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  #641  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2022, 4:11 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Windsor to London is basically empty, except for big, immaculate farms. No settlements of note.

Nothing like Bos-Wash. Not even anything like rural Michigan, on the other side of the border. Canada is pretty empty outside of a few metros. Even southern Ontario feels pretty sparse outside the GTA. There's a lot less of those random homes in nowheresville, like you get in the eastern half of the U.S.
From downtown Detroit you're about 10 miles from rural Ontario farmland. I'm not sure there's anything on the Michigan side that dips to that low level of density within 50 miles of downtown Detroit. The closest thing to that is probably quasi-rural Monroe County. But even there seems quite a bit more dense than the areas just outside of Windsor, where you can still see downtown Detroit from some vantage points.
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  #642  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2022, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
From downtown Detroit you're about 10 miles from rural Ontario farmland. I'm not sure there's anything on the Michigan side that dips to that low level of density within 50 miles of downtown Detroit. Even quasi-rural Monroe County seems quite a bit more dense.
Right. Anyone who has driven from Windsor-London or Sarnia-London notices the stark difference with the U.S. side. That portion of rural Canada is empty for U.S. Midwestern standards. It isn't until London where things start heating up, density- and congestion-wise.
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  #643  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2022, 4:25 PM
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^ 100% agreed.

In rough terms, Detroit is about half way in between Chicago and Toronto.

If you've ever driven the 8 hours from Chicago to Toronto, the 4 hour drive from Chicago to Detroit is quite different than the 4 hour drive from Detroit to Toronto.

Canada doesn't litter up its rural hinterlands with anywhere near as much crap as the US tends to do along its interstate corridors.
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  #644  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2022, 6:04 PM
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I was preparing such a post since the release of the first data of Canadian Census. As we're talking about their densities, here some data regarding Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, and comparing them with their US peers:

Toronto

------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 -------- 2001 ------ Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
TORONTO* -------- 5,246,184 --- 4,810,485 --- 4,087,252 -- 1,915 km² --- 2,739 inh./km² --- 9.1% -- 17.7%
LOS ANGELES* ---- 7,785,445 --- 7,650,536 --- 7,508,198 -- 2,461 km² --- 3,163 inh./km² --- 1.8% --- 1.9%
COOK COUNTY ----- 5,275,541 --- 5,194,675 --- 5,376,741 -- 2,447 km² --- 2,156 inh./km² --- 1.6% -- -3.4%
MIAMI-FT.LAUD.* - 4,624,381 --- 4,226,040 --- 3,862,744 -- 2,357 km² --- 1,962 inh./km² --- 9.4% --- 9.4%
BOSTON* --------- 3,457,094 --- 3,164,188 --- 3,071,003 -- 2,435 km² --- 1,420 inh./km² --- 9.3% --- 3.0%
DETROIT* -------- 2,542,281 --- 2,562,151 --- 2,867,451 -- 1,720 km² --- 1,478 inh./km² -- -0.8% - -10.6%
DALLAS COUNTY* -- 2,600,990 --- 2,357,605 --- 2,209,435 -- 2,062 km² --- 1,261 inh./km² -- 10.3% --- 6.7%
*Toronto, Mississauga, Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan, Brampton, Oakville
*Los Angeles and countless municipalities in LA County
*Miami-Dade (-5), Broward (-1)
*Boston and countless municipalities in MA
*Wayne, Oakland, Macomb core communities
*Dallas (-2)


------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 ------- 2001 ------- Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
TORONTO --------- 2,794,356 --- 2,615,060 --- 2,481,494 ---- 630 km² --- 4,434 inh./km² --- 6.9% --- 5.4%
CHICAGO* -------- 3,021,599 --- 2,962,926 --- 3,162,776 ---- 647 km² --- 4,670 inh./km² --- 2.0% -- -6.3%
PHILADELPHIA* --- 2,296,360 --- 2,201,510 --- 2,200,199 ---- 709 km² --- 3,241 inh./km² --- 4.3% --- 0.1%
BOSTON* --------- 1,955,679 --- 1,782,528 --- 1,727,200 ---- 634 km² --- 3,084 inh./km² --- 9.7% --- 3.2%
DETROIT* -------- 1,105,598 --- 1,162,077 --- 1,420,108 ---- 614 km² --- 1,801 inh./km² -- -4.9% - -18.2%
*Chicago, Evanston, Oak Park, Cicero, Berwyn
*Philadelphia, Delaware (+25), Montgomery (+7), Camden (+12)
*Boston and countless municipalities in MA
*Wayne core communities





