Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by CrazyFinger

Basically my point is, Philly could have supported every line on this map(leave out PATCO). Sure there might have been some station closures, but even if this system was in existence today, I am sure each branch would have at least 60,000 daily riders. Although those numbers aren't spectacular, they are enough to support a RT line. The lines to Bustleton and Roxborough and Darby would have even larger numbers. Believe it or not, one of the major stumbling blocks to building this system, was the debt on the City Hall construction bonds among other things, like a tight pocketed Republican government which didn't want to spend money....Not to mention a spiteful President Roosevelt who punished Philly during the depression for having a GOP government(the only large city at the time to have one).... She didn't get nearly as much federal aid as NYC and Chicago.

You do have a point with the New Deal gov't, but Chicago's system developed later w/ Richard J Daley in the 50's all the way to the 70's, way after FDR, as well as Boston's and NYC's. I'm still not pretty convinced that Philly's system didn't develop because of FDR, but rather a very corrupt, very short-sighted, and a not-so-innovative gov't (even today)!!! Something needs to change, but when, because I don't see Nutter really doing anything for the benefit and well-being of the city's future.

[CrazyFinger]

I might be wrong Wanderer.... please tell me if I am..... But in the Post War period, Philly did also see some system modifications.... like the Woodland Ave Subway.... The Market Street Extension, and the extension of the Locust Street Subway(Pre-PATCO).... You mention NYC and Chicago.... niether of them saw any new lines created post-war....like Philly, it was mostly modifications.... ie..The Christie St tunnel in NYC.... and the State St/Dearborn St subways in Chicago.

[phillyscooter]

Lets see round two of the economic stimulus money go to the blvd and a roxborough extension to the BSL

Maybe by 2030 it will be open

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by CrazyFinger

I might be wrong Wanderer.... please tell me if I am..... But in the Post War period, Philly did also see some system modifications.... like the Woodland Ave Subway.... The Market Street Extension, and the extension of the Locust Street Subway(Pre-PATCO).... You mention NYC and Chicago.... niether of them saw any new lines created post-war....like Philly, it was mostly modifications.... ie..The Christie St tunnel in NYC.... and the State St/Dearborn St subways in Chicago.

You're right about the Woodland Ave subway, but it's light-rail, and I'm not including PATCO since it's target demographic is NJ. I was referring to serving within Philly and the PA side, and IMHO, the Market St Extension should've gone all the way to 69th St in Upper Darby.

You seem to be forgetting that Chicago built the Orange Line to Midway Airport in the 90's, plus NYC extended it's system by adding the Rockaway shuttle in Queens, and the Dyre Ave extension from 180th St (5-train) in the Bronx, in which both were owned by private railroad companies.

[pwp]

Finally, SEPTA's getting 'smart'
By DAN GERINGER
Philadelphia Daily News

geringd@phillynews.com 215-854-5961

THIS IS the dawning of the Age of SEPTArius!

Finally!

Philadelphia, the last major American city where transit riders line up to pay cash for tokens, is on the verge of getting a high-tech fare system that will make riding SEPTA as easy as using E-ZPass on the turnpike.

Or as easy as riding public transit in Chicago, Boston, New York City, Atlanta, Los Angeles and Seattle, where smart cards have replaced tokens, and long lines for tokens, and discovering too late that you don't have exact change for tokens and the toll-booth attendant doesn't make change for tokens and you're stuck.

Or as easy as buying morning coffee at Wawa, or a pack of gum at CVS, or a lawnmower at Home Depot or just about anything in Philly - except a SEPTA fare.

The token, which has been a pain-in-the-mass-transit here for decades, could go the way of horse-drawn trolleys by 2011, said John McGee, SEPTA's chief officer of new-payment technology.

He is reviewing proposals for a token-free future, in which lines and exact change will be replaced by a smart card, imbedded with an "electronic-purse" computerized chip, fed by an online account.

"I would like for folks to be able to pay for a SEPTA trip by using whatever they have in their pocket - a credit/debit card, a student ID card, a cell phone with a computerized sticker that acts as a surrogate credit/debit card, whatever," he told the Daily News.

