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  #1961  
Old Posted May 27, 2022, 12:53 AM
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Though a hypothetical Leafs Stanley Cup parade would likely draw a lot more people from outside the GTA, and even outside Ontario.
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  #1962  
Old Posted May 27, 2022, 1:20 AM
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Doubtful, basketball was already tried in many other Canadian cities and was a failure. Hockey will always dominate the majority of Canada sports. I understand you are from TO and believe the world revolves around you and all should fall in line lol. But seriously outside TO basketball isn't that popular. Soccer is growing more then even I thought it would. So maybe one day soccer will be on par with the CFL. But definitely not surpassing hockey. For either soccer or b-ball to take over we'd have to change the demographics of this country in a HUGE way.
Speak for yourself I’d argue basketball is slowly passing Football as the second most popular sport in Winnipeg especially for youth. The culture surrounding the NBA is one of the most powerful and prominent entities in the entire planet. People are really showing their age around there if they don’t see the insane trajectory that basketball has ascended within ALL of Canada in the last decade. Especially because NBA is by far the most social media friendly league and the young adults eat up all the Twitter drama (including myself).

To be more specific Garden City, Maples, Kildonan East, Waverley Heights, and Fort Richmond are all areas in Winnipeg where basketball is not only the most played sport but has the most spectators. Hell even the North End and near St. Vital mall have turned into basketball hotbeds. That’s a large portion of our city to say the least.
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  #1963  
Old Posted May 27, 2022, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek View Post
Speak for yourself I’d argue basketball is slowly passing Football as the second most popular sport in Winnipeg especially for youth. The culture surrounding the NBA is one of the most powerful and prominent entities in the entire planet. People are really showing their age around there if they don’t see the insane trajectory that basketball has ascended within ALL of Canada in the last decade. Especially because NBA is by far the most social media friendly league and the young adults eat up all the Twitter drama (including myself).

To be more specific Garden City, Maples, Kildonan East, Waverley Heights, and Fort Richmond are all areas in Winnipeg where basketball is not only the most played sport but has the most spectators. That’s a large portion of our city to say the least.
Basketball is played by youth way more but tv ratings and interest in fantasy, water cooler talk at the office ect football blows Basketball out of the water.
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  #1964  
Old Posted May 27, 2022, 1:28 AM
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A thread about the NHL coming back to Quebec City is now talking about the Leafs' victory parade.

I am honestly more torn about which is the least likely thing to happen at this juncture, when given a choice between those two options.
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  #1965  
Old Posted May 27, 2022, 1:33 AM
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Basketball is played by youth way more but tv ratings and interest in fantasy, water cooler talk at the office ect football blows Basketball out of the water.
That probably has a lot to do with the simple fact that watching a regular football game is far more important and interesting to watch then for example game 70 of the regular season. Also the fact that football is just way too tough on your body to play for a lot of people so basketball is an easier and more accessible alternative.

But I would agree with your comment.
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  #1966  
Old Posted May 27, 2022, 3:59 AM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
A thread about the NHL coming back to Quebec City is now talking about the Leafs' victory parade.

I am honestly more torn about which is the least likely thing to happen at this juncture, when given a choice between those two options.
I thought it was a fantasy thread when I mentioned the parade lol.
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  #1967  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2022, 5:29 PM
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Some updates regarding the Coyotes and Senators:

Coyotes Approved to Negotiate with Tempe Regarding Arena - The Coyotes have gained approval to negotiate with Tempe regarding the purchase and development of the potential arena site. Their proposal is very comprehensive and seems to look pretty good on paper. They are currently hashing out details with the FAA regarding Phoenix Sky Harbor (their biggest concern right now is having residential units so close to the airport) but it's looking pretty good so far, despite all of the negative press over the past year or so. If they can hash out a deal without any major public concessions (because major public concessions will attract a Goldwater Institute lawsuit, which historically have impeded the construction of venues in Arizona), then I think their future in Arizona is pretty much a guarantee, despite the current nonsense going on with their temporary home at ASU.

The Coyotes released a video of the arena district concept a couple of weeks ago. It's honestly a pretty great concept (especially with the combined hotel/retail district) and would likely draw good crowds if it becomes fully realized. My opinion is that it absolutely kicks the crap out of the built environment around Centre Videotron. It's becoming clear that the entertainment district model is becoming the preferred approach across North America and will be important for keeping Quebec City as a competitive option in the future. Almost all Canadian NHL arenas have an existing or emerging surrounding mixed-use district of some sort (except for Calgary and Ottawa, which are both being worked on) and will likely be an "unofficial" requirement for any potential expansion or relocation in the future.

Video Link


Senators Ownership Likely Remains Stable - With the NHL Board of Governors meeting on Thursday (has already happened since this article was posted), it is likely that the Senators will continue to remain owned by the Melnyk family with no significant changes. Of course, nothing is 100% set in stone, but Melnyk had apparently set up the franchise to remain in the family for generations before his death. Additionally, Gary Bettman has confirmed that the Senators have investigated a downtown rink and may be involved in a Lebreton Flats bid, initiated by Melnyk before he died. Nobody can speak on anything since the NCC is keeping a tight lid on information regarding the process, but I'm sure we will hear more soon.