Montreal

------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 -------- 2001 ------ Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
MONTREAL* ------- 3,027,827 --- 2,826,740 --- 2,645,268 -- 1,142 km² --- 2,651 inh./km² --- 7.1% --- 6.9%
SAN FRANCISCO* -- 3,536,139 --- 3,259,013 --- 3,164,122 -- 1,583 km² --- 2,234 inh./km² --- 8.5% --- 3.0%
MIAMI* ---------- 2,680,009 --- 2,477,994 --- 2,239,726 -- 1,310 km² --- 2,046 inh./km² --- 8.2% -- 10.6%
BOSTON* --------- 2,634,219 --- 2,414,263 --- 2,341,713 -- 1,489 km² --- 1,769 inh./km² --- 9.1% --- 3.1%
SAN DIEGO* ------ 2,213,504 --- 2,075,560 --- 1,909,810 -- 1,336 km² --- 1,657 inh./km² --- 6.6% --- 8.7%
CUYAHOGA COUNTY - 1,264,817 --- 1,280,122 --- 1,393,978 -- 1,184 km² --- 1,068 inh./km² -- -1.2% -- -8.2%
*Montréal, Laval, Longueuil, Thérèse-De Blainville (-1)
*Alameda (+16), Contra Costa (+15), Marin (+20), San Francisco, San Mateo (+24)
*Miami-Dade (-5)
*Boston and countless municipalities in MA
*San Diego core municipalities


------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 -------- 2001 ------ Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
MONTREAL -------- 2,004,265 --- 1,886,481 --- 1,812,723 ---- 499 km² --- 4,014 inh./km² --- 6.2% --- 4.1%
PHILADELPHIA* --- 1,882,328 --- 1,795,229 --- 1,787,586 ---- 462 km² --- 4,074 inh./km² --- 4.9% --- 0.4%
WASHINGTON* ----- 1,450,767 --- 1,277,768 --- 1,201,876 ---- 382 km² --- 3,802 inh./km² -- 13.5% --- 6.3%
BALTIMORE* -------- 991,049 --- 1,002,517 --- 1,020,376 ---- 470 km² --- 2,111 inh./km² -- -1.1% -- -1.8%
MINNEAPOLIS* ------ 801,045 ----- 719,183 ----- 708,980 ---- 411 km² --- 1,949 inh./km² -- 11.4% --- 1.4%
ATLANTA* ---------- 665,487 ----- 575,030 ----- 568,065 ---- 463 km² --- 1,423 inh./km² -- 15.7% --- 1.2%
TAMPA* ------------ 558,447 ----- 491,136 ----- 444,794 ---- 384 km² --- 1,453 inh./km² -- 13.7% -- 10.4%
*Philadelphia, Delaware (+14), Montgomery (+4)
*Washington and core municipalities in MD and VA
*Baltimore core
*Hennepin core municipalities
*Atlanta, Brookhaven, North Druid Hills, Druid Hills, North Decatur, Decatur, East Point
*Tampa, Egypt Lake-Leto, Town 'n' Country, University





Vancouver

------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 -------- 2001 ------ Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
VANCOUVER* ------ 1,200,226 --- 1,083,169 ----- 958,515 ---- 351 km² --- 3,424 inh./km² -- 10.8% -- 13.0%
SEATTLE* ---------- 946,987 ----- 797,287 ----- 746,574 ---- 339 km² --- 2,793 inh./km² -- 18.8% --- 6.8%
PORTLAND ---------- 652,503 ----- 583,810 ----- 529,122 ---- 346 km² --- 1,888 inh./km² -- 11.8% -- 10.3%
CLEVELAND* -------- 602,284 ----- 629,606 ----- 733,670 ---- 325 km² --- 1,851 inh./km² -- -4.3% - -14.2%
PITTSBURGH* ------- 578,406 ----- 575,966 ----- 621,131 ---- 320 km² --- 1,807 inh./km² --- 0.4% -- -7.3%
ATLANTA ----------- 498,715 ----- 427,042 ----- 418,371 ---- 351 km² --- 1,423 inh./km² -- 16.8% --- 2.1%
*Vancouver, Burnaby, New Westminster, Richmond
*Seattle, Shoreline, Lake Forest Park, Mercer Island, White Center, Boulevard Park, Burien, Tukwila, Bryn Mawr-Skyway
*Cuyahoga core municipalities
*Allegheny core municipalities