"Like the smart card, the [smart] sticker has a chip in it that the electronic sensor on the fare box reads," he said. "You could even stick it on your forehead, if you wanted to. But you'd probably want to stick it on your cell phone."

Eliminating tokens and limited-time passes "would be way better," said Sabrheya Fox, 18, yesterday, while emerging from the underground concourse at Broad and Market streets with her friend Dinah Alexander, 20.

She said that she would prefer spending her money on a smart card instead of a pass that expires every week or month. Alexander agreed. SEPTA's passes "expire before you get full use out of them," she said.

Using smart cards/stickers instead of cash fares, McGee said, will end this familiar SEPTA nightmare:

"You walk into a SEPTA El station and you have to use a vending machine that you need to spend 30 minutes on a tutorial to understand," he said. "If you walk into the El with a $10 or $20 bill, the question is: Will the vending machine make change? At many stations, if you don't have exact change, we can't accommodate you."

That's why McGee hopes that smart cards replace cash as fare instruments for most of the 325 million trips that SEPTA riders take each year.

At the entrance to the train, bus or trolley, smart cards, imbedded with a computer chip and an antenna, are simply tapped against the fare box's electronic sensor, which instantly reads the card, charges the fare and sends you on your way. It also does transfers electronically.

McGee envisions using name-brand, credit/debit smart cards, as well as SEPTA gift-type cards, where there's a fixed value, say $20, and the rider can buy more value as that $20 gets spent.

After a decade of deprivation and doomsday scenarios, SEPTA has a stable funding stream plus $190 million in federal stimulus money, and it is rockin' - new ecologically "green" buses, a new Market Street El, new Regional Rail cars on the way, rehabbing and rebuilding construction projects under way all over the system, and online, real-time train/bus info and Google-based trip planning.

Bob Lund, senior director of SEPTA's capital construction, said that $117 million in stimulus-funded projects are under way - from the $30 million rehab of the Broad Street Line's ancient Girard and Spring Garden stations beginning this week to the replacement in Montgomery County of a 1905 bridge and the rehab of two others from the 1930s.

"By the middle of August, you're going to see stimulus-projects contractors working everywhere," Lund said. "By September, we'll be full force into this. We have a very old system with a lot of needs, so the stimulus money is a very good thing."

But using tokens and paper transfers in 2009 is like using Clydesdales to pull the C bus down Broad Street. McGee looks forward to smart cards by 2011.

"Buses and trolleys will continue to have a fare box, because some of our riders will always use cash," he said. "But as new systems are deployed, there will be a diminishing number of cash users."

As proof, McGee cited the Philadelphia School District, which, he said, went from using "60,000 tokens a day to next to nothing - a few hundred a week - last year after SEPTA introduced a special school pass [swipe card] to replace them. The only ones being used were tokens that people had stashed away. That's the same thing that will happen with adult tokens."

Kimberly Robinson, 25, a native New Yorker who lives in West Philly and takes SEPTA to and from work, said, "I like [the smart card] better than tokens, honestly. It's easier to have a pass [like New York's Metrocard] where you can put money on it whenever you want."

Erica Johnson, 19, of Olney, said yesterday that smart cards would be "a lot easier" because the places that sell tokens "are sometimes closed. You can't buy them all the time."

Craig Roberts, technology-development director at the Utah Transit Authority, said that Salt Lake City, where UTA issued 210,000 contactless smart cards to students and employees of large corporations last January, is the first American city where riders can use their contactless bank credit/debit cards, as well as the transit system's cards.

Steve Frazzini, chief fare-payment officer at New York City Transit, said, "[We] have completed a very successful pilot on our largest subway line in New York City and will demonstrate a second phase at year's end that includes acceptance of contactless payment devices from all card brands and issuing banks, with real-time authorization."

Frazzini said that the next phase will include up to 275 buses and will link to a pilot with the Port Authority of NY/NJ, PATH and New Jersey Transit.