All in all, the NHL is looking pretty stable right now with recent news. While this can always change, it's looking unlikely that a team will need to relocate in the near future. Quebec may not see a team until the next round of expansion. While NHL 32 just became a reality, NHL 36 may not be that far away, considering other leagues like the NFL are reportedly exploring 40(!) teams, and that the NHL is seeing record revenues of $5.2B in 2021-2022, compared to $4.6B in 2018-2019, despite the general narrative that expansion dilutes league revenues.
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  #1968  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 3:28 AM
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If Quebec City gets a team then why not Halifax both have population over 600k and maritimes want a team they can cheer for
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  #1969  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ivegotaname View Post
If Quebec City gets a team then why not Halifax both have population over 600k and maritimes want a team they can cheer for
The problem is there’s no indication Quebec City is getting a team anytime in the near future because for some reason the NHL will do anything to keep a team in Phoenix alive. I bet a team in the Maritimes has never even been considered by the NHL. The next best destination for a NHL team in Canada besides Quebec is a second team in the GTA or Hamilton. But of course the executives still believe in things like “growing the game” rather then capitalizing on guaranteed markets…

Although if Halifax keeps booming for the next few decades it could be within the realm of possibility one day. I don’t know if it’ll happen in our lifetimes tho.
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  #1970  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 11:27 AM
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If Quebec City gets a team then why not Halifax both have population over 600k and maritimes want a team they can cheer for
Halifax's population is still less than 500,000. Halifax would also need a new arena as well, costing hundreds of millions of dollars. Who would the owner be? The largest billionaires in the region are from NB, not NS.

1) - PREVIOUS NHL FRANCHISE - QC (yes), HFX (no)
2) - NHL READY ARENA - QC (yes), HFX (no)
3) - OWNERSHIP GROUP - QC (yes), HFX (no)
4) - PROVINCIAL SUPPORT - QC (yes), HFX (no)
5) - POPULATION - QC (>800K), HFX (~500K)

'nuff said.

Of course, Halifax is now growing rapidly, and market conditions could change. A future NHL franchise might be possible. Please call back in about 75-80 years..........
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  #1971  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 1:54 PM
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The biggest issue outside of population in both Quebec and Halifax is annual household income. Both places are relatively poor compared to other NHL markets, with the average in both being less than $60,000 after taxes (from 2016 data, 2021 data is not out yet). Halifax is at about $59,000/yr and Quebec City is at about $52,000/yr. It is a big factor in determining whether a team is viable in a given area, and is also impacted by the exchange rate. Viability is a balance between population and incomes. Winnipeg is a small market but it was allowed in because the average household income is relatively high, at around $70,000 after taxes. The path forward for Quebec City is to either create an environment that raises household incomes significantly or get the CMA population to over 1M, at which point the NHL will start considering it more seriously. If they had incomes as high as Winnipeg, they would have a team already. Halifax is both relatively poor and small so it will not be viable as a market for a long time, especially when counting the fact that it lacks an arena. However, we will see how incomes have progressed when the Census 2021 information gets released later this summer and maybe things will look a little different.

Hamilton will almost certainly be the preferred location for an 8th Canadian team once FirstOntario gets renovated by OVG. While slightly smaller than Quebec City, the average household income after taxes is $80,000/yr. Proximity to other higher income CMAs like Kitchener ($79,000/yr), Niagara ($68,000/yr) and London ($65,000/yr) also makes it a better business case than Quebec City, which is relatively geographically isolated as a market. As much as I want to see a team in Quebec City happen, the math just doesn’t look great. The NHL is a business, first and foremost, and they are making decisions within the best interest of their business. Phoenix’s average household income after taxes in CAD is $110,000 so it should be no surprise why they continue to pursue that market.
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  #1972  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek View Post
The next best destination for a NHL team in Canada besides Quebec is a second team in the GTA or Hamilton.o.
I would put QC behind GTA as the best place for Canada's next team, and I would even listen to arguments Hamilton would be ahead of QC as well.
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  #1973  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 2:25 PM
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GTA is definitely the number one destination for the NHL in Canada. But the Leafs will do their damndest to keep another team out.

Hamilton would be second, but same factor applies there.

Then Quebec, then after that it drops off significantly to the places that are highly questionable, e.g. London, K-W, Saskatoon, Halifax, suburban Montreal, etc.
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  #1974  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 4:11 PM
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Correct. Toronto2 and Hamilton are both more interesting markets for the NHL than Quebec City at this stage. I doubt any of them happen any time soon, but that should be the order IMO.

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Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek View Post
The problem is there’s no indication Quebec City is getting a team anytime in the near future because for some reason the NHL will do anything to keep a team in Phoenix alive.
Franchise stability. We've been over this a thousand times.

