CHICAGO | General Developments

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

You've said that a few times. On what basis are you so bullish on the South Loop in the near term?

Ever since the condo crash, there is a fundamental mis(read under-)pricing (all real estate, land, etc) that is evident in throughout the neighborhood. Part of it I believe has to do with the outsized magnitude of the condo crash there compared to elsewhere, part of it I think also has to do with the ever-underlying ' 'anti'-southside bias' that runs through everything in this city.

However, smart investors and developers have really (in the last year or two) picked up on this mispricing, particularly in light of the South Loop's tremendous fundamentals in terms of location (lake, culture, museums, proximity to core, transit, etc etc etc) and are gearing up - I really think we're we'll positioned for a true explosion of activity over the rest of this decade - especially when you consider that there is not only going to be develoment and investment pressure coming from the north (traditional), but it's also going to be emerging from the south, as all that imminent development activity around the convention center and motor row on the near south side will be pushing northward as well.....I really think we're going to be in for a nice ride.....

[rlw777]

^ I think south loop needs to increase it's population a bit before it really takes off. It does have a lot going for it as you said but It still feels very disconnected. I don't go down there much but when I have it seems there isn't a single pedestrian thoroughfare in the south loop that feels active. Yeah there are cultural destinations you might go to once a year that are close but the south loop really lacks the daily / weekly / monthly destinations that are a big part of choosing where to live in a city.

[wierdaaron]

What the south loop needs is more schools so people will stop moving out as soon as they have kids. Every south loop meeting I've been to has been dominated by "more schools please" talk.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

So, just to clarify a few things: My vomit was directed not at adaptive reuse projects (which in general principle I love and there are so many specific great examples of very design sensitive adaptations that are worthy of high praise indeed), rather it was directed at the largely BS buzzword of the moment/cliche/salesy-hype/somewhat 'faddiness' of 'creative office space' nomenclature.....

My comments in general were not a sign of bias against repurposed buildings. Some people, when confronted with well-reasoned analysis, for some reason assume an underlying bias when none exists if they don't like the conclusions that are pointed to........mine was just an assessment of what's happening in the real demand and supply conditions, and likely future conditions of downtown (and near-downtown) office space, and the increasing likelihood that Sterling Bay may be overestimating the future demand for such space further and further from the core and nexus of transit lines in Chicago (the Loop-true W Loop....not the near west side)...........this is not some sort of underlying bias - and I certainly have no dogs in the fight, so to speak (no book-talking here - as nothing makes me puke with more gusto than that - not salmonella-laced chicken - not anything).....

One other thing, and more of a detail of a quibble, but still: Calling this Fulton West project adaptive re-use is arguably a bit of a stretch.....I mean, this was never 'used' for anything in actuality in the first place. It's really a new development (that they have a bit of a head start on), and isn't a different use (still office space, although now multi-tenant) from what was originally planned there in the MarchFirst hq.............I mean, this is much different from taking an existing, completed and now obsolete old warehouse building and converting it into residential or office space (real, common adaptive reuse projects)........

I lied - there were two other things - Finally, re my earlier comment about the 'back to the future' aspect - obviously something went wrong with the Marchfirst thing......thinking about it a little more, that was of course part of a bubble bursting - a very large and macro (internet/tech) bubble 15 years ago............that's really the only reason a medium size-to-largish office building ever 'made sense' originally at that location (although Marchfirst could have planned their HQ to be anywhere, to want to place it at such an off-beat location for office surely only worked in a state 'mania' (eg: not thinking clearly)......now that we're revisiting that future in a way (with respect to a situation where at least to some players in the cre market, this location seems to make sense to them for significant new office space), even though the fundamentals of the location for significant office arent that much different, isn't it possible that some of these folks (Sterling Bay, some others perhaps) are getting a little carried away in their head, ie some mania forming again with respect to this narrative of 'creative office space' in the 'meatpacking district' - further and further west........perhaps the nascent stages of a different type of bubble of sorts - smaller and more niche, to be certain.............it's a possibility, at the least.....