Meanwhile, back in Philly, McGee prepares to pick a smart-card partner this fall and dreams of the day when the token goes the nostalgic way of its pre-SEPTA predecessors - as this online ad at www.nycwebstore reveals:

"Philadelphia Transit Token Cufflinks - Designed for the discriminating man, these sterling silver cufflinks feature vintage Philadelphia transit tokens. Remember having a pocketful of tokens?" *

Staff writer St. John Barned-Smith contributed to this report.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ho...g__smart_.html

[EastSideHBG]

Oh wow, this is so exciting! So in TWO MORE YEARS YET we will be on par with the...90s?!?



Stupid SEPTA...

[Muji]

SEPTA seeks input on Regional Rail name changes

By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer

Are you ready for a train ride on the Chartreuse Line?

Or a trip on the B Train? A journey on the No. 10? How about just a ride on the Paoli Line?

SEPTA is considering getting rid of the "R" train route designations it has used for 25 years. The system is confusing for infrequent riders and tourists, general manager Joseph Casey says, and needs to be replaced with something easier to understand.

But what?

Train lines could be designated by colors. Or final destination points. Or letters. Or numbers.

"We're trying to get input from riders and other stakeholders," Casey said after SEPTA officials made their pitch last week to city and county officials, passenger advocates, and others. "We're trying to make it easier to use the system."

Opponents of a name change, including top city transportation officials, worry that the new designations would be part of a broader plan to change the way SEPTA operates its trains. Such changes, they say, would undermine the integrated rail network created in 1984 when the Center City tunnel linked the old Pennsylvania and Reading rail lines.

SEPTA officials insist that only the names would change; operations would remain the same.

Currently, SEPTA's 13 train routes are labeled R1 through R8, except that there is no R4. And there are two different final destinations for each R route, except for the R1 line, the airport branch.

For instance, some R3 trains terminate at Media or Elwyn in Delaware County. Other R3s run to West Trenton. Regular commuters know the difference between the R3/Media-Elwyn line and the R3/West Trenton line, but SEPTA says passengers unfamiliar with the system can easily end up on the wrong train.

"We get hundreds of complaints each year from people who get on the wrong R5 or the wrong R7," said Byron S. Comati, director of strategic planning and analysis for SEPTA.

"There's pretty good agreement that the current system is confusing," said Matthew Mitchell of the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers. "If you hang around a Center City station for 20 minutes, you'll see several people trying to figure out, 'What stairway is my train?'

"But there's no one right answer for what to use in place" of the R designators, Mitchell said.

One proposal is to return to the nomenclature used in pre-SEPTA days, when Philadelphia trains were operated by the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Reading Co. The routes were designated by their end points: the Chestnut Hill line, the Paoli line, the Trenton line.

That's also the system used by many other U.S. commuter rail operations, including those in New Jersey, New York City, and Chicago.

Other possibilities include using 13 separate letters or numbers to designate the routes, such as the A line and the B line, or the 10 line and the 12 line. Some have suggested using new R designators, from R1 to R13.

Or SEPTA could use 13 color names for the train routes.

The lines already have colors associated with them on SEPTA signs and printed schedules: green for the R6, red for the R7, and blue for the R5, for example. But more colors would be needed for both ends of the paired lines, and there could be confusion between SEPTA's subway and trolley color designations (the Broad Street Line is orange, the Market-Frankford Line is blue, and the Subway-Surface Lines are green).

The current R designations were created when SEPTA completed the Center City tunnel in 1984, connecting the former Pennsylvania and Reading systems. Instead of terminating at Suburban Station or the Reading Terminal, trains could operate through to the other end of the line. An R7 train could run from Trenton to Chestnut Hill East, for example.

But today, most rail trips don't run from one end of a line to the other. Only 33 percent of weekday trips are end-to-end runs, according to SEPTA.

Many trains go to Center City, then to a rail yard to be sent out on another line. And 19 percent change R designations as they leave Center City without stopping in a yard.

Luther Diggs, chief operations officer, said the proposed changes in route designations would not mean a change in the way trains operate.

"What we intended to do 25 years ago and what we actually did are two different things," Diggs said. "We're not changing anything from an operations standpoint."

