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  #1341  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2022, 5:42 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Also, I found it interesting that there is a street visible to the right where one doesn't exist today, which appears to be Fawson Street on the 1894 Atlas.


Source
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  #1342  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2022, 4:44 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Just to go down the Fawson Street rabbithole a little further... from someone123's post, I noticed the street (at the arrow) that I wasn't familiar with, and no longer exists:



It is in the 1894 atlas as above, but then I thought maybe Terminal Road replaced Fawson until I took a look at the 1965 map, which coincidentally is also the date of the photo, and both roadways are there:


Source

Looking further at the map, you can see that Fawson followed the same line as Harvey Street, which would place it alongside the former provincial building on Terminal Road that is now owned by Emera. So, I'll hazard a guess and offer that perhaps the lands were obtained by the province in order to construct that building and provide parking for its workers?

The google maps link below shows where I believe Fawson Street used to run.
https://goo.gl/maps/YJUJuNELiEPAyamk8

Any thoughts on that?
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  #1343  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2022, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Looking further at the map, you can see that Fawson followed the same line as Harvey Street, which would place it alongside the former provincial building on Terminal Road that is now owned by Emera. So, I'll hazard a guess and offer that perhaps the lands were obtained by the province in order to construct that building and provide parking for its workers?

The google maps link below shows where I believe Fawson Street used to run.
https://goo.gl/maps/YJUJuNELiEPAyamk8

Any thoughts on that?
5151 Terminal was not a provincial building. It was leased for mostly provincial offices but was privately owned - I want to say by Medjuck, but that may not be correct.
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  #1344  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2022, 8:03 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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5151 Terminal was not a provincial building. It was leased for mostly provincial offices but was privately owned - I want to say by Medjuck, but that may not be correct.
I believe you're correct - it was a Medjuck property.
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  #1345  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2022, 9:05 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Oops! My mistake. Thanks for the correction!

One of these days when I have several hours to kill and a big pot of coffee on the go, I'll have to go through city council minutes for the time period to see if there are any hints as to why and how this block was cleared and a city street eliminated and switched to private use. There has to be a story there.
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  #1346  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 12:01 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Another one is the square 50's style apartment do-over one block down from Government House. A restoration of the house with infill in behind would look great. There are so many potential sites here and it could all coalesce into a great neighbourhood.
You mean this one? https://goo.gl/maps/PGnXpvh1wKrzdeMx6


I always reasoned that the original facade would have been removed during the 'makeover', as it seems the only way it would have been able to work. Also I am wondering if there are many in the bricklaying trade who would be capable of reproducing what was there before. My impression is that masonry work with this level of detail is a lost art, but I have no idea of the state of the world in masonry trades these days.

That said, I'd like to see it.

From a previous post of yours, I believe this is the facade that was lost...


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  #1347  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 1:12 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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I remember going to a public hearing when this row of buildings was up for demolition, and Louis Lawen was there saying that in a perfect world, he'd like the final version of whatever is built here to involve a restoration of this middle facade.

I have no idea if that was really genuine--and given the likely expense and labour involved, I kind of doubt it will happen--but it would be great for the street, make for a real heritage-preservation landmark in the city, and earn a ton of community goodwill.

Last edited by Drybrain; Apr 25, 2022 at 1:50 PM.
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  #1348  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 1:45 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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I remember going to a public hearing when this row of buildings was up for demolition, and Louise Lawen was there saying that in a perfect world, he'd like the final version of whatever is built here to involve a restoration of this middle facade.

I have no idea if that was really genuine--and given the likely expense and labour involved, I kind of doubt it will happen--but it would be great for the street, make for a real heritage-preservation landmark in the city, and earn a ton of community goodwill.
I love the positivity, but qualifying it as "in a perfect world" equates to 'it will never happen'.

That said, it would thrill me beyond belief (I'm easily amused) if that facade was rebuilt during whatever development occurs on this site. I don't hold any real hopes of this happening, but I am open to being pleasantly surprised...
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  #1349  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 3:07 PM
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A good alternative would be to rebuild a historically accurate but simplified version of the facade (not an ersatz version of this elaborate facade with cheap materials etc.). But this is an example where the municipality should be willing to kick in some $$$. It could be in the form of tax rebates or density bonuses given in exchange for the public benefit.