Apologies in advance, but I'll quote - and follow-up on - myself here.

I'm now more convinced than ever that I was really onto something, and that Sterling Bay is 'overdoing it' with respect to new 'creative office' space in the West Loop/Fulton River. They have - according to CoStar - another proposed new construction project in the works, this one much bigger - at 550,000 sq ft - and planned for the intersection of Randolph and Carpenter. They're calling it Randolph West. From the small rendering I saw, it doesn't look bad, and I would say definitely better than Fulton West (I wasn't too impressed with the new renderings for that one). Here's the thing: Does Sterling Bay fully understand that a big part of the appeal of this type of space to the 'creatives'/techey-millenials, is that they are located in older buildings with character that are adaptively-re-used? Will completely new construction that is attempting in at least some ways to mimic and/or 'tip the hat' to historic warehouse loft-type structures really have the same impression on these tenants? I think probably not - on the whole (sure, some will inevitably be tempted). As the inventory of true historic adaptive re-use loft office space available for lease shrinks in River North and the West Loop, where are these firms actually turning right now? Increasingly to the Loop itself, in historic Class B/C office towers with some character........I think this trend will only continue, as well......

[SamInTheLoop]

So part of what always frustrates me when it comes to understanding local/neighborhood development parterns and transformation is the tendency for a lot of folks to try to put neighborhoods into a 'box', meaning it has to decisively go into a certain direction, all-out. Frankly I don't get it. This seemed to come up when we were discussing the South Loop the other week, and all of a sudden the conversation took a sharp turn toward making it about 'being like River North' with lots of destination nightclubs and restaurants. Huh? That's not what defines a successful, growing, densifying, vibrant, mixed-use urban neighborhood. That's an option for a very small percentage of them. Most areas are going to be more diversified and not so overwhelmingly geared toward entertaining (suburbanites) visitors. That's the South Loop - more diversified in its offerings and orientation to a mix of locals and visitors....

And schools? What? A relative shortage of public schools I'd argue is something shared by most if not all areas in greater downtown....the Loop, New Eastside/Lakeshore East, Streeterville, West Loop....right? A new public school in the South Loop would be great indeed, but the lack of it isn't what is 'holding the neighborhood back' or anything of the sort.......just like a relative lack of a concentration of true destination restaurants/bars or what not is also not holding it back, as some seem to be suggesting.....

[rlw777]

^ To be clear I was not talking about restaurants / bars / night life specifically. Nor am I talking about 'destination' in terms of a trendy location.

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

Apologies in advance, but I'll quote - and follow-up on - myself here.

I'm now more convinced than ever that I was really onto something, and that Sterling Bay is 'overdoing it' with respect to new 'creative office' space in the West Loop/Fulton River. They have - according to CoStar - another proposed new construction project in the works, this one much bigger - at 550,000 sq ft - and planned for the intersection of Randolph and Carpenter. They're calling it Randolph West. From the small rendering I saw, it doesn't look bad, and I would say definitely better than Fulton West (I wasn't too impressed with the new renderings for that one). Here's the thing: Does Sterling Bay fully understand that a big part of the appeal of this type of space to the 'creatives'/techey-millenials, is that they are located in older buildings with character that are adaptively-re-used? Will completely new construction that is attempting in at least some ways to mimic and/or 'tip the hat' to historic warehouse loft-type structures really have the same impression on these tenants? I think probably not - on the whole (sure, some will inevitably be tempted). As the inventory of true historic adaptive re-use loft office space available for lease shrinks in River North and the West Loop, where are these firms actually turning right now? Increasingly to the Loop itself, in historic Class B/C office towers with some character........I think this trend will only continue, as well......

