NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There is no station in the western world as busy as Penn. And I can't think of any major European station with fewer tracks than Penn, even though none have similar ridership. For example, Frankfurt HBF, probably the most important station in Europe, has 30 tracks, but only 450k daily users.

You want to tell me Les Halles is used less intensely than Penn?

The capability is the tunnel. It makes total sense.

Which is not funded and the future of which is highly dependent on federal level politics. Also neither of the new portal bridge projects are funded either which are required to utilize new Hudson tubes.

ESA was always planned in concert with capacity additions to the east, just like Penn improvements are planned in concert with capacity additions to the west

ESA was supposed to be in service a decade ago and looks sketchy to make the 2022 completion. The Ronkonkoma double track only finished near the end of 2018 and the third main is scheduled (lol) for 2022. Had it been completed on time the ESA terminal would have sat there not much raising overall LIRR capacity for probably 15 years. What a country.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Now I think I understand the ridiculous posts. It's satire. Just trolling for a reaction.

Yeah, there is absolutely no value to spending a penny on public transit in the most transit-dependent location in North America, underneath the largest and most productive business district on the planet, in a region encompassing 10% of the U.S. economy. The money should be flushed down the toilet in foreign adventures rather than giving people prosperity and mobility in the U.S.

Like the LGA AirTrain we're not saying don't build anything. We're saying build something else that will be far more useful to even more people if we're going to spend a huge pile of cash.

It's obvious his comment was hyperbolic.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by k1052

You want to tell me Les Halles is used less intensely than Penn?

Obviously, yes. Chatalet isn't even an intercity station, and has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Chatalet would be analogous to Times Square, Herald Square or Union Square. RER numbers at Chatalet are nowhere close to Penn (or Gare du Nord or countless other stations).

Originally Posted by k1052

Which is not funded and the future of which is highly dependent on federal level politics. Also neither of the new portal bridge projects are funded either which are required to utilize new Hudson tubes.

Not true, Gateway already has more than $2 billion in secured funding commitments.

And I have no idea what any of these means. Because an idiot is in the White House, NYC should destroy itself?

Obviously local agencies will continue to push for improvements to Penn and other transit systems, even if the feds are presently hostile. These projects take years and you don't just throw up your hands and do nothing because there's an idiot in office, especially because states and localities can do a lot on their own. There will probably be five more Presidents before everything gets wrapped up with the Empire Station complex.

Originally Posted by k1052

ESA was supposed to be in service a decade ago and looks sketchy to make the 2022 completion.

What is your point? Do you have any point? Should we blow up Grand Central because we have to wait two more years for service?

The underground North End of Grand Central, planned from the beginning, wasn't built until the 1990's, 80 years after the station was built. When you enter Grand Central from the north, along Madison, Park and Lex, you're using a section of the station that is only 25 years old.

If you were in charge of the NY Central RR back in the early 1900's, you probably would have ordered terminal construction to halt, because the project was incomplete. Absurd. There is no perfect project.

Originally Posted by k1052

The Ronkonkoma double track only finished near the end of 2018 and the third main is scheduled (lol) for 2022.

Again, what is your point? You're just saying random things about transit projects not getting completed by their initial dates, as if this is unexpected, rare or relevant. We know that big transit projects are delayed by years/decades, and over budget, worldwide . That doesn't mean you do nothing.

Originally Posted by k1052

Had it been completed on time the ESA terminal would have sat there not much raising overall LIRR capacity for probably 15 years. What a country.

No. Totaly nonsense. In your weird, irrelevent hypothetical, ESA would have provided massive new capacity by offering eight new platforms at Grand Central, and a new East River tunnel, where there was previously none. The LI track expansions are primarily useful for reverse commuting, and provide slightly more inbound rush hour capacity, but will not make much of a difference with overall ESA ridership. Only 2 of 9 lines are affected.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Obviously, yes. Chatalet isn't even an intercity station, and has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Chatalet would be analogous to Times Square, Herald Square or Union Square. RER numbers at Chatalet are nowhere close to Penn (or Gare du Nord or countless other stations).

