Downtown Grocery Stores

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pound for pound (relative to city population, downtown population or neighbourhood population), I've always found that the inner city offerings almost always seem more *complete* most anywhere I've been outside Canada-USA. (Not just in Europe.)

Isn't that just because most places have way more residential density in their city centres than North America?

I find that in places with density, there's no lack of grocers, in North America.

[someone123]

A couple of aspects of this conversation that tend to get overlooked are urban car ownership and online shopping and delivery.

Online shopping and delivery must be lowering demand for inner city grocery stores a little, and changing the types of products that people are likely to buy if they are going to take things back home on foot.

We may not like plentiful downtown parking and car ownership but people who have a car and live 2-3 km from a grocery store aren't really trapped in a "food desert". I'd guess the worst off in Canada for groceries are rural and suburban folks without cars.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Isn't that just because most places have way more residential density in their city centres than North America?

I find that in places with density, there's no lack of grocers, in North America.

I actually had density in mind when I mentioned "relative to population". Even our highest-density areas *seem* to have less complete offerings. Perhaps it's just my impression, though I think someone123 may be on to something with car ownership.

Even in our high-density areas, my guess is that car ownership is still very high relative to similar inner city areas elsewhere. If the number of inner city dwellers who drive to businesses 2-3 km away (with parking) is high, then this reduces the need for and viability of businesses that are within walking distance of where they live.

[Acajack]

Still with this, I once lived in a downtown/inner city district of a Canadian city where the population density is in the 6,000-7,000 persons per sq km range. That's actually a higher population density than two thirds of the boroughs of London UK.

Yet local business options (at least within walking distance) were surprisingly slim due to most people having cars and using them to do their errands. This was a pretty affluent area with at least two streets that could serve as "high streets" but the offerings were sub-par on both. One of them had maybe a corner store and a dry cleaner. Maybe a café of sorts.

The other had more stuff for sure, but mostly grimy cheap rent places like laundromats, pizza by the slice places, etc. No grocery stores and no local booksellers, hardware stores, bakeries, etc. that are the staple of high streets the world over.

There are areas of Canadian inner cities that do have all of that within walking distance, but they're pretty rare and I'd argue even a majority of our denser urban areas have gaps in what's on offer.

[J.OT13]

Based on a 2011 survey for Ottawa:

• 53% within the traditional downtown (Escarpment District, CBD, ByWard Market), don't have a car;
• 41% of households within Ottawa's Inner Area (bordered by the Ottawa River, Rideau River and Trillium Line) don't own a car;
• 26% in the old west end (bordered by the Ottawa River, Trillium Line, 417 and the Lincoln Fields section of the Transitway);
• 29% of the old east end (bordered by the Ottawa River, Aviation Parkway, 417 and Rideau River).

https://twitter.com/HealthTransport/...40646920376320

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I actually had density in mind when I mentioned "relative to population". Even our highest-density areas *seem* to have less complete offerings. Perhaps it's just my impression, though I think someone123 may be on to something with car ownership.

I think car ownership rates are a bit of a red herring when it comes to smaller grocery stores in urban areas. A much more likely explanation is that density in our urban centres isn't really urban density by developed world standards. I'm always struck by this in Ottawa where people look at Rideau and think of it as dense in the same sense as any downtown neighborhood in any metro. But it's barely as dense as midtown Toronto (along Eglinton for example) or a lot of European suburbs. I think where we have similar density, you see similar offerings. And really in Canada, that's down to a handful of neighbourhoods in our three largest suburbs. This is different in Europe and Asia, where, for a whole bunch of reasons, even smaller cities are fairly dense.

Will add that the proportion that live in a dense area also matters. If it's 10% of your population, the stores in the dense area are likely to be basic, with the chains planning for many more suburban locations. If 80% live in a dense urban area, the offerings become more elaborate because of a larger catchment and more efficient geographic distribution. You can sort of see this principle in work at the local level when you compare offerings in any downtown and a typical suburban neighborhood.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Based on a 2011 survey for Ottawa:

• 53% within the traditional downtown (Escarpment District, CBD, ByWard Market), don't have a car;
• 41% of households within Ottawa's Inner Area (bordered by the Ottawa River, Rideau River and Trillium Line) don't own a car;
• 26% in the old west end (bordered by the Ottawa River, Trillium Line, 417 and the Lincoln Fields section of the Transitway);
• 29% of the old east end (bordered by the Ottawa River, Aviation Parkway, 417 and Rideau River).