When a developer says something is expensive typically they mean in the context of the profit margins of the particular development. Not in municipal budget terms or relative to public benefit. If you tie the cost of the restoration work to some other profit generator like extra units then the calculus changes.

I think people see the value in restoring major landmarks like the Citadel or North Park Armoury but the cost-benefit is likely just as good or better for some smaller sites chosen strategically yet they tend to fly under the radar.
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  #1350  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 4:31 PM
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In this overheated real estate market I don't think municipal tax dollars should be given to developers to create heritagey elements. If they are restoring something significant. sure, maybe, but if they are already gone, make replicating it a condition of municipal approval and let the developer pay for it.
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  #1351  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Interesting shot. There are pics of the 'Georgian House' on the HRM archives of 14 (old system) or 1246 (current system) Hollis from 1962 at the link, showing the driveway and what appears to be a carriage house/external building behind the house
This one is listed in the South Suburb inventory: https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...0114rc123v.pdf

Forman-Uniacke House, built 1826.

1203-1273 Hollis Street (with a picture of the parking lot) has the comment: "The site housed Grosvenor House/The Grosvenor Hotel, which acted as both a rooming house and a proper hotel, from c. 1895 until its demolition in the 1980s".

I'm surprised these survived up to the 80's but there are seemingly so few pictures around. There are not a lot of photos from the 80's and 90's online. I guess it is too recent to be considered historic, but it was before the digital photo era.
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  #1352  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 7:48 PM
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This one is listed in the South Suburb inventory: https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...0114rc123v.pdf

Forman-Uniacke House, built 1826.

1203-1273 Hollis Street (with a picture of the parking lot) has the comment: "The site housed Grosvenor House/The Grosvenor Hotel, which acted as both a rooming house and a proper hotel, from c. 1895 until its demolition in the 1980s".

I'm surprised these survived up to the 80's but there are seemingly so few pictures around. There are not a lot of photos from the 80's and 90's online. I guess it is too recent to be considered historic, but it was before the digital photo era.
Perhaps I misunderstood your post, someone123, but for clarity, 1246 Hollis, the Forman-Uniacke House (page 153 in the document you attached), still stands, now housing offices of Merit Insurance. I've only been inside the main floor reception area, but the home seems to be well maintained inside and out. It's a rarity: not only has the 196-year old building survived in much of its original state, but it is on an uncommonly large lot for an historic downtown property. (As the listing points out, the only blemish is that sitting on the southeast corner of the lot is a small concrete bunker of a building, garishly painted, housing a Persian take-out.)

The other lot you mentioned is directly across the street, occupied by a dusty parking lot, owned by Nova Scotia Power. I've searched for photos of the former Grosvenor House but haven't found any. I believe Old Dartmouth Mark is correct, this also was the location of the late, lamented Fawson Street, which I expect was removed circa 1980 when 5151 Terminal Road went up.

To Mark's point, Fawson was the most southerly east-west street between Lower Water and Hollis until Terminal Road went in, I suspect when Ocean Terminals and Halifax Station/Nova Scotia Hotel were built in the late 20s. With Terminal Road open, Fawson would have been fairly redundant. Mark's 1965 map seems to show the footprint of two small buildings between Fawson and Terminal. The 1945 city plan envisions the Hollis-Terminal-Lower Water-Fawson block as green space.
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  #1353  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 10:25 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Thanks for the info, S123 and ns_kid. I know I had been through that area in the 1980s and before, but just can't pull an image from the old memory banks. However...

Sometimes it amazes me how much material has been archived in this very thread. Lo and behold, the pic below posted by someone123 in 2018 showing Fawson Street just north of and parallel to Terminal Road (circa 1930s or 40s?):


Source

An aerial view, and lacking detail, but at least we can see layout and rough building shapes. Looks like the north side of Fawson was well populated with houses at the time. Lots of other gems to pick out of that photo as well.

