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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Per Wiki, most of Iowa's growth is Des Moines metro (100K per Wiki) and Iowa City metro, so the rest of the state is not growing and may be shrinking like downstate IL.
but that's the whole point.

iowa has a major center to base growth around, downstate IL does not.

and even then, out in the rural counties, IA still had more growing counties than downstate IL had.

even the metro east had negative overall growth last decade.

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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Albany was a Top 10 U.S. city from around the 1810 through the 1850 Census. It had a lot more going on than state capital.
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yeah, the Erie Canal made Albany into a large population center. Pretty much every large city in New York State grew to the size it did because of the Erie Canal, and they're all either located along the route of the canal or on the Hudson River.
From page 1 guys:

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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
Albany would not have been nowhere near its size if it wasn't the capital. It would've been a relatively tiny town otherwise, similar to other Hudson river towns.
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
That's not likely to be true. European settlement started in the Albany area in the early 1600s, and was one of the most important (and among the largest) cities in colonial and post-revolution America up to the 1850s, being a major transportation, manufacturing, and trade center. It became the capital because it was an important city at the time... not the other way around.

The region grew because of the Erie Canal and because it was THE major railroad center of the day, and became a manufacturing center as well... not because it was the state capital.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
but that's the whole point.

iowa has a major center to base growth around, downstate IL does not.

and even then, out in the rural counties, IA still had more growing counties than downstate IL had.

even the metro east had negative overall growth last decade.

But if we think about it, not long ago, Des Moines and Peoria were virtually the same size. They could have managed to become attractive.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
That's not likely to be true. European settlement started in the Albany area in the early 1600s, and was one of the most important (and among the largest) cities in colonial and post-revolution America up to the 1850s, being a major transportation, manufacturing, and trade center. It became the capital because it was an important city at the time... not the other way around.

The region grew because of the Erie Canal and because it was THE major railroad center of the day, and became a manufacturing center as well... not because it was the state capital.
I think this is slightly off. Albany became the capital before the canal was conceived. The capital was moved there after the British burned down Kingston, which was the first state capital. Albany was a colonial era fort for both the Dutch and English, so its strategic defense qualities were probably the determining factor in choosing it to be the permanent NY capital.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
But if we think about it, not long ago, Des Moines and Peoria were virtually the same size. They could have managed to become attractive.
and it would have been A LOT easier for Peoria to do so had it been gifted an anchor institution like the state capital and/or flagship university ages ago like des moines was.

which goes back to my original point: had IL consciously clustered these things in a single central IL city, the result would've likely been greater than the sum of its parts.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 21, 2022 at 10:01 PM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
Looking at NYS experience, it would not have changed much.
Whenever you have such lopsided concentrations of population like IL and NYS, there are bound to be serious governance issues. Its truly the tyranny of the majority.
Without having read further past this comment, this strikes me as the most prescient comparison possible with respect to the similarities of their in-state population distributions. It isn’t that Illinois lacks other major urban centers that New York has, it is just that Illinois is about 200 years behind New York in its development.

After all:

NYC > Chicago

Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, Utica/Rome, Niagara Falls
> Peoria, Bloomington/Normal, Champaign/Urbana, Decatur, Springfield, Rockfield

Elmira, Binghamton, Ithica, Watertown, Saratoga Springs, Plattsburgh
> Moline, Danville, Kankakee, Galesburg, Mt. Vernon, Peru, Effingham

This is simply a function of time.