The RER does 500k a day there.

Not true, Gateway already has more than $2 billion in secured funding commitments.

The entirely of Gateway is $30B. The new Hudson Tunnels alone and rehabbing the existing is about $13B of that.

And I have no idea what any of these means. Because an idiot is in the White House, NYC should destroy itself?

Obviously local agencies will continue to push for improvements to Penn and other transit systems, even if the feds are presently hostile. These projects take years and you don't just throw up your hands and do nothing because there's an idiot in office, especially because states and localities can do a lot on their own. There will probably be five more Presidents before everything gets wrapped up with the Empire Station complex.

Construction costs will continue to escalate in the interim. It will probably cost double current estimates if they actually get started in 10 years time the way things are going.

Again, what is your point? You're just saying random things about transit projects not getting completed by their initial dates, as if this is unexpected, rare or relevant. We know that big transit projects are delayed by years/decades, and over budget, worldwide . That doesn't mean you do nothing.

It is, at least, 13 years late and 300% over budget. This is absolutely not common outside of the US. Are they even done in Harold yet?

No. Totaly nonsense. In your weird, irrelevent hypothetical, ESA would have provided massive new capacity by offering eight new platforms at Grand Central, and a new East River tunnel, where there was previously none. The LI track expansions are primarily useful for reverse commuting, and provide slightly more inbound rush hour capacity, but will not make much of a difference with overall ESA ridership. Only 2 of 9 lines are affected.

The main line segment carries LIRR's busiest service and its saturated at rush The extra track also provides redundancy for corridor issues. If they can't get trains into the city they can be turned and sent back out again or reallocated to other branches if need be so the effects of any disruption compound.

[mrnyc]

why are you advocating for doing nothing?

of course the costs for gateway balloon as time goes by, but at least the empire/penn station south costs will now be fixed in time.

one piece at a time? ok so get done what you can. thats how it is at the moment. post trump who knows? hopefully someone will care about transit and will fund the tunnels after trump reneged on the deal in spite over his election results around here.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

why are you advocating for doing nothing?

of course the costs for gateway balloon as time goes by, but at least the empire/penn station south costs will now be fixed in time.

one piece at a time? ok so get done what you can. thats how it is at the moment. post trump who knows? hopefully someone will care about transit and will fund the tunnels after trump reneged on the deal in spite over his election results around here.

I actually propose that we do spend a load of money but spend it differently to get way more bang for the buck:

Originally Posted by k1052

Go stand at the RER station at Les Halles that does half a million people a day on four big platforms. The big differences are station design and how the service is run to maximize the physical assets.

I'd essentially turn Penn into the same thing but almost triple the size (and thus capacity) by demoing MSG to build a gigantic mezzanine with wide platform-mezz-street access points, filling in tracks to widen the platforms, add the two Hudson tubes, and making NJT-LIRR-Amtrak thru run all services. If anything stands at the platform for more than a couple minutes then something would be wrong. There would be no flat crossing movements.

This is a reasonable illustration of such a plan:

[aquablue]

This plan is a travesty, he's just putting lipstick on a pig. MSG is the big elephant in the room that needs to be electrocuted like Thomas Edison did to Topsy and then shredded in a shredder like the degenerate it is. It's a turd and to be trying to doll it up is insulting to the citizens of NY (well, those that care about design which is probably like .0001 percent). Cuomo go back to dealing with LaGuardia (or maybe don't (air-train, oof!)) and get somebody who knows about train travel to fix Penn.

[mrnyc]

^ exactly, for the most grand plans possible, the question is what is to be done with msg? because it would have to go.

for now, cuomo's plan is cheaper and more doable. he's dodging the dolan's tho, there is no doubt about that.

[chris08876]

Eminent domain could be used for Penn Station plans thanks to clause in state budget

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo laid the groundwork for his ambitious new plan to redevelop Penn Station almost two years ago.