Also, another one from NS archives - has "about 1940" written on the lower right of the photo mat, the archive says 1915. From the rough shapes of the cars on the roads and the fact that the Cornwallis statue is visible (and very young trees surround the park), I'm inclined to say early 1930s?


Source

Fawson Street in the middle of the zoomed pic, with the buildings in question along Hollis, although shrouded in trees...

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  #1354  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 10:32 PM
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The other lot you mentioned is directly across the street, occupied by a dusty parking lot, owned by Nova Scotia Power. I've searched for photos of the former Grosvenor House but haven't found any. I believe Old Dartmouth Mark is correct, this also was the location of the late, lamented Fawson Street, which I expect was removed circa 1980 when 5151 Terminal Road went up.
Yes, I did not mean to imply that these were the same site. They are 2 different sites. I'm not sure I've ever seen a street level picture of the Grosvenor site before it was a parking lot.
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  #1355  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2022, 10:34 PM
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Another mystery to me is the building just above the tanks in this shot. There is a substantial building or row of buildings along Harvey Street too.
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  #1356  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2022, 1:31 AM
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Another mystery to me is the building just above the tanks in this shot. There is a substantial building or row of buildings along Harvey Street too.
That building does stand out. I checked the 1960 city street renumbering map, and visible on the map is 1343/1345 Hollis, on the east side between Morris and Bishop. At first I thought this must be the old Halifax Hotel, but I believe that was in the 1400 block. A check of the heritage inventory document provides an answer. It says this was "the former Allied Merchants Seamen’s Club, also known as the Sea Gull Club" from the 40s to the 60s. It was demolished in 1966 to make way for a one-storey NSLC store. (That, I remember.) Apparently before that, the building housed Fraser Bros. Ltd. from 1917, though a quick search didn't turn up any information about that firm.

The NSLC was around only from 1966 to 1998 when it gave way to the Waterford apartments.

The top detail from the map shows the large footprint of the building.


Source: Nova Scotia Archives Map Collection: V6 240 Halifax

The bottom detail is the Fawson Street block, showing the footprint of the two buildings visible in the photograph. There's no hint about what these buildings are, but another map from circa 1930 of the Ocean Terminals development labels the whole block as Canadian government lands so a reasonable guess is that these are war-era structures. They certainly have an impermanent, dormitory vibe to them.

I was also struck the the sheer size of the two gas towers visible in the photo. They certainly towered over the surrounding neighbourhood. I might have been a little nervous to live in their shadow. After Nova Scotia Light and Power exited the gas business in 1952, the gas towers were replaced by a couple of oil storage tanks. Still imposing, but a little less so perhaps. (One even had a smiling Reddy Kilowatt to reassure the neighbours.)
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  #1357  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2022, 1:42 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
That building does stand out. I checked the 1960 city street renumbering map, and visible on the map is 1343/1345 Hollis, on the east side between Morris and Bishop. At first I thought this must be the old Halifax Hotel, but I believe that was in the 1400 block. A check of the heritage inventory document provides an answer. It says this was "the former Allied Merchants Seamen’s Club, also known as the Sea Gull Club" from the 40s to the 60s. It was demolished in 1966 to make way for a one-storey NSLC store. (That, I remember.) Apparently before that, the building housed Fraser Bros. Ltd. from 1917, though a quick search didn't turn up any information about that firm.

The NSLC was around only from 1966 to 1998 when it gave way to the Waterford apartments.

The top detail from the map shows the large footprint of the building.
Great stuff! That detail you provided led me to this pic, which I had seen before but not put into context. The sign says "Navy League Merchant Seamen's Club", and the building to the north is the one that was replaced by Flynn Flats, so this must be the one. This photo is from 1947.



