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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2020, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I would also add Windsor, ON, and Sarnia, ON, as Detroit satellites.
Windsor is more of a sister city than a satellite city as the two downtowns are directly across the river from each other, and both cities have their own metropolitan areas. To me a satellite city needs to be further away from the primary city.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2020, 7:29 PM
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Windsor is more of a sister city than a satellite city as the two downtowns are directly across the river from each other, and both cities have their own metropolitan areas. To me a satellite city needs to be further away from the primary city.
Lol, I'm wondering what kind of sinful border procedures you guys have to go through whenever you'd cross your common river.
In my country, crossing the borders to Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Italy or Spain takes nothing! Not even a second, because it's all the EU.
But over there in NA... There must still be an administration routine or procedure of sorts. That must be seriously annoying on a daily basis.
That is even nonsensical, quite obviously.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2020, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
all 4 of these cities started out as independent places; not subordinate to chicago in their early development in the 19th century. they are not "burbs" in the traditional sense.

but it is interesting to me that all of them seemed to form at roughly the same time and distance from the big alpha city in a near-perfect ring, and were then consequently consumed by sprawl.
Aurora, Joliet, and Elgin all started in the mid 1800s as river mill towns mostly independent from Chicago, but once the railroad reached those towns around 1900, they were able to establish major manufacturing industries that were appendages to Chicago's economy and its distribution networks. It's all right out of Nature's Metropolis.

Waukegan and Gary didn't have the river mill economy, but they did serve as trans-shipment points for lake shipping before the railroads arrived.

None of these places were commuter suburbs in the modern sense - the residents didn't participate in the broader Chicago economy, but their work product went to Chicago warehouses before being shipped across the nation. This relationship is pretty clear when you look at the second tier of satellites - North Chicago, West Chicago, Chicago Heights and East Chicago. These were not river or lake-shipping towns, so they didn't really exist until some industrialists decided they could do their manufacturing "out in the countryside" while still sending their product by rail back to Chicago for sales and distro.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2020, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Waukegan and Gary didn't have the river mill economy, but they did serve as trans-shipment points for lake shipping before the railroads arrived.
I didn't include Gary in my original list because its pedigree is a little bit different than the others. Gary, IN didn't exist as a thing until 1906 when US steel decided to build a MASSIVE steel mill at the very bottom of lake michigan, and an instant factory boomtown was simultaneously built next to it.

It went from a population of virtually zero in 1900 to a population of 100,000 by 1930. So it didn't really have those decades of independent 19th century early development that the others had.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Lol, I'm wondering what kind of sinful border procedures you guys have to go through whenever you'd cross your common river.
In my country, crossing the borders to Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Italy or Spain takes nothing! Not even a second, because it's all the EU.
But over there in NA... There must still be an administration routine or procedure of sorts. That must be seriously annoying on a daily basis.
That is even nonsensical, quite obviously.
In normal times, the procedure is similar to what you experience flying into the North America from overseas. During COVID times, you can't cross at all because the border has been closed for the past six months.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2020, 3:35 PM
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Americans likely won't be able to enter Canada (and vice-versa) till 2021. Except for commerce, and a few extreme exceptions, the countries have basically no on-the-ground access.
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2020, 5:01 PM
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Dayton's satellite cities are Troy, Xenia, and Springfield; and depending on who you ask, you could probably add Middletown and Piqua to that list too.

Cincinnati doesn't really have a lot of satellite cities other than Hamilton. Everything else is really a core city like Covington or a total sprawlburb like Mason that does have a 19th-century "downtown", but it's barely a blip on the map.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2020, 7:44 PM
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for st louis the true historical “ring“ cities would have to be like st. charles, florissant, cahokia, even ste genevieve and other 18th, or even 17th century (cahokia, illinois the canadien settlement not the mississippian civilization was founded in 1696) french colonial regional cities and settlements.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2020, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Trenton is “technically” not a part of the Philadelphia MSA or CSA, which is why I didn’t include it as a “ring city” of Philadelphia. Trenton is a part of the NYC CSA. Of course, we all know that’s BS, and Trenton is indeed a ring City of Philadelphia, but that’s why I didn’t include it.

Reading is a part of the Philadelphia CSA, so absolutely qualifies and acts as a Ring City to Philadelphia.

I would absolutely say Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton (Lehigh Valley) are indeed ring cities of Philadelphia, but again, they’re not a part of the Philadelphia MSA or CSA on paper, which is why I didn’t include them.

Atlantic City is 100% a ring city of Philadelphia. It grew up as a resort city for Philadelphia. Look up its history. Even to this day, the only commuter rail line into Atlantic City is from Philadelphia. Furthermore, Atlantic City is a part of the Philadelphia CSA.