St. Louis’s suburbs are an interesting case, though, that NYS lacks.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
This sounds like an advantageous change. The Midwest has more cities than it needs, and the limited in-migration has too many places to choose from. I agree about the promise of a capital + anchor university combo. A 1m metro would have decent air service. The other locations could still be county seats.
I missed this post earlier.

exactly, to the bolded.

i'm not proposing that places like bloomington or decator wouldn't exist at all, just that in a better world for downstate IL, they would be smaller county seat cities, more in the 15 - 20K people range, and a single city (i propose Peoria) would soak up the lion's share of urban development in the region with the trifecta of port/state capital/flagship university leading it to becoming a bona fide "second city" for the state of IL.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2022, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I missed this post earlier.

exactly, to the bolded.

i'm not proposing that places like bloomington or decator wouldn't exist at all, just that in a better world for downstate IL, they would be smaller county seat cities, more in the 15 - 20K people range, and a single city (i propose Peoria) would soak up the lion's share of urban development in the region with the trifecta of port/state capital/flagship university leading it to becoming a bona fide "second city" for the state of IL.
Thinking about it, this arrangement of several similar-sized, independent cities in Southern Illinois is not a very common phenomenon worldwide. And it indeed usually harms the whole region, preventing the formation of a centre big enough to become attractive. The most famous case is probably the Ruhr Valley.

That made me think of a post of mine of 2016, back in SSC, about two collections of cities in Rio Grande do Sul and São Paulo states:





Note the areas are densely populated: 389,000 inh. and 605,000 inh respectively. In the first case (Rio Grande do Sul), the four cities range from 62,000 to 78,000 inh. and in the second (São Paulo) we have five cities ranging from 52,000 inh. to 105,000 inh. What do they have in common? Very slow growth (São Paulo) and already negative (Rio Grande do Sul).

In Rio Grande do Sul, we have on the right Passo Fundo, almost out of the frame, with 200k inh., growing quite fast and being a prosperous agribusiness and health centre. And in São Paulo, the challenging is even bigger with the very wealthy and dinamic São José do Rio Preto (550k inh.) and Ribeirão Preto (800k inh.) growing 15% and 19%/decade. They definitely cast a shadow over the cities in the axis, not to mention the 30 million people São Paulo Macrometropolis less than 200 miles southwards.

I've never been to any those cities, but I have a soft spot for them. Maybe for being underdogs, for being located in a dense region, forming a cute network of cities. And I like the Ruhr as well.

In the US, I think southern Michigan is a bit like that, but cities are sparse and sizes are different.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I missed this post earlier.

exactly, to the bolded.

i'm not proposing that places like bloomington or decator wouldn't exist at all, just that in a better world for downstate IL, they would be smaller county seat cities, more in the 15 - 20K people range, and a single city (i propose Peoria) would soak up the lion's share of urban development in the region with the trifecta of port/state capital/flagship university leading it to becoming a bona fide "second city" for the state of IL.
Even if there was a critical mass second city in IL, I don't think it would be faring much better than the Chicago metro and I don't think IL would be doing better. Any smaller IL second city would face intense competition with other midsize cities in the midwest and would not necessarily win the corporate developments and relocations over Columbus or Indy or Minneapolis. Another prospect might be that some of the businesses in Chicago might relocate to the IL second metro, which might make Chicago's business climate worse. Chicago is such a dominant part of that part of the country from the standpoint of businesses, diversity, etc.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
For sake of argument, if Chicago were in fact partitioned into its own state, the remaining 90% of Illinois could be renamed East Iowa.
It it could be renames Down State.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 1:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
The state that really needs to consolidate cities is New Jersey. Small cities in a tiny densely populated state. Imo at the very least, Jersey city and Hudson county should merge, but this is off topic.
IIRC this almost happened, kinda sorta.

Jersey City formed in 1870 through the merger of the former Bergen City and Hudson City. Greenville followed suit three years later. But in 1869 all of the cities/towns in Hudson County east of the Hackensack River (all of Hudson County save Kearny, Harrison, and East Newark) were given a vote to join. However, the way that the vote worked is not only did a majority in each city/town have to vote in favor of consolidation, but the resulting city had to be contagious. Some of the northern cities voted in favor, but Hoboken and Union City did not, so there was no way for them to join.

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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
That's not likely to be true. European settlement started in the Albany area in the early 1600s, and was one of the most important (and among the largest) cities in colonial and post-revolution America up to the 1850s, being a major transportation, manufacturing, and trade center. It became the capital because it was an important city at the time... not the other way around.

