PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[DeltaNerd]

Next I want to see Tioga and Erie-Torresdale change. Also the BSL north of Spring Garden lacks so much development.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

There’s definitely wealth in the Philly region and even in Center City. It would be absurd to think that they can dine at all of the fancy restaurants but can’t afford to shop at Burberry lol.

Exactly right. One of the most under-reported trends about Philly right now is that it's attracting/growing high-income households at a healthy clip, even during the tumultuous pandemic period.

The 2021 ACS Census data on incomes shows that the city proper gained 15,000 households earning over $150K since 2019 (in raw numbers, from ~66,907 households to ~82,709--that's 23% growth in two years!)

I don't believe any dearth of retail offerings is from a lack of purchasing power (and certainly not for a lack of growth in purchasing power). If anything, I think Philadelphians have a tendency towards being more experience-driven than material good-driven people, and that's really reflected in the culture of the city (and the copious number of great restaurants). And that's one of the things that makes the city unique.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Next I want to see Tioga and Erie-Torresdale change. Also the BSL north of Spring Garden lacks so much development.

The BSL outside outside of center city lacks development

[TempleGuy1000]

Philly waterfront to transform as Festival Pier development begins

Lots of articles about yesterday's groundbreaking ceremony

The Festival Pier development has officially begun.

What's happening: Wednesday marked the groundbreaking for the 9-acre Riverview development that will bring housing, retail and a public park to the Delaware River waterfront in Northern Liberties.

Why it matters: The development of the pier, the second-largest publicly owned piece of land on the waterfront, will effectively create a new neighborhood in the city, drawing more residents and visitors to the area.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

I don't believe any dearth of retail offerings is from a lack of purchasing power (and certainly not for a lack of growth in purchasing power). If anything, I think Philadelphians have a tendency towards being more experience-driven than material good-driven people, and that's really reflected in the culture of the city (and the copious number of great restaurants). And that's one of the things that makes the city unique.

Other people have said this as well. I suppose it’s possible to some degree and it’s a nice sentiment but at the end of the day people are people. It’s not like you get to KOP and all of the sudden people get flashy and materialistic. There’s new people moving into the city from all over, not to mention visitors from the burbs, region and beyond.

KOP is more or less considered the Philly Metro. I think it’s somewhat analogous to Georgetown shopping. There’s a huge amount of wealth in the beltway and you’d think Georgetown would be lined with Pradas and Diors given it’s the premier neighborhood of DC but much of the retail is on the same level as Rittenhouse. A lot of DC Metro’s luxury retail is spread out between Tyson’s Corner and elsewhere.

I’ve read a few articles on this subject and most brokers and experts keep saying KOP is the primary reason keeping Walnut back. So I’m inclined to go with them.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

Exactly right. One of the most under-reported trends about Philly right now is that it's attracting/growing high-income households at a healthy clip, even during the tumultuous pandemic period.

The 2021 ACS Census data on incomes shows that the city proper gained 15,000 households earning over $150K since 2019 (in raw numbers, from ~66,907 households to ~82,709--that's 23% growth in two years!)

Incomes are growing all over the city. That maligned Inqy story about rising incomes = displacement overlooked juicy tidbits like household incomes increasing in Fairhill (19133) and Port Richmond/Kensington (19134) by almost 50% in a 5 year period.

That in huge swaths of the city that the number of people living in poverty dropped by THOUSANDS of people per zipcode and that even in places where the number of people living in poverty went up, the PERCENTAGE of people living in poverty actually went down.

Now that we're through the *everyone is leaving for the suburbs due to *crime* or *pandemic** we can get back to normal and acknowledge that quite the opposite is actually true.

I say bring it on.

That being said, Walnut Street is no Fifth Avenue and being that it is not a marquee national shopping strip any retailer would expect an output here to make a profit, especially in the current environment.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Incomes are growing all over the city. That maligned Inqy story about rising incomes = displacement overlooked juicy tidbits like household incomes increasing in Fairhill (19133) and Port Richmond/Kensington (19134) by almost 50% in a 5 year period.

