Your city's Jewish community

[Docere]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

You’re not remotely correct.

I am Jewish and am well aware of the community's dynamics in North America.

As late as the 1990s community leaders were still raising alarms of the "threat" of intermarriage. You don't see that anymore, today they try to welcome the intermarried into the community and for the children of interfaith marriages to be raised Jewish.

[Steely Dan]

^ Last weekend I attended a bar mitzvah for my friend's son. She's an old school reform jew who grew up on the Northshore (but she's not terribly religious) and the kid's father is a Polish Catholic immigrant who came to Chicago with his parents when he was 12.

This is not all that unusual an occurrence these days.

[Docere]

Not sure if it's "very uncommon" outside the Orthodox community anymore, but definitely lower than the national average. In fact I've posted links from the NYC area Jewish community study showing assimilation to be much lower (and not just among the Orthodox). There's more ethnic cohesiveness, though an outsider may not pick up on the subtle differences between non-Orthodox Jews from the NY area and the Midwest.

[Crawford]

The rate of intermarriage in the NY area is lower. The share of keeping kosher, observing the Sabbath, kids in Jewish day schools, is higher. Not sure how it can't be argued that the NY area, overall, has a notably more observant population. Obviously the population is huge so there are still likely more Reform, intermarried and cultural Jews than anywhere else outside of Israel. But outside of gentrified core precincts, and a few sprawly suburbs, there aren't many places in the tri-state where you have big concentrations of highly assimilated Jews.

Most of the classic postwar Jewish suburbs (Livingston, Scarsdale, Great Neck, Five Towns) are strongly trending more observant. In fact, Five Towns has little non-Orthodox population remaining, and Great Neck is trending in that direction. It's actually hard to find a Reform temple in non-gentrified NYC these days, and even Conservative temples are getting scarce.

[Docere]

"Yehudi" is almost certainly Orthodox, so virtually none.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The rate of intermarriage in the NY area is lower. The share of keeping kosher, observing the Sabbath, kids in Jewish day schools, is higher. Not sure how it can't be argued that the NY area, overall, has a notably more observant population. Obviously the population is huge so there are still likely more Reform, intermarried and cultural Jews than anywhere else outside of Israel. But outside of gentrified core precincts, and a few sprawly suburbs, there aren't many places in the tri-state where you have big concentrations of highly assimilated Jews.

Most of the classic postwar Jewish suburbs (Livingston, Scarsdale, Great Neck, Five Towns) are strongly trending more observant. In fact, Five Towns has little non-Orthodox population remaining, and Great Neck is trending in that direction. It's actually hard to find a Reform temple in non-gentrified NYC these days, and even Conservative temples are getting scarce.

I think a lot of people assume Scarsdale is "just like Newton or Highland Park." And at the surface level, that appears to be true.

[mrnyc]

a small number of the reformers aka jewish-lite indeed inter-marry, but in that scenario mostly will expect the spouse to convert and raise the kids jewish, at least nominally.

what is very rare is a jewish spouse that would allow the family to be raised christian or some other religion and not at all jewish.

and yes sure some people like to go rogue, ie., like leonard cohen and his buddhist era, or bob dylan in his born again christian phase, but leonard was buried as a jewish guy and bob is back in the tribe.

i dk how much all this really differs from other religions. i mean some christians do not like catholics, for example. so whatever.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

a small number of the reformers aka jewish-lite indeed inter-marry, but in that scenario mostly will expect the spouse to convert and raise the kids jewish, at least nominally.

what is very rare is a jewish spouse that would allow the family to be raised christian or some other religion and not at all jewish.

I don't think this is rare at all. My college roommate was raised Christian even though he has a very Jewish surname from his Jewish father. He was also born and raised in northern New Jersey FWIW.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

a small number of the reformers aka jewish-lite indeed inter-marry, but in that scenario mostly will expect the spouse to convert and raise the kids jewish, at least nominally.

what is very rare is a jewish spouse that would allow the family to be raised christian or some other religion and not at all jewish.

growing up in north shore suburban chicago, i know enough "jewish-lite" people who have inter-married to know that it is not "very rare". their "jewishness" is really just an ethnic identity at this point more than anything else. they are not terribly religious people.

my mom's brother (raised catholic) married a woman who raised jewish, and their two kids are kinda both and neither at the same time. they weren't really "raised" in either faith, at least not in any formal sense as outlined by the traditions of those religions.

now maybe this phenomenon is much less common in the NYC area (although i did know quite a few NY-area "jewish-lites" in college, and my 3 closest jewish friends in college all ended up marrying gentiles), but it's important to remember that most US jews don't live in the new york area. while it is indeed the most jewish place in the nation BY FAR, it still only accounts for ~2.2M of the nation's 7.6M jews (~30%).

[mrnyc]

^ so then in my experience then maybe cleveland is more strictly jewish too.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think this is rare at all. My college roommate was raised Christian even though he has a very Jewish surname from his Jewish father. He was also born and raised in northern New Jersey FWIW.

well yeah that would be the likely scenario for it to happen, but in my experience its much more rare than you think.

of course if mom was jewish the kid is a legacy.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Anyway, in terms of white “ethnic” enclaves in the city, this thread is a bit absurd. It may have been relevant in 1940, but Jews, Irish, Poles, Italians, etc. live in the suburbs in 2022. That being said, Jews, since they don’t really marry Christians, do congregate in certain suburbs like Boca, Scarsdale, or Great Neck.

