few days and then it would break, now it can last for a week+. Also, seeing 90F+ over and over then was a big deal and now it is very common and heat indexes well into the 100s is regular.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

While air conditioning is certainly nice, I don't understand why people set the temperatures so low. It doesn't need to be fucking freezing to be comfortable.

I think businesses are the worst offenders with the temp setting. Especially office buildings. I keep a sweater in my desk because of how cold it gets in my office during the summer.

In NYC, they now aggressively ticket stores that prop open their doors during the summer while blasting the a/c under a law that was passed a couple of years ago. A lot of bars, restaurants, and clothing retailers would leave the doors open with a/cs on full blast to lure in tourists.