Of course, I didn’t include the numerous smaller “Ring Cities” in the Philadelphia area like Media, West Chester, Doylestown, Ambler, Norristown, Phoenixville, Newark, Bristol, Burlington, Mount Holly, Vineland, Glassboro, etc. etc.
Yeah, I get your points. I guess I wasn’t going by CSA because I don’t think that’s what Steely’s intent is and isn’t describing in his initial post with his examples of Chicago ring cities that have become completely connected/engulfed by the major city’s sprawl. All of his examples are just that.

Atlantic City is nowhere near that in the case of Philadelphia. Nor is Reading, really (not yet, at least... it is connected via the 422 corridor, but not fully surrounded by the “Philly area” by any means). Similarly with Allentown/Lehigh a valley, though even less so. Trenton functions as far more of a “ring city” for Philadelphia than it does for NYC obviously. I just don’t think that CSA classifications necessarily fit for Steely’s example.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2020, 6:36 PM
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For Miami, I would think Hialeah, Coral Gables, and Miami Beach are the main ring cities within Dade County. Outside, maybe Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach have the same role?

For NYC, Newark and New Haven probably would fit the bill. Brooklyn too historically before it got pulled into the greater city.

Atlanta: Marietta for sure. There’s so many minor communities around the city that either were historically small towns or newer suburban developments.

LA: Santa Monica, Long Beach, Pasadena, Hollywood come immediately to mind.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2020, 6:55 PM
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Yeah, I get your points. I guess I wasn’t going by CSA because I don’t think that’s what Steely’s intent is and isn’t describing in his initial post with his examples of Chicago ring cities that have become completely connected/engulfed by the major city’s sprawl. All of his examples are just that.

Atlantic City is nowhere near that in the case of Philadelphia. Nor is Reading, really (not yet, at least... it is connected via the 422 corridor, but not fully surrounded by the “Philly area” by any means). Similarly with Allentown/Lehigh a valley, though even less so. Trenton functions as far more of a “ring city” for Philadelphia than it does for NYC obviously. I just don’t think that CSA classifications necessarily fit for Steely’s example.

yeah, places like AC weren't really what i had in mind when i created the thread, but i also didn't spell out any ground rules, leaving the topic open to a lot of interpretation.

by "historical ring cities", i meant small cities that formed independent from, and outside of, their alpha city's Urban Area (ie. not contiguous with it at the time), that then grew to some modest established size in the pre-war era (say, at least 25,000 people by 1940), and were then fully consumed by post-war sprawl into the alpha city's Urban Area over the past 8 decades.
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2020, 9:24 PM
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yeah, places like AC weren't really what i had in mind when i created the thread, but i also didn't spell out any ground rules, leaving the topic open to a lot of interpretation.

by "historical ring cities", i meant small cities that formed independent from, and outside of, their alpha city's Urban Area (ie. not contiguous with it at the time), that then grew to some modest established size in the pre-war era (say, at least 25,000 people by 1940), and were then fully consumed by post-war sprawl into the alpha city's Urban Area over the past 8 decades.
those ring cities around chicago had some sort of relationship at an economic tier more distant than a rail suburb but i think
still on a continuum. just like the crescent of french founded cities around st. louis. they formed a sort of regional unit smaller than a state, territory, or province.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
Dayton's satellite cities are Troy, Xenia, and Springfield; and depending on who you ask, you could probably add Middletown and Piqua to that list too.

Cincinnati doesn't really have a lot of satellite cities other than Hamilton. Everything else is really a core city like Covington or a total sprawlburb like Mason that does have a 19th-century "downtown", but it's barely a blip on the map.
Lebanon is a satellite city of Cincinnati's. 20,000 people, settled in 1802, contiguous with northern sprawl of Mason, Deerfield Twp., etc.

Also, I'd call Middletown a shared satellite city of Cincinnati and Dayton. It's in Cincy's MSA, and their public schools play in an athletic league with the Cincy northern suburban districts like Princeton, Sycamore, Lakota, etc.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
those ring cities around chicago had some sort of relationship at an economic tier more distant than a rail suburb but i think
still on a continuum. just like the crescent of french founded cities around st. louis. they formed a sort of regional unit smaller than a state, territory, or province.
Yeah, they were certainly part of Chicago's hinterland even if they were not really commuter suburbs at first. The industrial product was funneled thru Chicago and relied on Chicago-area suppliers, as I mentioned above. But these towns started to take on commuter-suburb status even before WW2. These towns tended to be the terminus of the commuter service offered by various railroads. The train service these towns had in 1930, even before sprawl happened, is not much different from the service they have today on Metra. The defunct interurban system (Chicago, Aurora & Elgin / North Shore) provided another layer of connection to Chicago and its first-ring suburbs that was perhaps more suited to working-class folks than an executive commuting to LaSalle Street.