Italian Bensonhurst and Greek Astoria are post-WWII phenomena, and obviously aren't filled with fourth generation Americans, so not sure what "may have been relevant in 1940" has to do with anything.

[Docere]

1. What's incorrect about it?

2. Nobody is disputing the existence of Jewish ethnic enclaves.

3. You seem to revel in being a contrarian. Earlier in the thread you were arguing that nobody would ever confuse Irish Americans and old money WASPs in the Northeast, now you're arguing ethnicity doesn't matter at all among whites anymore except for Jews.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Jews also are a very discrete ethnic group. “Stereotypes” like George Costanza are everywhere in NY and South Florida. These are not people that you’d mistake for descendants of the Mayflower in New Canaan, Connecticut.

Jason Alexander might be Jewish, but George Costanza was meant to be Italian-American.

Elaine wasn't supposed to be Jewish either.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

a small number of the reformers aka jewish-lite indeed inter-marry, but in that scenario mostly will expect the spouse to convert and raise the kids jewish, at least nominally.

what is very rare is a jewish spouse that would allow the family to be raised christian or some other religion and not at all jewish.

Not sure where you're getting this from? Nationally, over half of Jews marry goim, and 70% of non-Orthodox Jews.

The reason the Orthodox are getting more prominent in Jewish culture is mostly because everyone else is outmarrying or having very few children, while the ultra-Orthodox have huge families.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Jews are more of an ethnic group than a religion. Like most “religions,” Judaism is truly absurd. It revolves around an alleged period of slavery in Egypt, and yet, there’s ZERO archeological evidence that Jews were ever in Egypt. Despite this, Jews, including Begin and Netanyahu, falsely claim that “Jews built the pyramids”! The false narrative about Egyptians enslaving Jews came into existence after the Assyrian conquests of the Jews and the Babylonian conquest.

Moreover, notwithstanding the Jewish myth that Moses wrote the Torah, while "God" dictated it on Mt. Sinai, a large portion of the Torah, in fact, merely copies earlier Mesopotamian and Babylonian stories like the Enumah Elish, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Code of Hammurabi, etc. The Torah is no "truer" than those much older myths and legal codes.

The early Jews' integration and shared identity with the Canaanites and other local cultures is further reflected by the extensive evidence that before the Captivity, Jews in Canaan worshipped local gods like Asheera, Baal, etc. Statues have been found of YHWH and Asheera, which depict them as husband and wife. Even YHWH, who's also referred to as El YHWH, is based on the Canaanite god, El. As to the Jews' polytheistic roots, recall that Moses allegedly went beserk and broke the tablets when, after "having afternoon tea with God" on Mt. Sinai, he found the Israelites worshiping Baal.

Indeed, Jews became monotheistic ONLY AFTER the Persians freed them. At that point, they developed this nationalistic myth of defeating the greatest superpower known to history and having YHWH part the Red Sea as they left and then rain manna from heaven for forty years as they pillaged, raped, and plundered in the desert en route to the Promised Land. This is as plausible as God appearing to Moses as a burning bush, etc.

The "god" of the Old Testament, moreover, is very much akin to other "gods" in the ancient world in that he's a capricious, jealous "human" who always interacts with people, much like the gods in the Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, etc.

In my opinion, the great Jonathan Swift could not have been more correct when he stated: “We have just enough religion to make us hate but not enough to make us love each other."

There is some supposition there may be an element of truth in Old Testament.

To broadly summarize, there are two different historic lineages discussed in the Old Testament - that of Abraham and that of Moses. Perhaps not coincidentally, there were also two different kingdoms- Israel and Judah. It seems likely that the Torah was something of a stitch-up job, collecting the history of Israel and Judah and putting it into a single work.

In addition, Moses is actually a variant of an ancient Egyptian name. It's entirely plausible there were some group of Egyptians who left the land for Canaan, ultimately developing into the historical priesthood of the Levites.

[Docere]

The Reform movement has been the largest Jewish stream for a generation or more, and I think that's largely because it includes patrilineal descent, is very welcoming of interfaith families etc.

Conservative Judaism dominated in the postwar years; at that time Reform was still seen as mostly long-established German Jewish and very wealthy established families. Its numbers have declined significantly.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Jason Alexander might be Jewish, but George Costanza was meant to be Italian-American.

Elaine wasn't supposed to be Jewish either.

I think the Costanzas lived in Astoria. They're "Italian" but it's pretty obvious they're lower middle class, outer borough Jews.

[Steely Dan]

the religion of the Constanzas was intentionally left ambiguous so that the show writers could go in different directions with the characters when it suited a particular punchline, but yes, the 3 actors who played george and his mom and dad are all jews in real life.

I mean, frank invented festivus as a response to and repudiation of Christmas, which doesn't seem like something a jewish man would do. Jews already have hannukah, what do they need Christmas for?


Jerry (and his various family members) were the only ones who were explicitly jewish on the show.

[Docere]

Orthodox

Montreal 31%
Baltimore 21%
New York 20%
Toronto 17%
Miami 11%
Cleveland 10%
Detroit 9%
Philadelphia 8%
Chicago 7%
Washington 5%
Boston 4%
San Francisco 3%

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

Orthodox

Montreal 31%
Baltimore 21%
New York 20%
Toronto 17%
Miami 11%
Cleveland 10%
Detroit 9%
Philadelphia 8%
Chicago 7%
Washington 5%
Boston 4%
San Francisco 3%

Pittsburgh's Jewish pop. 10% Orthodox