The region grew because of the Erie Canal and because it was THE major railroad center of the day, and became a manufacturing center as well... not because it was the state capital.
In addition to everything else already said, it's also worth noting Schenectady and Troy are in the immediate area, not tied strongly to state government, and the largest cities aside from Albany in the Hudson Valley until you get down to Yonkers.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I think this is slightly off. Albany became the capital before the canal was conceived. The capital was moved there after the British burned down Kingston, which was the first state capital. Albany was a colonial era fort for both the Dutch and English, so its strategic defense qualities were probably the determining factor in choosing it to be the permanent NY capital.
Yeah, I wasn’t saying that. It was an important colonial city and became the capital well before the canal. The canal and railroads are what caused it to grow and become one of the major cities of the day, not simply because it was the capital, as it seemed to have been suggested.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 2:32 AM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post



In addition to everything else already said, it's also worth noting Schenectady and Troy are in the immediate area, not tied strongly to state government, and the largest cities aside from Albany in the Hudson Valley until you get down to Yonkers.
Exactly. I was really referring to the entire region around Albany including those cities, not just Albany proper. The idea that the Albany area would be nothing without the state capital is just historically inaccurate.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 2:56 AM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Any smaller IL second city would face intense competition with other midsize cities in the midwest and would not necessarily win the corporate developments and relocations over Columbus or Indy or Minneapolis.
Well obviously.

But a bigger Peoria bolstered by the addition of a state capital and flagship university would at least have more of a fighting chance than the current state of affairs of the 5 small triangle cities of central IL that don't have enough critical mass on their own.

And I wasn't really talking about this hypothetical city being Minneapolis or Indy sized, more in the Madison to Grand Rapids range.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Well obviously.

But a bigger Peoria bolstered by the addition of a state capital and flagship university would at least have more of a fighting chance than the current state of affairs of the 5 small triangle cities of central IL that don't have enough critical mass on their own.

And I wasn't really talking about this hypothetical city being Minneapolis or Indy sized, more in the Madison to Grand Rapids range.
I don't think IL state has not even fully marketed downstate as a potential tourist destination. Other than going to Springfield for Lincoln's memorabilia and perhaps the Quad cities for historic downtown, it seems that most Chicagoans go to Michigan or Door County Wisconsin for vacations, not downstate. I never made it downstate when I lived there but went to Wisconsin and Michigan many times.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I don't think IL state has not even fully marketed downstate as a potential tourist destination. Other than going to Springfield for Lincoln's memorabilia and perhaps the Quad cities for historic downtown, it seems that most Chicagoans go to Michigan or Door County Wisconsin for vacations, not downstate. I never made it downstate when I lived there but went to Wisconsin and Michigan many times.
I mean, is Downstate IL an obvious tourist draw? No doubt there are some interesting locales, but most of Downstate is just an endless cornfield for industrial farming.

Yes, deep southern IL has some elevation and forest, but that's a long way from Chicagoland, much further from very pretty scenery in MI and WI.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I don't think IL state has not even fully marketed downstate as a potential tourist destination. Other than going to Springfield for Lincoln's memorabilia and perhaps the Quad cities for historic downtown, it seems that most Chicagoans go to Michigan or Door County Wisconsin for vacations, not downstate. I never made it downstate when I lived there but went to Wisconsin and Michigan many times.
Because there is literally nothing in Illinois except for cornfields South of I-80.

There’s Shawnee National Forest and Lincoln history, and that’s it.
Maybe Route 66 towns.

There are no major natural or wildlife areas.

There are no sites of historical interest since the Civil War, and even the pre-Civil War era didn’t have much to offer.

Most of the cities and towns are copy/paste Midwestern or depressed rust belt.



If history had been different for Peoria, Quincy, Cairo, and Alton/Grafton/Cahokia/East St. Louis, things might have been different.