This is what I'd expect and I think it would be very different for an inner European city of similar size where half of the streets are pedestrianized, most of the buildings do not have structured parking, and there is high contention for what little on-street parking exists.

It's a good bet that those ~60% of inner households who have a car are not generally hauling bags of flour and kitty litter 20 minutes on foot. And the convenience factor overall may actually be higher on average in Ottawa than in some cities where people walk or take transit to do all of their shopping (even though from an urbanism perspective that may be considered less desirable).

[ssiguy]

Just from my general observations, I don't think there are any Canadians cities with a true food desert but there are many with a food mirage..............being able to access AFFORDABLE and fresh groceries in our downtowns.

To me this seems most acute in our mid-size cities from 50 to 800k. Small towns under 10,000 usually don't suffer from this because everyone has a car and going downtown to you grocer takes no more time and effort than going to the ones on the outside of town. Also, there is no real difference between downtown and outer area real estate values and they to offer free parking.

Mid-size cities however have many more people who use transit, parking isn't free, land prices are more expensive downtown, and suburban grocery stores are far faster to get to than downtown ones. Many have suffered from depopulation over the years and only in the last 20 years has that trend reversed itself.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Based on a 2011 survey for Ottawa:

• 53% within the traditional downtown (Escarpment District, CBD, ByWard Market), don't have a car;
• 41% of households within Ottawa's Inner Area (bordered by the Ottawa River, Rideau River and Trillium Line) don't own a car;
• 26% in the old west end (bordered by the Ottawa River, Trillium Line, 417 and the Lincoln Fields section of the Transitway);
• 29% of the old east end (bordered by the Ottawa River, Aviation Parkway, 417 and Rideau River).

https://twitter.com/HealthTransport/...40646920376320

My guess is that the densest parts of inner city London or Paris probably have three quarters of their households without cars.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think car ownership rates are a bit of a red herring when it comes to smaller grocery stores in urban areas. A much more likely explanation is that density in our urban centres isn't really urban density by developed world standards. I'm always struck by this in Ottawa where people look at Rideau and think of it as dense in the same sense as any downtown neighborhood in any metro. But it's barely as dense as midtown Toronto (along Eglinton for example) or a lot of European suburbs. I think where we have similar density, you see similar offerings. And really in Canada, that's down to a handful of neighbourhoods in our three largest suburbs. This is different in Europe and Asia, where, for a whole bunch of reasons, even smaller cities are fairly dense.

Will add that the proportion that live in a dense area also matters. If it's 10% of your population, the stores in the dense area are likely to be basic, with the chains planning for many more suburban locations. If 80% live in a dense urban area, the offerings become more elaborate because of a larger catchment and more efficient geographic distribution. You can sort of see this principle in work at the local level when you compare offerings in any downtown and a typical suburban neighborhood.

I mentioned comparable density though. The area around Rideau St. is probably around 6000 persons per sq km. That's also comparable to most London boroughs. And denser than a lot of them.

Your point about the structure with which a city and metro area are built is a good one. But I think cars are a really big factor.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think car ownership rates are a bit of a red herring when it comes to smaller grocery stores in urban areas. A much more likely explanation is that density in our urban centres isn't really urban density by developed world standards. I'm always struck by this in Ottawa where people look at Rideau and think of it as dense in the same sense as any downtown neighborhood in any metro. But it's barely as dense as midtown Toronto (along Eglinton for example) or a lot of European suburbs. I think where we have similar density, you see similar offerings. And really in Canada, that's down to a handful of neighbourhoods in our three largest suburbs. This is different in Europe and Asia, where, for a whole bunch of reasons, even smaller cities are fairly dense.

It really depends on the city. It seems nobody's complaining about Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.

I guess few are likely to believe me but I think Halifax is probably better than similar-sized European towns for actual grocery offerings and convenience. There are now 2 urban format grocery stores (or 3 depending on what you count) plus the farmers' market and a bunch of other places and then there are larger grocery store locations that would be a kind of retail Valhalla in most of Europe; larger, cheaper, better selection, better hours (some grocery stores there are 24 hour), better service. And then these days you've got online shopping and delivery, Uber, etc.