But Christopher Zearfoss, the city's senior transportation project manager, said SEPTA could renumber routes without losing the concept of through service on the rail lines.

"The city sponsored the [Center City tunnel] project," Zearfoss said in an e-mail to SEPTA officials and others who attended last Wednesday's meeting. "Our federal and state grant applications justified the project, in part, on achieving 'continuous . . . fully integrated rail service . . . while enhancing the convenience and attractiveness of the system and improving accessibility.' Marginalizing the usefulness of through-[tunnel] travel seems to run counter to these representations made to our federal and state funding agencies."

He said nothing would eliminate all passenger confusion.

"To paraphrase the Bible, the confused rider you will have always with you," he wrote. "Despite best efforts, there is no foolproof firewall against those riders who are distracted, multi-tasking, hurried, agitated, or just plain careless; they will make mistakes. . . . But that is no pretext for discontinuing those important scheduling practices."

Zearfoss suggested assigning 13 separate R numbers to the rail lines, and having the "public timetables continue to highlight the fact that most trains on the two lines are combined and operate through the [Center City tunnel], thereby affording frequent 'suburb-to-suburb' service without change of trains."

Vukan R. Vuchic, a University of Pennsylvania transportation professor who was a creator of the R designation system 25 years ago, said SEPTA was making a big mistake in trying to get rid of it.

"It is already confusing for passengers, and SEPTA wants to give less information? What kind of logic is that?" Vuchic asked. "They just want the freedom to send their trains as it fits their needs, that's all they're concerned about."

Kim Scott Heinle, SEPTA assistant general manager for customer service, emphasized that no decision had been made on the R changes and that SEPTA wanted more input from passengers and other interested parties.

"This is a customer-service initiative," Heinle said. "It's all about improving our ability to attract new people to the system. We truly believe that there are a number of folks that get into the system and go where they don't want to go."

In a change expected to attract less concern, SEPTA also plans to do away with the Route 100 designation for the rail line that runs between Norristown and 69th Street Terminal in Upper Darby. SEPTA will call it simply the Norristown High-Speed Line, beginning in September.

Some passengers still refer to that line as the P&W, in reference to its pre-SEPTA origins as the Philadelphia & Western Railroad.

SEPTA officials also plan to color-code all trolley lines green, including the current Green Line subway-surface trolleys in West Philadelphia, the Routes 101 and 102 trolleys that run from 69th Street Terminal to Media and Sharon Hill, and the Route 15 trolley that runs along Girard Avenue.

I personally find the current Regional Rail naming system perfectly reasonable, it's very similar to the one Paris' RER network uses - but then again, both systems are known to pose problems to visitors and infrequent riders, so I could see the argument for it. I don't see why the city is so hung up on the concept of through service from suburb-to-suburb, which SEPTA doesn't really do, and virtually no one uses or would use anyway.

[volguus zildrohar]

It's the continuation of some of SEPTA's trademark inanity.

The Center City Tunnel is truly unique among US commuter systems. Philadelphia, unlike other large commuter systems, has an integrated train system. There aren't multiple stub-end terminals scattered across downtown. One doesn't need to catch the Blue Line two stops. You can get anywhere dowtown from wherever you're coming from and not worry about it. Boston is still trying to work that issue out. New Yorkers dream of it. It's probably a pipe dream for the people of Chicago but it's reality here. The tunnel helped reinforce the idea of a 'metro' system and in many ways SEPTA advertises it more to tourists and infrequent riders than it does the actual subway system (you'd almost never know there was one if you went by the tourist literature).

The concept for the 'R' designations isn't a bad one but I can't see how it's a huge problem for infrequent riders who:

A) Can read
B) Can ask directions

The three downtown stations aren't nearly as confusing as your average NYC subway station which also feature trains marked with a single designation - A train to 207th or the Rockaways or Lefferts Blvd anyone? Those trains aren't anymore confusing than SEPTA's RR so I honestly don't see what exactly the need or cause is.

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

It's the continuation of some of SEPTA's trademark inanity.