That in huge swaths of the city that the number of people living in poverty dropped by THOUSANDS of people per zipcode and that even in places where the number of people living in poverty went up, the PERCENTAGE of people living in poverty actually went down.

Now that we're through the *everyone is leaving for the suburbs due to *crime* or *pandemic** we can get back to normal and acknowledge that quite the opposite is actually true.

I say bring it on.

That being said, Walnut Street is no Fifth Avenue and being that it is not a marquee national shopping strip any retailer would expect an output here to make a profit, especially in the current environment.

Agreed. And I should add the caveat that I don’t think Walnut has the capacity to be a Fifth Avenue or even Newbury St anytime soon either, but I think if landlords and the Rittenhouse Row people got their act together a bit more, then could it probabllly attract and retain at least a few high end retailers like Burberry.

I think what Chimp said earlier was really smart. High end retailers aren’t necessarily looking to be pulling the cash register every 30 seconds. It’s more about having a presence and building a brand. Again, I think if Walnut landlords actually tried attracting quality retailers instead of trying to price them out, it could go a long way in terms of building better momentum.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I agree, it's mind boggling to me....in a good way.


And wow, that is quite the change. I'm going to have to head over there just to feel the impact:


(Credit: https://phillyyimby.com)

Glad to see quick progress.

Overall a great project, but why must the windows be so cheap?... Window guards would have added a classy touch too.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

You wouldn’t know from walking on the street. Which is why the Gallery is such a problem.

Wish they had concentrated on the towers
I think they'd be better off
I believe they paid to have the structure put in to support towers above


Fashion District -East Market 2 by , on Flickr

[summersm343]

DC now has City Center DC which has some really nice, upscale retail. Philadelphia's like the reverse of Boston. Boston basically has all of it's upscale shopping Downtown (Back Bay) and Philadelphia basically has all of it's upscale shopping in the suburbs in King of Prussia. However...

I think the solution now for Philadelphia is:

1. Continue to build up, grow, get wealthier and improve it's image.

2. Create a luxury retail district. The options are to either:
-From 19th to 21st on Walnut Street, get a "Luxury Row at Rittenhouse Square" marketing campaign together with a website, get the city, retail brokers, landlords, etc. on board, and redo Walnut Street along this stretch as a luxury retail stretch.
-Build a new building/complex similar to City Center DC. This could be built somewhere in Schuylkill Yards or the Powelton Yards cap.

Philadelphia is a large enough region to support luxury retail in KOP AND Downtown. No excuses. If we want it, we can make it happen. DC has Tyson's Corner and City Center DC.

[allovertown]

There is way too much talk about the dearth of high end retail in Philly on this site, a non-problem that affects virtually no one.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

DC now has City Center DC which has some really nice, upscale retail. Philadelphia's like the reverse of Boston. Boston basically has all of it's upscale shopping Downtown (Back Bay) and Philadelphia basically has all of it's upscale shopping in the suburbs in King of Prussia. However...

I think the solution now for Philadelphia is:

1. Continue to build up, grow, get wealthier and improve it's image.

2. Create a luxury retail district. The options are to either:
-From 19th to 21st on Walnut Street, get a "Luxury Row at Rittenhouse Square" marketing campaign together with a website, get the city, retail brokers, landlords, etc. on board, and redo Walnut Street along this stretch as a luxury retail stretch.
-Build a new building/complex similar to City Center DC. This could be built somewhere in Schuylkill Yards or the Powelton Yards cap.

Philadelphia is a large enough region to support luxury retail in KOP AND Downtown. No excuses. If we want it, we can make it happen. DC has Tyson's Corner and City Center DC.