The governor included a clause in budget legislation that would allow the state to use eminent domain in the Penn Station neighborhood, according to the Wall Street Journal. The language said that Penn Station was “antiquated, substandard and inadequate” and needed to be modernized for the sake of public safety.

The language also instructed the state to fix these problems by starting to plan for the station and surrounding areas, which were not specified. Legal experts say the state could use this language to justify using eminent domain to carry out its plans.

Cuomo announced in January that he would look to acquire private real estate to expand Penn Station. The area in question spans 30th and 31st streets between Seventh and Eighth avenues, and it includes a homeless shelter, a Roman Catholic church, restaurants, bars and offices.

Landlord Michael Orbach, whose company owns an office building in the area, has already said he has no intention of selling his property to the state.

Cuomo did not explicitly mention using eminent domain to acquire the land, but Manhattan Institute senior fellow Nicole Gelinas was skeptical.

“It’s the normal interplay between the state and the city,” she said, “where Cuomo is almost always the smarter party and gets the better end of the deal.”

====================
TRD

[NYer34]

If anything, take the Garden by eminent domain. It's a POS on the streetscape.

And the Ed Logue / Bob Moses wannabe that Cuomo is better plan for a way to relocate St. John the Baptist Church. There are a few buildings worth saving on that block, and that one (with its rectory) would be a crime against NYC heritage to bulldoze for the sake of expanding an irreparably shi**y station.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ exactly, for the most grand plans possible, the question is what is to be done with msg? because it would have to go.

for now, cuomo's plan is cheaper and more doable. he's dodging the dolan's tho, there is no doubt about that.

The plan to move it into the Farley Annex really was the best option. Alas that ship has sailed and there are few places in Manhattan these days you could put it. Maybe on a pier off downtown near the seaport, it would be a mostly acceptable walk from a number of subway services and PATH. Long Island city would be another option but probably too much political friction.

The least expensive/difficult option wold probably be somewhere like Willets Point that has ample land. I assume the dumb LGA air train will inevitably be built and LIRR start running shuttles out there every 15 minutes or so on the Port Washington branch as the East Side Access will (crosses fingers and toes) be open by then so there would be plenty of transit access in addition to the 7 train.

[Busy Bee]

The Farley solution, the best solution, notwithstanding...

If MSG ever leaves Manhattan it will be to Sunnyside Yard. MSG doesn't need to leave the city and shouldn't have to BUT Sunnyside is the only other location with such a confluence of rail and assuming a new MSG would be built on top or adjacent to a new Sunnyside station serving subway connections, LIRR, Metro-North and even NJT through trains, it has no competition transportation wise or its centrality than, wait for it....

On top of or part of a new Port Authority Bus Terminal complex(including possibly over the Lincoln tunnel/PA bus ramp spaghetti. The PABT has more or less the same subway access than Penn and when you add in the bus connections it would not be significantly different access wise than a 34th St location. You could also incorporate that "infill" 41st St 7 station into the western side of the complex AS WELL AS modifying the West Side Line (Empire Connection) to terminate some Metro-North trains under a new modern PABT or at the very least a station integrated with a new 7 station that would serve a combined PABT and MSG sports/entertainment complex within a few blocks of Times Sq.


I don't buy the argument that Manhattan doesn't have room for a relocated MSG. It just takes some imagination and will to make a special solution possible. If the need for public transportation connections wasn't a factor it could go all sorts of places: LES waterfront, east Harlem or Manhattanville in West Harlem, Sherman Creek up in Inwood just to name a few. And just to throw this in there you could in theory put it right on Madison Sq Park south of 23rd or east of Broadway but it would require massive demolitions and spanning of side streets to accomodate a sizable arena, but it would be pretty neat.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The Farley solution, the best solution, notwithstanding...

