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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ Yeah I forgot about Miller - I actually have some friends (definitely creative class/stereotypical gentrifier types) who just moved there. But it's really the opposite of what I'm talking about. It's not super walkable, not very dense or urban. Even the sidewalks are pretty patchy. It just happens to lie within Gary city limits. Definitely different than, say, Elgin's West Side.
miller beach is definitely not urban.

it's "walkable" in the sense that some streets have sidewalks and you can walk your dog around the neighborhood, but other than the beach/lakefront itself, there's not a whole lot to actually walk to - a pizza place, a cafe, a mini mart, that's about it.

i was just pointing out that gary's beaches & dunes are even nicer than waukegan's, IMO.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I imagine if someone from Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, or Joliet was asked where they were from by a non-Chicagoan or non-Chicago region person, that someone would likely respond that they were from Chicago.
i think that's generally true.

you might also get a "chicagoland" or "just outside chicago" as well, depending on the person.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by westak View Post
Can you tell me what Lorain/Elyria or Painsville have in common with Akron? How is Akron comparable at all to those cities other than being close to Cleveland?

What ring cities have their own :

Zoo
Two State Universities
Hospital System
Children's Hospital
Art Museum
Syphony Orchestra
Airport
Etc....

Due to Sprawl the Akron area and Cleveland area are neighbors but it's not a sattelite or ring city, like a Waukegan to Chicago or Lorain to Cleveland.
I would say Akron is more like a Fort Worth to Cleveland’s Dallas, or a St. Paul to Cleveland’s Minneapolis. Obviously, Akron is much more historically and currently substantial of a city than the other Cleveland area cities you mentioned... I would never argue otherwise.

Yet, the region is not on the level of a Dallas or Minneapolis, and Akron is probably not large enough in its own right to be considered a smaller “twin”. Cleveland’s sprawl grew to connect with Akron, not the other way around, and to such an extent that the Akron area has come to function as “suburban Cleveland”.

Based on the initial thread topic description, Akron has pretty much become a ring city of Cleveland. It’s not a knock on Akron, so don’t take it that way. It’s much more of a statement on the vast developed area of the NE Ohio region, of which Cleveland is the undisputed capital.

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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i think that's generally true.

you might also get a "chicagoland" or "just outside chicago" as well, depending on the person.
Ah, that’s what I figured (in general). Similarly, regarding the above, someone from the Akron area might often respond that they are from the “Cleveland area” or “northeast Ohio” or even just Cleveland.

It’s interesting that when he played for Cleveland, LeBron James was often referred to the hometown boy or some reference was made to his hometown being Cleveland.

Yet, he is from Akron.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 2:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I would say Akron is more like a Fort Worth to Cleveland’s Dallas, or a St. Paul to Cleveland’s Minneapolis.
i'd say the cleveland/akron relationship is a lot closer to dallas/forth worth than it is to minneapolis/st.paul.

more than any other large paired US cities, minneapolis/st. paul most fully embody the "twin city" dynamic. neither one is a ring or satellite city for the other. they function much more as equalish dual nodes of one single continuous city.

for starters, they directly abut each other, sharing a 6 mile long municipal border.

their populations are fairly close; minneapolis 429K vs. st. paul 308K.

they were both incorporated very close in time. minneapolis 1867 vs. st. paul 1854.

the two downtown are only 8.5 miles apart, connected by an intra-city light rail line, not commuter rail.

they split major league sports. MLB, NFL, & NBA are in minneapolis. NHL & MLS are in st. paul. (notice how all the major sports teams are named "minnesota", never one city over the other).

the main art museums and convention center are in minneapolis, the main science and history museums are in st. paul.

minneapolis has the univeristy of minnesoata, st. paul is minnesota's st. capital.

and on and on.

they really do function more like one single city with two major downtown nodes than any other large US city pair that i can think of.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 30, 2020 at 2:21 AM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 2:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Pasadena also did somewhat of a shoestring annexation into the mountains north of it, to insure sources of water (many communities allowed themselves to be annexed by the city of LA to access LA's DWP water). Here's Pasadena's city limits; you can see two sections that snake up into the San Gabriel Mountains: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pa....1445155?hl=en
this is what columbus did and still continues to do to some extent, basically say ok you can access water, but you have to be annexed. meanwhile cleveland gave up their water rights for basically nothing and now its long surrounded by a bunch of crotchety minor fiefdom 'burbs all existing and duplicating services for no good reason. guess who the winners are here? that's right los angeles and columbus in ohio. the lesson is even in waterworld areas like the great lakes, water is always the key!
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 2:34 PM
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Cleveland-Akron seems more analogous to Detroit-Flint, except closer to each other.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 2:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i'd say the cleveland/akron relationship is a lot closer to dallas/forth worth than it is to minneapolis/st.paul.