Agree all the way! I get the feeling that a lot of the landlords between 19th to 22nd have owned those properties forever and may not have the means, know how or desire to refurbish them for new retail. There’s been a few like the Bang & Olufsen brownstone and the boutique shops on the NW corner of 20th and Walnut but other than that there isn’t much creativity in terms of creating new spaces. But yeah I think it’d be a great idea for maybe Rittenhouse Row to help create a collaborative vision to transform that stretch into a luxury boutique row.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by allovertown

There is way too much talk about the dearth of high end retail in Philly on this site, a non-problem that affects virtually no one.

People also tend to overlook one of the biggest aspects: international tourism has long been the driver for ultra-luxury shopping. In which case, Philly has comparably little. I agree though. I don't know why we talk about luxury stores. If we are going to talk about retail, we should be having a conversation on why the commercial retail is so bad along many of the city's corridors outside of center city. It kills me how little progress over the last ten years has been made on so many commercial corridors. I can't really think of many beyond Frankford Ave. that I would say really got a big upgrade. It kills me the trianglur lot at the corner of Washington Ave. and East Passyunk is still empty. Such ugly blight.

Really visiting other cities, the #1 thing that often crosses my mind is how unhealthy so many of Philly's commercial corridors are.

[chimpskibot]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

People also tend to overlook one of the biggest aspects: international tourism has long been the driver for ultra-luxury shopping. In which case, Philly has comparably little. I agree though. I don't know why we talk about luxury stores. If we are going to talk about retail, we should be having a conversation on why the commercial retail is so bad along many of the city's corridors outside of center city. It kills me how little progress over the last ten years has been made on so many commercial corridors. I can't really think of many beyond Frankford Ave. that I would say really got a big upgrade. It kills me the trianglur lot at the corner of Washington Ave. and East Passyunk is still empty. Such ugly blight.

Really visiting other cities, the #1 thing that often crosses my mind is how unhealthy so many of Philly's commercial corridors are.

Huh??? I would say CC has probably the worst commercial offerings out of the city in terms of general momentum and vision. It is so incoherent and truly a hodgepodge of whatever. E.passyunk, Main Street, Germantown Ave (chestnut hill), Frankford Ave, Baltimore Ave, 4th street (QV) are all much better curated and continually have low or no vacancy with stores that are not fast-fashion/cheap foodstuffs/ or chains. I agree with Skyhigh there needs to be a master plan for many parts of center city. Slap shot commercial deals and neighborhood handwringing isn’t gonna change the retail landscape which is arguably the future of CC.

I think to truly be successful the CC business district should purchase the online shopping data of CC residents and target those brands for expansion into the city. Anecdotally, when I moonlighted at a ups, fedex, amazon pickup location a brand a lot of women in the city love is Reformation, but the closest place to see their clothes is a small booth on Nordstrom at KOP mall. If LuluLemon can have two locations in the city, a brand like reformation can have at least one.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by chimpskibot

Huh??? I would say CC has probably the worst commercial offerings out of the city in terms of general momentum and vision. It is so incoherent and truly a hodgepodge of whatever. E.passyunk, Main Street, Germantown Ave (chestnut hill), Frankford Ave, Baltimore Ave, 4th street (QV)
,etc are all much better curated and continually have low or no vacancy with stores that are not fast-fashion/cheap foodstuffs/ or chains. I agree with Skyhigh there needs to be a master plan for many parts of center city. Slap shot commercial deals and neighborhood handwringing isn’t gonna change the retail landscape which is arguably the future of CC.

No vacancies? Where? and how is Walnut, Chestnut, and Market disjointed? Germantown Ave., through the dense parts of the city, is a dump. Baltimore Ave. has interesting restaurants on some blocks and some random things, but 52nd street is under siege from crime and other negative factors and is worse off than it was. 4th Street has been hanging on as South St tries to figure out what it is in 2022. I live feet from East Passyunk. It's "healthy" by Philly standards but lacks very basic things and has vacancies on every block. Let's not even start to talk about Point Breeze, Lancaster, Ridge, Cecil B and other avenues that are not functioning corridors. As someone who has lived in a bunch of neighborhoods, to say "CC has probably the worst commercial offerings out of the city in terms of general momentum and vision" imo is just not true vs. the rest of the city