Even the official state historic sites which try not to be Chicago-centric are really grasping at straws. It’s mostly a giant list of “Lincoln farted here”, “other memorials to famous people” and “oldest mediocre state government buildings.”



Northwest Region
U.S. Grant Home
Old Market House
Washburne House
Apple River Fort
Albany Mounds
Campbell's Island Memorial
Black Hawk
Bishop Hill
Lincoln Monument — Lincoln

Northeast Region
Wild Bill Hickok Memorial
Grand Village of the Illinois
Norwegian Settlers Memorial
Governor Horner Memorial
Douglas Tomb
Hofmann Tower
Pullman Factory
Hotel Florence
Governor Small Memorial

Central Region
Carl Sandburg
Jubilee College
Metamora Courthouse— Lincoln
David Davis Mansion — Lincoln
Postville Courthouse — Lincoln
Mount Pulaski Courthouse — Lincoln
Bryant Cottage — Lincoln
Lincoln Log Cabin — Lincoln
Moore Home — Lincoln


Springfield Historic Sites

Lincoln's New Salem — Lincoln
Lincoln Tomb — Lincoln
Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Purple Heart Memorial
World War II Memorial
Korean War Memorial
Old State Capitol
Lincoln-Herndon Law Offices — Lincoln
Dana-Thomas House — Frank Lloyd Wright
Vachel Lindsay Home

Southwest Region
Vandalia State House
Lovejoy Memorial
Governor Coles Memorial
Lewis & Clark
Cahokia Mounds
Cahokia Courthouse
Jarrot Mansion
Martin-Boismenue House
Fort de Chartres
Fort Kaskaskia
Pierre Menard Home
Kaskaskia Bell Memorial
Governor Bond Memorial

Southeast Region
Halfway Tavern
Lincoln Trail Memorial — Lincoln
Shawneetown Bank
Crenshaw House/Hickory Hill
Rose Hotel
Buel House
Kincaid Mounds

Last edited by galleyfox; Sep 22, 2022 at 2:43 PM.
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 2:05 PM
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It is the same thing with New Brunswick (Canada), with three roughly equally sized cities (Fredericton, Moncton, Saint John) vs. adjacent Nova Scotia, where Halifax reigns supreme.

Quebec: dominated by Montreal, but with Quebec City pretty prominent
Ontario: dominated by Toronto, but with Ottawa pretty prominent, and a pile of middle-sized cities (Hamilton, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Windsor).
British Columbia: same as the above two, with Vancouver dominating, but with Victoria and an emerging Okanagan cluster
Alberta: two big cities in the limelight (Calgary, Edmonton), with not much else
Saskatoon: ditto (although with much smaller cities, Saskatoon, Regina)
Manitoba: one city to rule them all (Winnipeg)
Newfoundland: one dominant city (St. John's)
PEI: too small to count
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 2:54 PM
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I mean, is Downstate IL an obvious tourist draw? No doubt there are some interesting locales, but most of Downstate is just an endless cornfield for industrial farming.

Yes, deep southern IL has some elevation and forest, but that's a long way from Chicagoland, much further from very pretty scenery in MI and WI.
the galena area in the far NW corner of the state also has some pretty countryside thanks to the spillover of the "driftless area" from SW wisconisn.


source: https://elevation.maplogs.com/poi/6_...sa.567508.html


it's not spectacular or anything, but it's pretty enough in that "rolling english countryside" kinda fashion, and more importantly, different enough from the VAST unceasing flatness of the gigantic industrial-scale rectangle corn farms of central IL.

it is a place that chicagoans do regularly travel to for getaways. in fact, my mom and dad are out that way right now on a little getaway trip with some lifelong friends of theirs.

the historic charm of Galena itself also doesn't hurt. they've very successfully turned that place into a tourist trap using the "small historic town with antique stores, art galleries, and artisanal food shops" model.


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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2022, 2:54 PM
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Galena looks great in that shot. It isn't historic unless it also has artisanal olive oil shoppes.
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