At the risk of being burned at the stake I think there are a bunch of Canadian cities that have overall food scenes (stores + restaurants) comparable to or better than similar European cities, with Vancouver being one on that list. I don't really feel like Canada plays second fiddle in this area. And I am not sure that I would rather live in a European city although I have not gone to Scandinavia yet; maybe the cities there are nicer. One exception I'd say is higher end restaurants, Michelin star type places, which tend to be less popular in Canada. But I am a bit skeptical of how much attention people pay to those (probably mainly because they are high status). They are nice but they make up a small proportion of the whole.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mentioned comparable density though. The area around Rideau St. is probably around 6000 persons per sq km. That's also comparable to most London boroughs. And denser than a lot of them.

There's a big difference though when that's one of the densest neighbourhoods in a city vs. an average density for most of another city. Particularly when the latter density figures cover much larger geographic areas (encompassing parks, industry, etc).

Not that car ownership isn't also a factor, but Rideau St. ≠ a London borough. If the rest of Ottawa were as dense as Rideau though, it would be another story.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My guess is that the densest parts of inner city London or Paris probably have three quarters of their households without cars.

I would bet even higher than that. My guess would be something like 90%.

As per Transport for London, 54% of London (the whole metro) households had one or more vehicles, with 2.6M vehicles resistered in London. That's for a city of almost 9 million.

And I would guess they use those cars far less than the ownership rates imply. As one of my British counterparts living in London once told me, "You don't own a car to drive in London. You have one to get away from it on the weekend."

[J.OT13]

When it comes to car ownership, we can't compare ourselves to European cities with fantastic transit options. Outside of the Confederation and Trillium Lines, transit in Ottawa's urban core is absolutely terrible. Bus routes are sparse and reliability is atrocious; a bus is supposed to come by every 15 minutes, but you'll likely have to wait 45 when 3 buses show up at once. For reliable transit service, move to the suburbs. That could partly explain the high car ownership compared to European neighbourhoods of similar density.

Rideau street is an example that's come up a few times, but it has always had the best access to food stores within the urban area, more so than denser Centretown. ByWard Market and its many small specialty stores aside, it was serviced by two full service grocery stores up until recently (Loblaws and a Metro now demolished for a condo development, but will reopen within the podium), a mini format Farm Boy and two Shoppers*.

*There's a third mini Shoppers, but it's a pharmacy. They took over a long standing independent pharmacy in the Market.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

It really depends on the city. It seems nobody's complaining about Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.

I guess few are likely to believe me but I think Halifax is probably better than similar-sized European towns for actual grocery offerings and convenience. There are now 2 urban format grocery stores (or 3 depending on what you count) plus the farmers' market and a bunch of other places and then there are larger grocery store locations that would be a kind of retail Valhalla in most of Europe; larger, cheaper, better selection, better hours (some grocery stores there are 24 hour), better service. And then these days you've got online shopping and delivery, Uber, etc.

At the risk of being burned at the stake I think there are a bunch of Canadian cities that have overall food scenes (stores + restaurants) comparable to or better than similar European cities, with Vancouver being one on that list. I don't really feel like Canada plays second fiddle in this area. And I am not sure that I would rather live in a European city although I have not gone to Scandinavia yet; maybe the cities there are nicer. One exception I'd say is higher end restaurants, Michelin star type places, which tend to be less popular in Canada. But I am a bit skeptical of how much attention people pay to those (probably mainly because they are high status). They are nice but they make up a small proportion of the whole.

I don't necessarily disagree with the general sentiment, but I think that in terms of the cohesiveness of the urban offering (I mean at street level, not necessarily what ends up on your plate), we're often lacking.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

At the risk of being burned at the stake I think there are a bunch of Canadian cities that have overall food scenes (stores + restaurants) comparable to or better than similar European cities, with Vancouver being one on that list. I don't really feel like Canada plays second fiddle in this area.

I agree with most of this. I certainly wouldn't burn you on the stake.

I had the opportunity to live in two European cities (a medium-sized city in Germany on exchange when I was much younger; Amsterdam where I rented someone's house for about 3 weeks many years ago) for an extended period of time, and I don't know what people are gushing about.

I used to joke that the first word you learn in German is "Geschlossen" (closed), because a retail culture that's only open M-F 9-6, Sat 9-2pm isn't one modeled around consumer preferences.