more than any other large paired US cities, minneapolis/st. paul most fully embody the "twin city" dynamic. neither one is a ring or satellite city for the other. they function much more as equalish dual nodes of one single continuous city.

for starters, they directly abut each other, sharing a 6 mile long municipal border.

their populations are fairly close; minneapolis 429K vs. st. paul 308K.

they were both incorporated very close in time. minneapolis 1867 vs. st. paul 1854.

the two downtown are only 8.5 miles apart, connected by an intra-city light rail line, not commuter rail.

they split major league sports. MLB, NFL, & NBA are in minneapolis. NHL & MLS are in st. paul. (notice how all the major sports teams are named "minnesota", never one city over the other).

the main art museums and convention center are in minneapolis, the main science and history museums are in st. paul.

minneapolis has the univeristy of minnesoata, st. paul is minnesota's st. capital.

and on and on.

they really do function more like one single city with two major downtown nodes than any other large US city pair that i can think of.
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I have visited the twin cities a handful of times and found exactly you’re describing... functioning in many ways as a single city. My cousin, a Minneapolis native, refers to St. Paul as the “rougher twin brother” of the two. So close together and fully integrated, that traveling between the two just feels like going to a different neighborhood within the same city.

That’s definitely not the case with Dallas and Fort Worth, which like Cleveland and Akron, are connected by newer sprawl (DFW on a much greater level obviously), but still are 30+ miles from each other and maintain much more distinct individual identities and attributes and institutions. DFW really grew together rapidly, whereas it seems Cleveland expanded to include Akron within its orbit.

Whether or not Ft. Worth has become a ring city of Dallas is debatable, I guess, based on what parameters one wants to consider. I can see how it could be, but at the same time with nearly 1M in population in the city and over 2M with its bordering suburban counties (Parker, Wise, 1/2 of Denton)Fort Worth is a large American city in its own right. Akron, on the other hand, seems to have become part of “Greater Cleveland” via urban decline-induced suburban sprawl... and since you can’t sprawl into the lake, Cleveland’s sprawl fully encompassed locales to the east and west on the lakeshore and pushed south to connect and pull in the Akron area in the 1980s to present day.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Cleveland-Akron seems more analogous to Detroit-Flint, except closer to each other.
Maybe, I’m not too familiar with Detroit or Flint, or Michigan in general. Though I’m assuming that Akron is a much more substantial city than Flint is (or ever was).
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 3:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Maybe, I’m not too familiar with Detroit or Flint, or Michigan in general. Though I’m assuming that Akron is a much more substantial city than Flint is (or ever was).
I didn't realize Akron was that big. Flint topped out around 200k and Akron around 300k. Maybe Akron and Cleveland are more evenly weighted than Detroit vs Flint. But Flint was a fairly independent metro area until about 20 years ago, when Metro Detroit and Flint started to sprawl into each other.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Maybe, I’m not too familiar with Detroit or Flint, or Michigan in general. Though I’m assuming that Akron is a much more substantial city than Flint is (or ever was).
I agree, and the difference also being not only does Akron have its own institutions but it also has a Canton that it is closer related to than Cleveland. Also Northeast Ohio is very unique in that there is not a centrally dominated city, it is mostly a contiguous Region with 3 cities of size dominating their own territories. I lived in the Akron area for over forty years and the citizens there identify themselves from Akron and no other city. Northeast Ohio is more like the New England region (Boston, Providence, Manchester etc) but not like Dallas-Fort Worth or Minneapolis-St.Paul.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I would say Akron is more like a Fort Worth to Cleveland’s Dallas, or a St. Paul to Cleveland’s Minneapolis. Obviously, Akron is much more historically and currently substantial of a city than the other Cleveland area cities you mentioned... I would never argue otherwise.