Source.
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  #1358  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2022, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
That building does stand out. I checked the 1960 city street renumbering map, and visible on the map is 1343/1345 Hollis, on the east side between Morris and Bishop. At first I thought this must be the old Halifax Hotel, but I believe that was in the 1400 block. A check of the heritage inventory document provides an answer. It says this was "the former Allied Merchants Seamen’s Club, also known as the Sea Gull Club" from the 40s to the 60s. It was demolished in 1966 to make way for a one-storey NSLC store. (That, I remember.) Apparently before that, the building housed Fraser Bros. Ltd. from 1917, though a quick search didn't turn up any information about that firm.

The NSLC was around only from 1966 to 1998 when it gave way to the Waterford apartments.
Ages ago I found a pic of that now-defunct Hollis St. NSLC store online somewhere and saved it:



I remember hearing hints about it while it was active - there were 2 reasons for its existence apparently. Bars, hotels and restos downtown wanted a store to let them replenish their stock easily, which makes some sense. It was also apparently popular with the denizens of Province House, especially those from out of town who were living downtown when the House was in session. It did very little general retail business given its location and so they had a degree of cover while making their purchases. Of course it also made sales to those who you would encounter on the streets downtown who had drinking problems, and also to the executive class working DT who liked keeping a few bottles in their office. I remember going in there a few times and being the only customer. My recollection was that it was pretty dim inside too, nothing at all like their present-day stores, allowing for a degree of anonymity.
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  #1359  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2022, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Great stuff! That detail you provided led me to this pic, which I had seen before but not put into context. The sign says "Navy League Merchant Seamen's Club", and the building to the north is the one that was replaced by Flynn Flats, so this must be the one. This photo is from 1947.
Another good catch, Mark. The facade does match the footprint on the map. From the front it's not obvious how large that building was. I surmise it must have included short or long term accommodations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
I was also struck the the sheer size of the two gas towers visible in the photo. They certainly towered over the surrounding neighbourhood. I might have been a little nervous to live in their shadow. After Nova Scotia Light and Power exited the gas business in 1952, the gas towers were replaced by a couple of oil storage tanks. Still imposing, but a little less so perhaps. (One even had a smiling Reddy Kilowatt to reassure the neighbours.)
Here's a photo from the mid-60s of the oil tanks that replaced the gas holders on Lower Water Street (opposite the Water Street generating plant). That's the rear of the old Victoria Apartments at the corner of Hollis and Morris in the background.


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  #1360  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2022, 3:46 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
Ages ago I found a pic of that now-defunct Hollis St. NSLC store online somewhere and saved it:



I remember hearing hints about it while it was active - there were 2 reasons for its existence apparently. Bars, hotels and restos downtown wanted a store to let them replenish their stock easily, which makes some sense. It was also apparently popular with the denizens of Province House, especially those from out of town who were living downtown when the House was in session. It did very little general retail business given its location and so they had a degree of cover while making their purchases. Of course it also made sales to those who you would encounter on the streets downtown who had drinking problems, and also to the executive class working DT who liked keeping a few bottles in their office. I remember going in there a few times and being the only customer. My recollection was that it was pretty dim inside too, nothing at all like their present-day stores, allowing for a degree of anonymity.
Wow... I don't recall ever seeing that store down there, but I do remember that in the 1980s that part of town was getting pretty run down and had a reputation of being a place full of prostitutes, drugs and such, so it wasn't exactly a place where I would have gone for a walk to have a look around.

That photo really illustrates how much NSLC outlets have changed. This predates me, but I was told that in the early 1970s and before, you'd go to the NSLC and there would be a counter across with a divider of some sort where you'd tell the clerk what you wanted, they would go back into the store and retrieve it for you. No brightly lit stores with shelves displaying product where you could browse and decide what you want to buy - you had to know what you wanted before you went in there.

This store looks like it must have been set up for that purpose. No windows, so 'innocent onlookers' couldn't look inside and see the bottles of the 'devil's elixer', and embarrassed purchasers could just pull their collars up while they are entering and exiting just in case they were spotted by a colleague or fellow churchgoer (who were probably also on their way into the store to pick up booze).

Anyhow, I always get a kick out of seeing a pic of a building that I should remember seeing while driving by, but don't really recall it ever having existed, like it was hiding in plain sight...
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