There is another ring of towns a little further out like Ottawa, DeKalb or Kankakee that were also part of the hinterland, but with a slightly weaker connection.

One question I've wondered is, can these towns gentrify since they offer a more authentic urban experience in the suburbs? I've always thought Elgin would eventually gentrify, with access to Chicago and Tollway corridor jobs. But maybe their "urban-lite" status is the worst of both worlds? Waukegan and Gary are probably too far destroyed - which is a shame, since the lake is a huge amenity especially in Waukegan. The closest analogies I can think of are Lowell and Worcester, MA which have seen limited success with downtown redevelopment but their neighborhoods have not significantly turned over and average incomes remain unchanged.
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Last edited by ardecila; Sep 29, 2020 at 3:01 PM.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 2:40 PM
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Cleveland's would be Painesville (27 miles NE, founded 1800), Elyria (30 W, 1817), Lorain (30 W, 1807) and Akron (30 S, 1825) - apart from Lorain which borders Elyria, all are county seats of the neighboring counties, all about the same distance away, and all founded around the same time as Cleveland (1796). Now we are all connected by glorious sprawl too.
Akron is NOT a ring city of Cleveland.
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:17 PM
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Akron is NOT a ring city of Cleveland.
Local Akronite (Akroner?) pride feelings aside, I think Akron has most defintiely become a “ring city” of Cleveland... part of the whole Northeast Ohio sprawl, of which Cleveland is the hub from which it has spread to engulf Akron, et al.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
yeah, places like AC weren't really what i had in mind when i created the thread, but i also didn't spell out any ground rules, leaving the topic open to a lot of interpretation.

by "historical ring cities", i meant small cities that formed independent from, and outside of, their alpha city's Urban Area (ie. not contiguous with it at the time), that then grew to some modest established size in the pre-war era (say, at least 25,000 people by 1940), and were then fully consumed by post-war sprawl into the alpha city's Urban Area over the past 8 decades.
Right, it’s certainly a topic worthy of interpretation and comparison. And based on the places you listed, I just didn’t feel that this cities listed for Philly are analogous.

I imagine if someone from Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, or Joliet was asked where they were from by a non-Chicagoan or non-Chicago region person, that someone would likely respond that they were from Chicago.

But if someone from Atlantic City or Allentown or Reading was asked where they were from by a non-regional resident, that person would rarely, if ever, claim that they were from Philadelphia. Maybe saying that they’re about an hour outside of Philly if the questioner was unfamiliar.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:32 PM
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Waukegan and Gary are probably too far destroyed - which is a shame, since the lake is a huge amenity especially in Waukegan.
the lake is also a HUGE potential asset for Gary too.

Gary's Marquette Park it a true gem, escpecially with its early 20th century pavilions and other park structures restored.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6178...!7i7000!8i3500

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6179...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6193...7i16384!8i8192





and close access to indiana dunes national and state parks (probably the best natural areas in the entire chicagoland region) is also a huge plus.


but yeah, Gary is too far gone, and too heavy on real-deal heavy industrial (steel making, oil refining, etc.), for it to gentrify anytime soon.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:41 PM
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^ Yeah I forgot about Miller - I actually have some friends (definitely creative class/stereotypical gentrifier types) who just moved there. But it's really the opposite of what I'm talking about. It's not super walkable, not very dense or urban. Even the sidewalks are pretty patchy. It just happens to lie within Gary city limits. Definitely different than, say, Elgin's West Side.
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 3:47 PM
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Local Akronite (Akroner?) pride feelings aside, I think Akron has most defintiely become a “ring city” of Cleveland... part of the whole Northeast Ohio sprawl, of which Cleveland is the hub from which it has spread to engulf Akron, et al.
Can you tell me what Lorain/Elyria or Painsville have in common with Akron? How is Akron comparable at all to those cities other than being close to Cleveland?

What ring cities have their own :

Zoo
Two State Universities
Hospital System
Children's Hospital
Art Museum
Syphony Orchestra
Airport
Etc....

Due to Sprawl the Akron area and Cleveland area are neighbors but it's not a sattelite or ring city, like a Waukegan to Chicago or Lorain to Cleveland.

Last edited by westak; Sep 29, 2020 at 5:44 PM.
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