If MSG ever leaves Manhattan it will be to Sunnyside Yard. MSG doesn't need to leave the city and shouldn't have to BUT Sunnyside is the only other location with such a confluence of rail and assuming a new MSG would be built on top or adjacent to a new Sunnyside station serving subway connections, LIRR, Metro-North and even NJT through trains, it has no competition transportation wise or its centrality than, wait for it....

On top of or part of a new Port Authority Bus Terminal complex(including possibly over the Lincoln tunnel/PA bus ramp spaghetti. The PABT has more or less the same subway access than Penn and when you add in the bus connections it would not be significantly different access wise than a 34th St location. You could also incorporate that 41st St 7 station into the western side of the complex AS WELL AS modifying the West Side Line (Empire Connection) to terminate some Metro-North trains under a new modern PABT or at the very least a station integrated with a new 7 station that would serve a combined PABT and MSG sports/entertainment complex within a few blocks of Times Sq.

Politically I doubt Sunnyside will happen unless there is some major realignment of the powers that be. The Feds would also have to be involved.

I thought about PABT. I probably would not spend all that money on 41st street or the Empire Connection. Penn is only one subway stop south and the 7 is readily accessed through the 41st Street passageway. The site does offer a big enough contiguous parcel to put MSG but the PA has even yet to figure out how/if/when they are going to replace the existing facility. Throwing MSG on top of it isn't likely to help clear things up anytime soon.

[Busy Bee]

Big Things Take Big Brains

[NYguy]

https://www.metro-magazine.com/rail/...tation-project

NY MTA selects firms to bid on Metro-North Penn Station project





February 11, 2020

The New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) today announced the list of construction firms deemed qualified to submit proposals to design and build the MTA’s Metro-North Penn Access Project. The project will bring Metro-North Railroad service into Penn Station by 2023 and create four new ADA- accessible stations in the east Bronx.

Penn Station Access is expected to draw new riders to public transit and generate major time savings for existing Metro-North customers. The MTA anticipates up to 50,000 customer trips will be made per day on the new route, including up to 20,000 that start or end at the four new stations in the Bronx.

-Customers who travel between the east Bronx and Penn Station can save up to 45 minutes of travel time over current alternatives.

-Customers who travel between the east Bronx and New Haven Line stations can save up to 80 minutes of travel time over current alternatives.

-Metro-North customers who travel between existing New Haven Line stations and Penn Station (who now connect to subways to complete this trip) are projected to save 16 minutes each way.

The qualified design-build entities will be invited to enter a competitive solicitation process in which a request-for-proposals will highlight the project’s emphasis on meeting project milestone dates and minimizing local community impacts of construction, among other priorities. No contract will be awarded until after the environmental review process is concluded, a formal “Finding of No Significant Impact” is issued by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA), and the contract is approved by the MTA Board. Contractors will be expected to include in their bids specific efforts to reduce the impacts of construction:

The qualified consortia announced today include:

-Halmar International, LLC/Railworks, JV (Ove Arup & Partners PC, Lead Designer)

-Skanska ECCO III Penn Station Connectors, JV (AECOM USA Inc., Lead Designer)

-Tutor Perini/O&G, JV (Parsons Transportation Group of New York Inc., Lead Designer)

• Video Link

[nito]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There is no station in the western world as busy as Penn. And I can't think of any major European station with fewer tracks than Penn, even though none have similar ridership. For example, Frankfurt HBF, probably the most important station in Europe, has 30 tracks, but only 450k daily users.

Whilst there is something to admire from NY Penn managing such high passenger volumes with limited resources, there is ultimately little to celebrate from a station that is dilapidated, a poor experience unbefitting of a world city and unable to cope with current let alone future demands.

Waterloo managed just shy of 100mn with 19 tracks before it underwent a small expansion project and now has 24 (ridership dipped during the reconstruction but is forecast to grow substantially). Gare du Nord is busier but has more platforms. Of course, London and Paris have several termini station in the central core which distribute significantly higher volumes overall as well as through-running routes. Beyond the improved visual aesthetics, these stations also tend to have wider platforms, concourses capable of handling larger volumes of people, as well as more access points to aid in distribution of passengers. It also helps to have modern rolling-stock with walk-through carriages and wide doors for quick alighting.