I think character is important, sure. And I dont know if anyone actually enjoys working in stodgy 80s era office towers. One the other hand, I doubt its necessarily character driving the decision and is not instead much moreso a cost decision. If youre a small firm starting out, odds are you probably cant afford the Loop in a class A space, but can definitely get something nice by going a bit out of the way. Open office layouts are also the trend now, for better or worse. As you mentioned, lower class downtown options are appealing to...but again, those are cheaper. A prestigious law firm isnt going to want to be in a space like that, a bunch of kids coding or whatever probably dont care (until they wind up becoming successful and turn corporate and then move into the "sterile" Class A space).

[UrbanLibertine]

Demolition permits were issued for the church at 14th and Union. Reminder of the project set to replace the church.

http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2...ty-village.php

[ChiTownWonder]

the Northerly island park has been UC for a while now. any idea when it will open?

[the urban politician]

The highrise at the SW corner of Michigan and Roosevelt has been undergoing some serious rehab of its commercial space. Does anybody have a better idea of what is planned?

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by rlw777

^ I think south loop needs to increase it's population a bit before it really takes off. It does have a lot going for it as you said but It still feels very disconnected. I don't go down there much but when I have it seems there isn't a single pedestrian thoroughfare in the south loop that feels active. Yeah there are cultural destinations you might go to once a year that are close but the south loop really lacks the daily / weekly / monthly destinations that are a big part of choosing where to live in a city.

I agree with this, and I think one of the problems is poor planning. For example, with the last condo wave it should have been obvious to not allow garages along S. Michigan Ave, which is naturally poised to be a commercial "main st" for the south loop. But once again, city planners were asleep at the wheel.

S. Michigan is still salvagable, of course (as is the S. Loop), but still there needs to be some basic guidelines in place to encourage active streetfronts where appropriate.

[ithakas]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

The highrise at the SW corner of Michigan and Roosevelt has been undergoing some serious rehab of its commercial space. Does anybody have a better idea of what is planned?

A flagship Aurelio's Pizza: http://chicago.eater.com/2014/2/26/6...-to-south-loop

[wierdaaron]

Originally Posted by ithakas

A flagship Aurelio's Pizza: http://chicago.eater.com/2014/2/26/6...-to-south-loop

Yeah, with a Aurelio's right there, Giordanos a little bit down Michigan, a Lou Malnati's over on State, and a Gino's East sports bar up in Printer's Row, the north end of the sloop will have all the local pizza joints covered. Roosevelt still has a few sore spots (that gas station at Wabash, for instance), but the way it's transformed in the 5 years since I moved to town has been really impressive, and I hope to see it continue as the Roosevelt/Michigan corner gets more robust.

[Mr Downtown]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

once again, city planners were asleep at the wheel. . . . there needs to be some basic guidelines in place to encourage active streetfronts where appropriate.

Wait, you're now saying that planning staff should follow the Near South Community Plan???

Originally Posted by The Urban Politician

> Here's an idea:

SCRAP THE NEAR SOUTH COMMUNITY PLAN! IT SUCKS

[ardecila]

^ Uh what? Your digging up of an 8 year old quote is worthy of a politician...

And while I agree with the notion that the South Loop needs better and more comprehensive planning, the NSCP's arbitrary height limits don't make sense to me within the context of a skyscraper-lined Grant Park. The overall density of South Loop will be constrained for the foreseeable future by the huge tracts of townhouses in Dearborn Park I and II, which just so happen to sit on top of a huge rail transit hub at Roosevelt, so tall buildings are warranted in the rest of the neighborhood.

[the urban politician]

I don't remember saying that, but just because I say "scrap a plan" doesn't mean I don't think some elements of it may have merit.

[Rizzo]

^ Regardless, it's a post from 8 years ago and the perspective and context may be different. Seriously, who takes the time to dig up all old quote on a different website???

[spyguy]

Chicago and Wells
88 units, designed by BKL





This proposal (at least this version) does replace several older buildings, including the corner building which I'm fond of:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZawrC

[Buckman821]

^Well that was a let down. I was really liking the design until you placed it.

The site seems large enough to preserve the building and still develop densely.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Wait, you're now saying that planning staff should follow the Near South Community Plan???

For someone with such vast knowledge, you can be very, very small.