Yet, the region is not on the level of a Dallas or Minneapolis, and Akron is probably not large enough in its own right to be considered a smaller “twin”. Cleveland’s sprawl grew to connect with Akron, not the other way around, and to such an extent that the Akron area has come to function as “suburban Cleveland”.

Based on the initial thread topic description, Akron has pretty much become a ring city of Cleveland. It’s not a knock on Akron, so don’t take it that way. It’s much more of a statement on the vast developed area of the NE Ohio region, of which Cleveland is the undisputed capital.



Ah, that’s what I figured (in general). Similarly, regarding the above, someone from the Akron area might often respond that they are from the “Cleveland area” or “northeast Ohio” or even just Cleveland.

It’s interesting that when he played for Cleveland, LeBron James was often referred to the hometown boy or some reference was made to his hometown being Cleveland.

Yet, he is from Akron.
Nobod(or very few people) from Akron...and I mean born in/or raised in Akron or the Akron area(south of the Turnpike) would say they are from Cleveland. Northeast Ohio, yes...but not Cleveland or "The Cleveland Area".

Concerning Lebron he's never claimed to be from Cleveland, that's been sportscasters or writers from outside the area. In fact here is story were Leborn makes that clear:

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/2020/07/lebron-in-2010-were-not-from-cleveland-were-from-akron.html#:~:text=CLEVELAND%2C%20Ohio%20%E2%80%93%20Ten%20years%20ago,his%20talents%20to%20South%20Beach.&text=%22And%20he%20said%2C%20'We,We're%20from%20Akron.

The other thing is I don't believe most Clevelanders look at Akron as being a part of Cleveland. Do they look at Akron as being a part of the region and a neighbor, sure. However I don't think most look at Akron as some sort extention of Cleveland.

Ultimately I can see how you as an outsider may see or look at Akron as ring city of Cleveland, I'm just trying to explain to you how it is here on the ground, at least in Akron.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by skysoar View Post
I agree, and the difference also being not only does Akron have its own institutions but it also has a Canton that it is closer related to than Cleveland. Also Northeast Ohio is very unique in that there is not a centrally dominated city, it is mostly a contiguous Region with 3 cities of size dominating their own territories. I lived in the Akron area for over forty years and the citizens there identify themselves from Akron and no other city. Northeast Ohio is more like the New England region (Boston, Providence, Manchester etc) but not like Dallas-Fort Worth or Minneapolis-St.Paul.
Yup, it's weird and I can certainly see how if your not from here just looking at how close the cities are one would think that they all opperate together but it just doesn't work that way. I've worked in Cleveland, Akron and the Canton area and the people from all three generally indentify independently of each other...Even Akron and Canton which essentially border each other.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by skysoar View Post
I lived in the Akron area for over forty years and the citizens there identify themselves from Akron and no other city. Northeast Ohio is more like the New England region (Boston, Providence, Manchester etc) but not like Dallas-Fort Worth or Minneapolis-St.Paul.
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I've worked in Cleveland, Akron and the Canton area and the people from all three generally indentify independently of each other...Even Akron and Canton which essentially border each other.
Yes, of course people from Akron identify with being from Akron to others within the NE Ohio region, as well as to others within the state and within the broader regional context.

But if they're talking to someone from Rhode Island or Florida or Oregon or Texas, and asked where they're from, people say "Akron, Ohio", and if met with any uncertainty or unfamiliarity, the follow up is possibly "Northeast Ohio" or "just south of Cleveland" or "it's near Cleveland" or "the Cleveland area".

The average person outside of Ohio and the general overall region has no clue where Akron is... they've likely heard the name, but don't associate it with any particular location. Cleveland is moderately relatable for the average person, and Akron is close enough and connected enough that "Cleveland" does indeed serve as proxy to respond to the majority of people who have zero clue about geography.

I used to witness it all the time in medical school and when training residents who were from the area going to school in NYC. Stow, OH (a northern Akron suburb) became just "northeast Ohio" and then when people were like "what's northeast Ohio?", it became just "Cleveland". Students who had attended Kent State went to school "near Cleveland".

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Originally Posted by westak View Post
Nobod(or very few people) from Akron...and I mean born in/or raised in Akron or the Akron area(south of the Turnpike) would say they are from Cleveland. Northeast Ohio, yes...but not Cleveland or "The Cleveland Area".