The two recurring problems facing commuter rail into New York are:
i) the lack of access points (just 10 tracks for LIRR, MNR and NJT) into Manhattan, and
ii) the lack of through running (the exception being Amtrak) which would drastically increase capacity by increasing platform utilisation.

From an outsider’s perspective, the likes of East Side Access and Penn South come across as bloated projects with limited resolution to resolving regional issues. Everywhere else is moving away from increasing terminal commuter rail capacity because it isn’t an effective use of resources.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by nito

Whilst there is something to admire from NY Penn managing such high passenger volumes with limited resources, there is ultimately little to celebrate from a station that is dilapidated, a poor experience unbefitting of a world city and unable to cope with current let alone future demands.

Waterloo managed just shy of 100mn with 19 tracks before it underwent a small expansion project and now has 24 (ridership dipped during the reconstruction but is forecast to grow substantially). Gare du Nord is busier but has more platforms. Of course, London and Paris have several termini station in the central core which distribute significantly higher volumes overall as well as through-running routes. Beyond the improved visual aesthetics, these stations also tend to have wider platforms, concourses capable of handling larger volumes of people, as well as more access points to aid in distribution of passengers. It also helps to have modern rolling-stock with walk-through carriages and wide doors for quick alighting.

The two recurring problems facing commuter rail into New York are:
i) the lack of access points (just 10 tracks for LIRR, MNR and NJT) into Manhattan, and
ii) the lack of through running (the exception being Amtrak) which would drastically increase capacity by increasing platform utilisation.

From an outsider’s perspective, the likes of East Side Access and Penn South come across as bloated projects with limited resolution to resolving regional issues. Everywhere else is moving away from increasing terminal commuter rail capacity because it isn’t an effective use of resources.

East Side Access will shift most of the LIRR ridership away from Penn and some of the E train ridership. But for whatever reason the LIRR still intends on running full service to Penn despite ridership project to decrease by 60%. It also plans on gutting service to Atlantic Terminal in favor of a shuttle service. I don't think there is a high demand for through running , and you'll have a very hard time convincing the agencies that its worth while. NJT has billions in backlogged projects before it could even handle high capacity / frequent trains that would be required for through running.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

East Side Access will shift most of the LIRR ridership away from Penn and some of the E train ridership.

If will ship some, but not most of the LIRR traffic. It will allow more flexibility, which is what will open up Penn Station to Metro North. Both projects together will really change the face of commuting into New York City. But Penn Station will remain as crowded as ever, if not more so considering the shift in office space taking place on the west side, and around Penn Station in the future. This is where the expansions come in.



https://www.instagram.com/p/B8xCKCAo7dO/

[Busy Bee]

Moderately off-topic, but does anyone know when the MTA is going to get around to repainting the Hell Gate Bridge? It looks terrible. Unfortunately red just does not perform well in the sun, and as happened last time, will just start fading in a few years. Hopefully a repaint is planned as part of the MNRR East Side Access scheme and they'll make it 100% again. Some cosmetic masonry work also needs to be performed before this most gorgeous bridge starts to deteriorate further. Dark charcoal or even jet black would look pretty damn cool and a nice substitute for the name-appropriate red.

Originally Posted by NYguy

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by NYguy

If will ship some, but not most of the LIRR traffic. It will allow more flexibility, which is what will open up Penn Station to Metro North. Both projects together will really change the face of commuting into New York City. But Penn Station will remain as crowded as ever, if not more so considering the shift in office space taking place on the west side, and around Penn Station in the future. This is where the expansions come in.



https://www.instagram.com/p/B8xCKCAo7dO/

The LIRR expects 150,000+ to use ESA , so I would consider that a large shift and most of those are existing commuters who go to Penn or use the E train from Jamaica.