------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 -------- 2001 ------ Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
VANCOUVER* -------- 990,289 ----- 892,696 ----- 794,281 ---- 221 km² --- 4,477 inh./km² -- 10.9% -- 12.4%
MIAMI* ------------ 739,508 ----- 688,284 ----- 645,129 ---- 203 km² --- 3,643 inh./km² --- 7.4% --- 6.7%
SEATTLE ----------- 737,015 ----- 608,660 ----- 563,204 ---- 217 km² --- 3,395 inh./km² -- 21.1% --- 8.1%
BALTIMORE --------- 585,708 ----- 620,961 ----- 651,154 ---- 210 km² --- 2,794 inh./km² -- -5.7% -- -4.6%
CLEVELAND* -------- 424,996 ----- 450,196 ----- 535,565 ---- 218 km² --- 1,949 inh./km² -- -5.6% - -15.9%
CINCINNATI -------- 309,317 ----- 297,098 ----- 330,796 ---- 202 km² --- 1,534 inh./km² --- 4.1% - -10.2%
*Vancouver, Burnaby, New Westminster
*Miami-Dade core municipalities
*Cleveland, Bratenahl, Lakewood


------------------- 2021 -------- 2011 -------- 2001 ------ Area ------- Density ---------- Growth %
VANCOUVER --------- 662,248 ----- 603,502 ----- 545,671 ---- 115 km² --- 5,759 inh./km² --- 9.7% -- 10.6%
SAN FRANCISCO ----- 873,965 ----- 805,235 ----- 776,733 ---- 122 km² --- 7,193 inh./km² --- 8.5% --- 3.7%
BOSTON ------------ 676,216 ----- 617,779 ----- 590,355 ---- 125 km² --- 5,401 inh./km² --- 9.5% --- 4.6%
MIAMI* ------------ 533,851 ----- 494,153 ----- 456,944 ---- 115 km² --- 4,654 inh./km² --- 8.0% --- 8.1%
INDIANAPOLIS* ----- 153,549 ----- 142,516 ----- 166,651 ---- 109 km² --- 1,413 inh./km² --- 7.7% - -14.5%
*Miami, Miami Beach, Fisher Island, North Bay Village
*Indianapolis Center




In short, we can see how Canadian areas are denser than US ones, even compared to much bigger US metro areas.
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  #645  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 12:48 AM
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There's definitely something off with your Detroit numbers. If you're defining Detroit as the core three counties, Wayne has around 1.8, Oakland has around 1.3 and Macomb has around 900k. So the three core counties should be around 4 million.
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  #646  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 1:22 AM
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Yeah, there's definitely something off with the "Los Angeles" numbers as well. He's only counting about 75% of Los Angeles County--and nothing in any neighboring county. That's not real.
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  #647  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
There's definitely something off with your Detroit numbers. If you're defining Detroit as the core three counties, Wayne has around 1.8, Oakland has around 1.3 and Macomb has around 900k. So the three core counties should be around 4 million.
I misexplained. It's the core municipalities of each county. Pay attention on the total area, way smaller that the three counties: 5,072 km² vs 1,720 km².

Here: it's only the red and some of the dark orange divisions: https://www.citypopulation.de/en/usa/michigan/admin/

I tried to came up with areas roughly the size of Toronto's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Yeah, there's definitely something off with the "Los Angeles" numbers as well. He's only counting about 75% of Los Angeles County--and nothing in any neighboring county. That's not real.
It's very real. I added over one hundred municipalities in Los Angeles County. It's not Los Angeles County, but part of it: 2,461 km² here for 10,513 km². I kept adding the densest ones closer to Los Angeles proper.