Concerning Lebron he's never claimed to be from Cleveland, that's been sportscasters or writers from outside the area. In fact here is story were Leborn makes that clear:

The other thing is I don't believe most Clevelanders look at Akron as being a part of Cleveland. Do they look at Akron as being a part of the region and a neighbor, sure. However I don't think most look at Akron as some sort extention of Cleveland.

Ultimately I can see how you as an outsider may see or look at Akron as ring city of Cleveland, I'm just trying to explain to you how it is here on the ground, at least in Akron.
I never said LeBron claimed he was from Cleveland. He is widely identified in the sports world as being from Cleveland though (false as it is)... the "hometown boy", "bringing a championship back to his hometown", "playing for his hometown team", etc. And that's because Akron is identified with Cleveland.

I don't believe Akron even has its own local TV channels anymore -- they're served by Cleveland's. Correct?

Again, I don't think Akron to Cleveland is an equal ring city situation to the examples of Waukegan or Aurora or Joliet to Chicago. I know that Akron is solidly its own city. And Cleveland obviously does not have anywhere near the pull on nearby cities, nor the instant national familiarity that Chicago has. So it's definitely not on that level... I said so initially.

I'm just saying that it is now valid to consider (at least for argument's sake) Akron as a ring city of Cleveland... not that Akron is "a part of" or an "extension" of Cleveland, per se. But Cleveland has indeed grown/sprawled to connect with and supersede Akron's full "independence" -- the Cleveland TV stations example is a prime indicator of that. And there's always been connection and outsized influence from Cleveland on the smaller city, Akron... for instance, small examples like the Cavs used to play in Richfield (smack dab at the halfway point between Cleveland and Akron), and 1970s and 80s Cleveland sprawl was pushing down 71 and 77 from Strongsville and Brecksville to Richfield and then to begin 1990s Cleveland McMansion sprawl pushing down further into Bath and surroundings closer to Akron. When bands on their summer tours play their "Cleveland" concerts, they play at Blossom... in an Akron suburb... and it's where the Cleveland Symphony built their summer performance amphitheater home.

Akron will always have its individual identity, but like it or not, Akron has taken on many of the attributes of being a spoke on the ring around the main hub. And for regional economic good health, it should (and will) continue to do so.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 7:39 PM
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^ guise -- if we didn't have the cuyahoga national park we wouldn't even be having a debate. the sprawl would have barreled and spread straight down to akron. instead, maybe there would still be things like all the nice tomato and farm greenhouses on the westside suburbs remaining, instead of the modern sprawl development.

that said, myself and i am sure everyone are certainly very glad the park was created for its own sake.

for those that don't know, the cuyahoga valley national park directly between cleveland and akron is one of america's newest national parks (it became a national recreation area in 1974 & was elevated to national park in 2000). it is the very major physical seperation between the two cities and sprawl from cleveland grew down around it, but also maybe more east and west than it might have.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
^ guise -- if we didn't have the cuyahoga national park we wouldn't even be having a debate. the sprawl would have barreled and spread straight down to akron. instead, maybe there would still be things like all the nice tomato and farm greenhouses on the westside suburbs remaining, instead of the modern sprawl development.

it is the very major physical seperation between the two cities and sprawl from cleveland grew down around it.
Exactly. I wasn't even going to bring up that aspect, so thank you for noting the reality.

And having nowhere to go to the north, and being blocked just to the south by the park, it only hastened further growth around the park along the 77 and 271/8 corridors south towards Akron.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 11:03 PM
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Exactly. I wasn't even going to bring up that aspect, so thank you for noting the reality.