[Mtphilly]

Also, it’s not about whether we actually have those high-end stores, of course most residents won’t shop there. The issue is more the image it sends visitors, workers etc. when people see those stores in Center City. It makes people think it’s a place worth investing in, makes visitors think it’s safe etc. There are many reasons why it’s important for a city to have a high end retail corridor.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Mtphilly

Also, it’s not about whether we actually have those high-end stores, of course most residents won’t shop there. The issue is more the image it sends visitors, workers etc. when people see those stores in Center City. It makes people think it’s a place worth investing in, makes visitors think it’s safe etc. There are many reasons why it’s important for a city to have a high end retail corridor.

I had visitors from Canada last month. One of the first things they wanted to do was go shopping on Walnut Street. I don't quite get it myself as they surely have the same stores but there is something to the "big city shopping district" attraction for tourists/visitors.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I had visitors from Canada last month. One of the first things they wanted to do was go shopping on Walnut Street. I don't quite get it myself as they surely have the same stores but there is something to the "big city shopping district" attraction for tourists/visitors.

I also want to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Center City can't have more and shouldn't have more. It absolutely can. It's just in a relative sense, there are many other corridors outside of downtown that are functioning at a lower %

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I live feet from East Passyunk. It's "healthy" by Philly standards but lacks very basic things and has vacancies on every block.

While I agree with the sentiment that worrying about high end CC retail is a bizarre distraction, lamenting Passyunk Avenue is bizarre. I can't think of a single vacancy on Passyunk Avenue that's not the direct result of,um, irrational property owners. And what reasonable need is not met by Passyunk Avenue? Our long regional nightmare of not having a 90s themed music/variety store is now over, after all.

[chimpskibot]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

No vacancies? Where? and how is Walnut, Chestnut, and Market disjointed? Germantown Ave., through the dense parts of the city, is a dump. Baltimore Ave. has interesting restaurants on some blocks and some random things, but 52nd street is under siege from crime and other negative factors and is worse off than it was. 4th Street has been hanging on as South St tries to figure out what it is in 2022. I live feet from East Passyunk. It's "healthy" by Philly standards but lacks very basic things and has vacancies on every block. Let's not even start to talk about Point Breeze, Lancaster, Ridge, Cecil B and other avenues that are not functioning corridors. As someone who has lived in a bunch of neighborhoods, to say "CC has probably the worst commercial offerings out of the city in terms of general momentum and vision" imo is just not true vs. the rest of the city

I think you are grossly misrepresenting what I am saying to prove a point. The facts still remain each commercial corridor I mentioned are extremely healthy by national standards and have many retail offerings for their community.

Walnut is not only blighted by empty storefronts, but empty lots and parking lots. The same is true for Chestnut and Market. This doesn't need to be further analyzed. Sure the other corridors have parking lots or gas stations, but they are not the marquee destination for the city and cater to their neighborhoods needs. Again No one with the means to open a shop in Rittenhouse or CC view it like any other highstreet and this is why; it has an image problem.

Also we shouldn't miss the forest from the trees, why in the world would you compare what should be the best commercially performing area in the city to some of the poorest neighborhoods? All of the commercial corridors I listed have similar median incomes if not higher than CC. Of course Cecil B moore, Germantown Ave (North Section) and PB/Grays Ferry Ave will be worse performing than CC they are much poorer.

Lastly, 4th street is extremely healthy, Yowie is expanding on to south st with a second location and turnkey boutique hotel/coworking space. Philly Vintage Bazaar opened last year and Moore Vintage formerly of the BOK building just opened a store which specializes in Vintage High end clothes (Nothing under $200). This doesn't sound like an area "holding on". The same can be said for Baltimore Ave and E.Passyunk (where I live as well)

This is all to say. CC can and should be doing better and making excuses for why it is failing is in no residents best interest. Especially if we want to expand our tax receipts, livability, national/international appeal and create more jobs.