The Center City Tunnel is truly unique among US commuter systems. Philadelphia, unlike other large commuter systems, has an integrated train system. There aren't multiple stub-end terminals scattered across downtown. One doesn't need to catch the Blue Line two stops. You can get anywhere dowtown from wherever you're coming from and not worry about it. Boston is still trying to work that issue out. New Yorkers dream of it. It's probably a pipe dream for the people of Chicago but it's reality here. The tunnel helped reinforce the idea of a 'metro' system and in many ways SEPTA advertises it more to tourists and infrequent riders than it does the actual subway system (you'd almost never know there was one if you went by the tourist literature).

The concept for the 'R' designations isn't a bad one but I can't see how it's a huge problem for infrequent riders who:

A) Can read
B) Can ask directions

The three downtown stations aren't nearly as confusing as your average NYC subway station which also feature trains marked with a single designation - A train to 207th or the Rockaways or Lefferts Blvd anyone? Those trains aren't anymore confusing than SEPTA's RR so I honestly don't see what exactly the need or cause is.

Yeah....I don't understand how people are confused since the boards at each station and above each track clearly state where each train is going.

I had zero problem using SEPTA to go from Exton to Trenton to connect to NJ Transit to go to New York. I think I waited about 15 minutes at 30th Street for my connection to the R7.

The issues I have with SEPTA Regional Rail is that they charge me $2 extra when I board at Exton because we do not have a ticket office. I then have to have it refunded to me on my return trip. That makes no sense to me.

Also..the other issue I have is that SEPTA runs most of the R5 trains that do not go to Thorndale to only Malvern. Malvern has a small parking lot and the station isn't near any major highway. Exton has much larger parking lots that are currently being expanded and it's right there along the busy intersection of Route 100 and the 30 bypass. The late night service doesn't come out this far either. It would seem to me that SEPTA should advertise in Chester County for people to use the train service from Exton instead of people driving into the city. The station is only 4 miles from West Chester as well. We have zero Sunday service and you can only use Amtrak.

[Qubert]

The regional rail system is pure awesomeness, except for frequencies. Only the R5 Paoli currently runs on any decent schedule off-peak. Others that should run half-hourly should be the R7 Trenton, R3 West Trenton, R5 Doylestown and maybe the R6 Norristown.

[Muji]

I understand that the Center City Commuter Tunnel is an amazing asset to the region, but I still see no reason for every single train to start from one suburban terminus and go all the way to the other one. Isn't it already convenient enough to be able to catch any RR train from any downtown station? I know I certainly take advantage of this all the time.

But back to the point of naming, almost every first-time rider I've encountered has gone through a "there are TWO R5 lines?!" moment of confusion. And sadly for a lot of people, especially if it leads to a missed or wrong train, it's a permanent turnoff from taking SEPTA again. Sure it's probably their mostly their fault and their loss, but it's ours too in the long run if it adds up to less transit use. Essentially, anything SEPTA wants to do to improve the experience of first-time riders has my support.

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by Muji

but I still see no reason for every single train to start from one suburban terminus and go all the way to the other one.

This is done to make things simpler from an operational standpoint.

It would be a real PITA for instance if Septa were to run a R5 from Lansdale into 30th St, clear out the train, move the operator to the other end, run necessary brake tests, then head back to Suburban and cross over all of the tracks. At the same time you'd have a Paoli train tying up a track at Temple or Market East doing the same thing.

It's much simpler to start picking up Paoli Riders at Temple and just run straight through.

[Qubert]

There's Powelton and Roberts Yard for those functions....

[theWatusi]

So in the middle of the rush you want a trainset to go out of service for 20 minutes to go to a yard and turn around? WHY? This would take trains and crew out of revenue service for no good reason.

It just makes sense for the trains to run through the CCCT and turn into a different line.

[PhillyRising]

Has anyone seen any electronic ticket machines anywhere in the Regional Rail system other than the one at Trenton which is really NJ Transit's. The sign here in Exton for the parking expansion said the project includes electronic ticket machines under a shelter. I'm seeing the framing of a shelter already erected on the outbound platform. I'm hope to God SEPTA doesn't screw this up and only put the ticket machines on that side of the station.