And having nowhere to go to the north, and being blocked just to the south by the park, it only hastened further growth around the park along the 77 and 271/8 corridors south towards Akron.
Wanting a Metro to be a part of another Metro and that being a reality is two different things, ask the O.B.M[Office of Budget and Management. You talk about Cleveland sprawl, but what about Akron sprawl and influence. Akrons influence into Wayne County, Portage county and joining with Canton into Carroll and the Stark county area is much more greater than Clevelands influence into the Akron area. If Cleveland was centrally located in Northeast Ohio i could agree. I think most of you forget that Akron is not some small burg like Parma, or Lorain, cities that ring Cleveland. Akron is an old established city of about 200,000 , the size of a Birmingham, or a Rochester. Akron and Canton both have their own radio markets, they have independent T.V stations, no Major
broadcasting outlets, Major newspaper , the Akron Beacon Journal, which is a powerhouse in that region.l
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 11:49 PM
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^ I understand that you guys know far better about “on the ground” experience regarding Akron. I would never attempt to pretend that I’m some local expert... far from it. It just seems to increasingly fit the bill of a “ring city” (that definition is obviously up for interpretation just based on this discussion) of Cleveland, considering the distance, connection, and being in the “orbit”of the larger city.
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  #58  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 2:24 PM
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this is what columbus did and still continues to do to some extent, basically say ok you can access water, but you have to be annexed. meanwhile cleveland gave up their water rights for basically nothing and now its long surrounded by a bunch of crotchety minor fiefdom 'burbs all existing and duplicating services for no good reason. guess who the winners are here? that's right los angeles and columbus in ohio. the lesson is even in waterworld areas like the great lakes, water is always the key!
Yeah...

Los Angeles in the early 20th Century was very powerful in terms of water; this is why the San Fernando Valley, which originally was agricultural, allowed itself to be annexed by LA just for the water---with Burbank and San Fernando being the only independent municipalities in the SFV (I was never sure if Glendale is part of the SFV). Los Angeles built the LA Aqueduct, getting water from the Owens Valley in central California. But by the Great Depression, I believe, the MWD was created (Metropolitan Water District), which gets water from the Colorado River, and sells it wholesale to cities that contract with it, so by then, communities didn't have to rely on the City of LA anymore for water.

According to my city's (South Pasadena) website, its source of water is from: (1) groundwater pumped from wells in the Main San Gabriel Groundwater Basin, (2) surface water imported by Metropolitan Water District of Southern California (Metropolitan) from the Colorado River, and (3) groundwater from the City of Pasadena.

Whole books have been written about the (often dramatic) story/stories of the quest for water in Los Angeles. I don't doubt that other big cities in the US have equally interesting stories about getting water for their growing populations.
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  #59  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 6:51 PM
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Austin had Hyde Park which is now squarely in the middle of Central North Austin. It was a traditional streetcar suburb with a line running into UT and downtown. The streetcars ran from the 1890s to the 40s when all the tracks in the city were either ripped up or eventually paved over.

The northern edge of the UT campus is in the bottom left corner.

Big aerial:




https://austin.curbed.com/2017/9/18/...ars-light-rail

-


https://austin.curbed.com/2017/9/18/...ars-light-rail
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  #60  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 9:52 PM
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I'm not saying Akron isn't an important center on its own, but I would definitely argue that it is a ring city of Cleveland - just like Painesville and Lorain/Elyria, only larger. Akron isn't that much larger than Lorain/Elyria (198k vs 117k). No one would argue now that Lorain/Elyria and Painesville are not ring cities of Cleveland. They're the same distance away, older than Akron, and boomed economically at the same time (steel vs Akron's rubber). The biggest difference is they fully sprawled into Cleveland, while the park is in between Cleveland and Akron. Historically, Akron is more tied to Cleveland than the other ring cities. It was built as a stop on the Ohio-Erie Canal (hence all the Locks that have become the main entertainment district in downtown Akron - very cool area, btw), which linked the river to Cleveland.

Akron is more culturally connected to Canton than it is to Cleveland, being that they share an airport and are physically closer (though not anywhere near bordering eachother), but is not disconnected from Cleveland. We all share a media market and sports teams. Would Akron be an important center without its proximity and connection to Cleveland? Possibly. But I think it would be more like Mansfield than how it is now. The same argument goes for Cleveland - it probably would not be the size it is now without its connections to Akron.

Maybe I am not fully understanding a "ring city" (a city which grew independently, but it now culturally an economically tied to the main center city), but I think Akron fits the bill. Looking at NEO as a whole though, I think we are more analogous to the Ruhr, in that we are a multinodal region (Cleveland, Akron, Lorain/Elyria, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Painesville, Ashtabula) that are all economically, culturally, and (alot of times with sprawl) physically connected. Unlike the Ruhr though where Essen, Dortmond, and Duisburg are all similarly sized, Cleveland is the undisputed center of this region.
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