For a big city, I found the grocery options in Amsterdam to be threadbare: Albert Heijn had stores similar in size to the small, urban format IGAs in Vancouver (like the one on W. 4th at Alma), but without the selection of high-end products alongside the staples. For example, you wouldn't find a wall of whole bean coffee from different roasters, or eggs that ranged from caged white eggs in a 30 pack all the way up to $8 organic/free run specialties. It was just 'eggs'.

In Granville Island there's a store that sells all the miscellaneous ingredients you need to round out your kitchen like Juniper berries or prickly pear cactus. Didn't find one of those stores over there.

Generally, I think one of the things that North America - and especially the United States - does exceptionally well is consumer convenience. Like I said before, if your city doesn't have a large amount of urban format grocery stores, just wait until there's a critical mass of car-less urbanites and it'll get one. Consumers with disposable income are generally not ignored in North America.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I agree with most of this. I certainly wouldn't burn you on the stake.

I had the opportunity to live in two European cities (a medium-sized city in Germany on exchange when I was much younger; Amsterdam where I rented someone's house for about 3 weeks many years ago) for an extended period of time, and I don't know what people are gushing about.

I used to joke that the first word you learn in German is "Geschlossen" (closed), because a retail culture that's only open M-F 9-6, Sat 9-2pm isn't one modeled around consumer preferences.

For a big city, I found the grocery options in Amsterdam to be threadbare: Albert Heijn had stores similar in size to the small, urban format IGAs in Vancouver (like the one on W. 4th at Alma), but without the selection of high-end products alongside the staples. For example, you wouldn't find a wall of whole bean coffee from different roasters, or eggs that ranged from caged white eggs in a 30 pack all the way up to $8 organic/free run specialties. It was just 'eggs'.

In Granville Island there's a store that sells all the miscellaneous ingredients you need to round out your kitchen like Juniper berries or prickly pear cactus. Didn't find one of those stores over there.

Generally, I think one of the things that North America - and especially the United States - does exceptionally well is consumer convenience. Like I said before, if your city doesn't have a large amount of urban format grocery stores, just wait until there's a critical mass of car-less urbanites and it'll get one. Consumers with disposable income are generally not ignored in North America.

Oh yeah, I'd definitely stack up the selection (including fineries) of a couple of my local grocery stores here with anything you'd find in a decently-sized city in Europe. If I factor in specialized groceries, dessert shops, pastry shops, cheese shops, beer shops, etc., we're not wanting at all. And I live in Gatineau.

It just doesn't exist in a charming epicurean urban environment.

And overseas store hours...

And of course, the U.S. gave the world Wegmans so there's that in their favour!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I used to joke that the first word you learn in German is "Geschlossen" (closed), because a retail culture that's only open M-F 9-6, Sat 9-2pm isn't one modeled around consumer preferences.

A lot of this is trade-offs too so I don't think it's possible to, say, have North American style hours and selection but shift 40% of the market share out to mom and pop storefronts so that shopping streets look better and there's a bit more fun and discovery inherent to shopping.

I think a lot of Canadian cities strike a pretty good balance where they still have the fun boutiques but the commodity stuff is provided efficiently. And importantly people near the bottom end of the economic ladder can get decent quality affordable food.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

At the risk of being burned at the stake I think there are a bunch of Canadian cities that have overall food scenes (stores + restaurants) comparable to or better than similar European cities...

I know and have met a fair number of people from or living in various French, Spanish, Italian and Swiss cities and towns who envy the availability of Asian food in Toronto. In terms of a long-term living situation, I would personally find the chaotic cavalcade of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese and Thai options in suburban strip malls to be far more appealing than a picturesque French or Italian village where the local sausage tradition goes back five generations (as lovely as that is).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of this is trade-offs too so I don't think it's possible to, say, have North American style hours and selection but shift 40% of the market share out to mom and pop storefronts so that shopping streets look better and there's a bit more fun and discovery inherent to shopping.

I think a lot of Canadian cities strike a pretty good balance where they still have the fun boutiques but the commodity stuff is provided efficiently. And importantly people near the bottom end of the economic ladder can get decent quality affordable food.

Mom and pop on the high street are often struggling in much of Europe as well.

We often find it hard to adjust to their hours but that's because we're often travelling by train and stick to the inner cities.

If you travel Europe by car you see and have access to hypermarkets like E. Leclerc, Carrefour, Kaufland, etc. where the opening hours are very similar to what we are accustomed to. The only exception being they are often closed Sunday afternoons.

Many smaller shops have closed in the face of this competition.