I'm without my notebook now but later I'll post the list with all municipalities added up. Ieven used a blank map on the Paint to keep tracking of all municipalities to make sure I was not missing any.
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  #648  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 4:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I misexplained. It's the core municipalities of each county. Pay attention on the total area, way smaller that the three counties: 5,072 km² vs 1,720 km².

Here: it's only the red and some of the dark orange divisions: https://www.citypopulation.de/en/usa/michigan/admin/

I tried to came up with areas roughly the size of Toronto's.
I don't think it's very useful to compare depopulated Rust Belt cores in the U.S. to Toronto for this purpose. If the city of Detroit were anywhere close to its peak population then this analysis would show it to be a bit more dense than Toronto, which is presently at peak population.
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  #649  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't think it's very useful to compare depopulated Rust Belt cores in the U.S. to Toronto for this purpose. If the city of Detroit were anywhere close to its peak population then this analysis would show it to be a bit more dense than Toronto, which is presently at peak population.
I intended to compare Toronto only with those versions of Chicago, but then I was carried away and added up more comparisons. It's only an exercise, really.

But it's very clear how Canadian cities has became much denser. We see how Toronto is denser than old school Boston or Philadelphia, metro areas with roughly the same size. Dallas, half of the people on the same size.

What surprised me most on the list was actually Montreal, which is reputed to be sprawly for Canadian standards. On the first list, it's denser than much larger US metro areas. Montreal Island (2nd list), too. It contained half of Montreal metro area population and it's as dense as Philadelphia + some neighbouring communities in Delaware and Montgomery.

And Vancouver, no surprises: it only finds density matches when compared to the core of much larger metro areas.
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  #650  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I intended to compare Toronto only with those versions of Chicago, but then I was carried away and added up more comparisons. It's only an exercise, really.

But it's very clear how Canadian cities has became much denser. We see how Toronto is denser than old school Boston or Philadelphia, metro areas with roughly the same size. Dallas, half of the people on the same size.

What surprised me most on the list was actually Montreal, which is reputed to be sprawly for Canadian standards. On the first list, it's denser than much larger US metro areas. Montreal Island (2nd list), too. It contained half of Montreal metro area population and it's as dense as Philadelphia + some neighbouring communities in Delaware and Montgomery.
For Philadelphia, did you consider places in Camden and Burlington counties in New Jersey, or only the Pennsylvania side?
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  #651  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
For Philadelphia, did you consider places in Camden and Burlington counties in New Jersey, or only the Pennsylvania side?
For the 709km2 I used the 12 densidade cities in the Camden side. For the 462km2, that I compared to the Montreal Island, only PA side.
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  #652  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Yeah, there's definitely something off with the "Los Angeles" numbers as well. He's only counting about 75% of Los Angeles County--and nothing in any neighboring county. That's not real.
Brace for a spam. "Los Angeles" is:

Los Angeles
West Hollywood
Beverly Hills
Veterans Administr.
Santa Monica
Marina Del Rey
Culver City
Ladera Heights
Universal City
Burbank
San Fernando
East Los Angeles
Glendale
La Crescenta-Montrose
La Cañada Flintridge
Pasadena
Altadena
View Park-Windsor Hills
Florence-Graham
Westmont
West Athens
Willowbrook
West Rancho Dominguez
Compton
East Rancho Dominguez
Lynwood
South Gate
Walnut Park
Huntington Park
Vernon
Maywood
Bell
Cudahy
Commerce
Bell Gardens
Montebello
Pico Rivera
Downey
Paramount
Bellflower
West Whittier-Los Nietos
Santa Fe Springs
Norwalk
Artesia
Cerritos
South Whittier
East Whittier
La Mirada
South Pasadena
San Marino
San Pasqual
East Pasadena
East San Gabriel
San Gabriel
Alhambra
Monterrey Park
West Carson
Carson
Rancho Dominguez
Long Beach
Signal Hill
Lakewood
Hawaiian Gardens
Inglewood
Lennox
El Segundo
Manhattan Beach
Hermosa Beach
Del Aire
Hawthorne
Redondo Beach
Lawndale
Alondra Park
Gardena
Torrance
Lomita
Palos Verdes Estates
Rancho Palos Verdes
Rolling Hills Estates
Rolling Hills

------------------------------------

And I did another round adding the following cities and finding 9.192 million people (2020 Census) in 3,221 km². Basically LA County south of San Gabriel Mountains:

Sierra Madre
Arcadia
South Monrovia Island
Mayflower Village
North El Monte
Temple City
Rosemead
South San Gabriel
Monrovia
Bradbury
Duarte
El Monte
South El Monte
Whittier Narrows
Azusa
Citrus
Irwindale
Baldwin Park
Vincent
Industry
Avocado Heights
Rose Hills
Hacienda Heights
Rowland Heights
South Diamond Bar
Whittier
La Habra Heights
La Puente
West Puente Valley
Valinda
South San Jose Hills
Diamond Bar
Walnut
West Covina
Covina
Charter Oak
San Dimas
West San Dimas
Glendora
La Verne
Claremont
Pomona
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  #653  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 7:44 AM
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Yeah, Canada is more like the U.K. where small- to medium-size cities are more isolated, independent entities. Oxford and Cambridge are only 56 and 62 miles from Central London, respectively, but neither are traditionally considered part of metropolitan London.

For comparison, New Haven is 77 miles from Grand Central and Princeton 61 miles from Lower Manhattan.
The urban morphology of British cities deviated from their North American counterparts due to the post-war implementation of Green Belts to prevent sprawl. London, Cambridge and Oxford each have their own Green Belts. USCB definitions of metropolitan areas are based around urban sprawl, so the limitation of sprawl would invalidate all three cities being part of the same metropolitan area.

Green Belts however don’t limit the level of interactions, connectivity or commuting. Which is why you end up with the following outcomes.

Pre-pandemic train arrivals into New York and London between 0800-0859 originating from
Princeton Junction – 3
New Haven – 5
Oxford – 8
Cambridge - 12

The second most over-crowded service on the National Rail network was a 12-carriage train from Cambridge to London King’s Cross.
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  #654  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 1:50 PM
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Windsor to London is basically empty, except for big, immaculate farms. No settlements of note.

Nothing like Bos-Wash. Not even anything like rural Michigan, on the other side of the border. Canada is pretty empty outside of a few metros. Even southern Ontario feels pretty sparse outside the GTA. There's a lot less of those random homes in nowheresville, like you get in the eastern half of the U.S.
It’s been mostly illegal to sever rural residential lots outside of urban areas in most of southern Ontario for the last 20 years or so which limits the rural sprawl a lot you see in the US. It still exists in some parts of the province which grew more earlier in the 20th century, but deep southern Ontario by Windsor had very low growth pressures in those years and never saw large amounts of rural sprawl.

Ontario west of London always feels more like Iowa than Michigan or Ohio to me as it’s rural areas are so sparse. It’s also extremely flat and has relatively few wooded areas which contributes to that feel. The 401 out that way is flat, straight, and extremely boring to drive.

The area northwest of the GTA up towards Lake Huron also has no real major population centres over a massive area, though has more of a scattering of small farming towns. It’s relatively isolated.

The GGH area is developed at densities similar to the densest parts of the Northeast and Central Europe, but it drops off real quick once you get off the main corridors.
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  #655  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 1:58 PM
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Also, important to note that the 2021 census populations in Canada have not been adjusted for the census undercount yet as far as I know, which makes the populations lower, particularly in large cities where the census misses the most people.

Toronto’s population is largely believed to have hit 3 million in 2019 for example, despite the census showing less than 2.8 in 2021. Covid may have impacted that a bit but generally most of that difference is census undercount not having been accounted for yet. I believe that data comes out in a later census release.
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  #656  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2022, 11:56 AM
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Moving from Canada to Mexico (I posted their 2020 Census number somewhere in the thread):

Mexico is the typical middle income country that faced a population boom up to the 1980's and 1990's. It's actually behind Brazil in terms of demographic transition. Brazilian births peaked in the mid-1980's; Mexico's in the mid-1990's.