[theWatusi]

There are no ticket vending machines anywhere on Septa. Maybe the sign you saw is for an electronic parking payment machine?

They have one at North Wales which is pretty sweet...you can use change, bills, or a rechargeable parking debit card.

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

There are no ticket vending machines anywhere on Septa. Maybe the sign you saw is for an electronic parking payment machine?

They have one at North Wales which is pretty sweet...you can use change, bills, or a rechargeable parking debit card.

The sign in the station clearly reads that it will have electronic ticket machines installed as part of this project. I don't know why they don't use the same ones NJ Transit uses for ticket purchases.

[hammersklavier]

Changing RR designations is just obfuscating the real issue. If our RR designations work just as well as Paris' RER designations then we're obviously doing something right...SEPTA first has to address issues like its archaic fare-collection system, annoying fact that you still have to pay an extra $2 onboard for the fare if there's no ticket agent, lack of automated ticket machines, lack of heavy rail through large parts of the city yaddi yadda yadda...

Why are they making the 101 and 102 green? Are they going to add the 15 to the rail transit map? If they're getting rid of the brown color designation, is there a new Brown Line in the works?

[Muji]

PATCO gives a few details on Franklin Square's reopening

Inside the Franklin Square PATCO stop

By Paul Nussbaum
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

The re-opened Franklin Square subway stop may feature a street-level station building in Franklin Square park, PATCO officials said today as they opened the long-dormant "ghost station" for a press tour.

A headhouse building in the newly refurbished park would be the more expensive of the designs now under consideration, PATCO general manager Robert Box said. A cheaper alternative would call for just reopening the stairwell on the northeast corner of Seventh and Race streets and adding an elevator.

Box said final designs should be ready in six months, with the station ready for use by late 2010 or early 2011.

The 73-year-old subway station, with a green-and-white tile motif and a gaudy orange lobby area, was last used in 1979.

Development around Franklin Square and the rebirth of the once-seedy square have convinced PATCO officials that the station will have what it lacked in the past: passengers.

Box said he expected the reopened station would initially attract about 500 additional riders to the PATCO line.

The National Constitution Center, the boom in Northern Liberties, and redevelopment of the old Metropolitan Hospital as MetroClub condominiums have brought renewed bustle to a square isolated by busy streets and Benjamin Franklin Bridge ramps.

There are no official cost estimates for the remodeling of the old subway stop, but last year, chief executive John Matheussen estimated it would cost at least $5 million to $10 million to install elevators and udate the station interior.

This will be at least the fifth opening for Franklin Square Station.

It debuted in 1936 as the first Philadelphia stop on the Camden-Philadelphia rail line owned by the Delaware River Joint River Commission and operated by the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co.

The station soon closed because it got little use. Increased activity on the riverfront during World War II prompted its reopening.

Closed again after the war, the station was reactivated in 1953 when the line was extended from Eighth and Market Streets to 15th and Locust Streets. It was soon closed again for lack of use. PATCO took over the line in 1969.

In 1976, when Philadelphia was a center of the nation's Bicentennial celebration, PATCO spent $1.1 million to renovate and reopen Franklin Square Station. It closed again in 1979.

The station now serves as an occasional storage site for construction crews working in the PATCO tunnel. It has electrical power to operate the dim emergency lights that remain and to provide air-compressor power for rail switches.

In the dim light, old signs remain visible, in French, Spanish and English, telling riders "How To Go PATCO" and listing 70's-era fares (75 cents to Lindenwold, 55 cents to Center City and Camden stations).

I'm always happy to see existing infrastructure being put to use, but is this really worth the money for 500 additional passengers (sure that's only an initial estimate but it seems shockingly small)? I guess if it helps to leverage new development somewhere that could really use it.

On a side note, I don't think anyone really wants to walk between Franklin Square and NoLibs...

[phillyscooter]

Franklin Sq. is a good idea, I wish however we could see the line extended from the terminus @ 18th / Locust to the Art Museum, to increase cross bridge traffic (a goal of PATCO). The LRV line down Del Av just doesn't get me excited....