Anyway, something strange happened in 2020. Births fell out of the cliff:

------------------------- Births ------- Deaths ------- TFR ------- Population
1980 --------------- 2,446,238 ----- 434,465 ------ 4.60 ------- 70.4 million
1990 --------------- 2,735,312 ----- 422,803 ------ 3.47 ------- 86.1 million
2000 --------------- 2,798,339 ----- 437,667 ------ 2.72 ----- 103.9 million
2010 --------------- 2,643,908 ----- 592,018 ------ 2.34 ----- 114.3 million
2019 --------------- 2,092,214 ----- 747,784 ------ 2.09 ------ 125.9 million
2020 --------------- 1,629,211 --- 1,086,743 ----- 1.63 ------ 126.0 million
2021 --------------- 1,502,000 --- 1,117,167

I have no explanation for such abrupt fall. Maybe Covid echoes, I don't know, but that wasn't observed anywhere, not on this scale. The 2010-2019 was pronounced decline, with the demographic transition kicking in, but this 2019-2020 drop is jaw dropping.

Side note: Covid deaths were way undercounted in Mexico. They reported 100,000 or so back in 2020 and the excess deaths reached 300,000. That's a stark contrast with Brazil, where the official number of deaths matched perfectly with the excess released later: 200,000 deaths (2020) and 400,000 (2021). Brazil has a much more robust health system which helped on running tests.
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  #657  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2022, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Windsor to London is basically empty, except for big, immaculate farms. No settlements of note.

Nothing like Bos-Wash. Not even anything like rural Michigan, on the other side of the border. Canada is pretty empty outside of a few metros. Even southern Ontario feels pretty sparse outside the GTA. There's a lot less of those random homes in nowheresville, like you get in the eastern half of the U.S.

I think you forgot about Chatham because it's not visible from Highway 401. The urban area of Chatham has a population of 43,000 - not huge but far from "empty".

As others have said, Canada doesn't clutter up it's major highways with commercial/residential sprawl as much as the US does so it can 'feel' much less inhabited than it actually is if you only stay on the highway.
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  #658  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2022, 10:59 PM
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Greece 2021 Census: 10,432,481 inh.

Greece is not regarded as Eastern Europe, but that's another census in the region bringing numbers way below estimates (they had 10.719 million for 2020). Off by 300k.

1991 --- 10,223,392
2001 --- 10,934,917 ---- +7.0%
2011 --- 10,816,286 ---- -1.1%
2021 --- 10,432,481 ---- -3.5%

First census capturing the entire Greek economic collapse. And look how their natural growth evaporated:

------------------------ Births ------ Deaths ------ Natural Change
2008 --------------- 118,302 ------ 107,979 ------ +10,323
2011 --------------- 106,428 ------ 111,099 -------- -4,671
2015 ----------------- 92,149 ------ 121,183 ------ -29,336
2019 ----------------- 83,756 ------ 124,954 ------ -41,191
2020 ----------------- 84,764 ------ 131,084 ------ -46,317
2021 ----------------- 86,390 ------ 145,365 ------ -58,975
2022 * --------------- 50,846 ------- 99,543 ------ -48,697
*Jan-Aug
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  #659  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2022, 12:53 PM
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Bringing the two main metro areas:

Athens
1991 --- 3,532,268
2001 --- 3,823,479 ---- +8.2%
2011 --- 3,753,783 ---- -1.8%
2021 --- 3,722,544 ---- -0.8%

Thessaloniki
1991 --- 860,613
2001 --- 948,962 --- +10.3%
2011 --- 962,033 ---- +1.4%
2021 --- 959,139 ---- -0.3%

I thought Athens was growing way more, but that's not the case. Thessaloniki perfoming better for the past 30 years.

And I just realized Athens is 2nd largest metro area in the world shrinking right now. The multipolar Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto is shrinking as well.
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  #660  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 11:26 PM
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Yuri Yuri is offline
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DW:

Germany population now exceeds 84 million, thanks to the Ukrainian refugee crisis
German population only grew by 82,000 in 2021; by 843,000 in 2022

That's very interesting. Another unexpected (and massive) population boost for Germany.

I remember in the early 2010's people were speculating when France would surpass Germany, many indicating the late 2030's as the most likely date. Back then, Germany (80 million inh. and declining) was registering 650,000 births/year whether (metropolitan) France (63 million inh. and growing), were already at 800,000. And of course, deaths in Germany was almost twice as high.

Fast forward ten years, and now Germany reached 84 million compared to 66 million of France. And since 2016, the number of births in Germany unexpected jumped ahead France and it's been like this since then.

Now a French overtake won't happen during our lifetimes. Demographics are destiny, but not always...
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