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Originally Posted by ericmacm View Post
The biggest issue outside of population in both Quebec and Halifax is annual household income. Both places are relatively poor compared to other NHL markets, with the average in both being less than $60,000 after taxes (from 2016 data, 2021 data is not out yet). Halifax is at about $59,000/yr and Quebec City is at about $52,000/yr. It is a big factor in determining whether a team is viable in a given area, and is also impacted by the exchange rate. Viability is a balance between population and incomes. Winnipeg is a small market but it was allowed in because the average household income is relatively high, at around $70,000 after taxes. The path forward for Quebec City is to either create an environment that raises household incomes significantly or get the CMA population to over 1M, at which point the NHL will start considering it more seriously. If they had incomes as high as Winnipeg, they would have a team already. Halifax is both relatively poor and small so it will not be viable as a market for a long time, especially when counting the fact that it lacks an arena. However, we will see how incomes have progressed when the Census 2021 information gets released later this summer and maybe things will look a little different.
Correct. I was reading something the other day about Halifax being the most unaffordable city for people aged 18-34 because average incomes are nowhere close to being enough to cover cost of living. No NHL team in any sort of future at this stage.

Quebec City is both poorer and older than all other Canadian NHL markets.


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Originally Posted by ericmacm View Post
Hamilton will almost certainly be the preferred location for an 8th Canadian team once FirstOntario gets renovated by OVG. While slightly smaller than Quebec City, the average household income after taxes is $80,000/yr. Proximity to other higher income CMAs like Kitchener ($79,000/yr), Niagara ($68,000/yr) and London ($65,000/yr) also makes it a better business case than Quebec City, which is relatively geographically isolated as a market. As much as I want to see a team in Quebec City happen, the math just doesn’t look great. The NHL is a business, first and foremost, and they are making decisions within the best interest of their business. Phoenix’s average household income after taxes in CAD is $110,000 so it should be no surprise why they continue to pursue that market.
The ceiling in Quebec City is so, so much lower than in the GTA or Hamilton, for the reasons you've outlined. Phoenix's combination of average income, growth rate, and demographic makeup make it an easy market for the NHL to stay in regardless of the problems on the ground. The NHL has done very well to place themselves into growth markets (Raleigh, Nashville, Phoenix) and will likely stay in those markets for as long as they can.
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  #1975  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 5:31 PM
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Franchise stability meant absolutely nothing when Gary Buttman pulled teams out of Quebec City and Winnipeg to suit his confederate expansion vision.

I've stopped being a fan of NHL hockey when I realized that our national game was completely usurped by our American overlords. No Stanley Cups for Canadian teams for 29 fucking years now.
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  #1976  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 5:43 PM
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Franchise stability meant absolutely nothing when Gary Buttman pulled teams out of Quebec City and Winnipeg to suit is confederate expansion vision.

I've stopped being a fan of NHL hockey when I realized that our national game was completely usurped by our American overlords. No Stanley Cups for Canadian teams for 29 fucking years now.
Every Canadian team except the Leafs has had a legitimate run at the cup in the past ~15 years, but none of them could close it out.
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  #1977  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 5:45 PM
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Sports are definitely more exciting when teams are simply given trophies based on where they're located, because they deserve it or some such. Why even compete at all really just give a team the trophy every year.
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  #1978  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 6:50 PM
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I don't think anyone is suggesting fixing things to favour geographic regions, but given that the Stanley Cup was originally supposed to be for the "Dominion Hockey Challenge", people can be forgiven for being a bit frustrated that Canadian teams can't seem to win it anymore.

I looked up the other main American leagues and if you consider Canada to be a "region" of the NHL, no other league comes even close to having a part of the league that makes up 23% of its clubs that has had such a long championship drought.

It's probably more than just bad luck.

Clearly, there is something about the NHL's competitive and business model that disadvantages Canadian-based clubs.

Generally speaking, I was a little kid in the 70s, a teen in the 80s and a young adult in the 90s, and in none of those decades were there any complaints about the US domination of the NHL.

Even in 1993 when Montreal won, no one expected it would be the last Canadian win in such a long time, and then Vancouver made the final the following year.

But after that, things have moved more and more out of reach for us.
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  #1979  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 6:55 PM
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It's probably more than just bad luck.

Clearly, there is something about the NHL's competitive and business model that disadvantages Canadian-based clubs.

...

But after that, things have moved more and more out of reach for us.
I don't know how anyone can genuinely think this when the below happens:

2004: Calgary loses in Final
2006: Edmonton loses in Final
2007: Ottawa loses in Final
2011: Vancouver loses in Final
2021: Montreal loses in Final

There's no Grand Conspiracy™ - it's literally bad luck. Victim complex 101.
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  #1980  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2022, 8:28 PM
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I'd love to see both Quebec City and an additional southern Ontario team in the NHL in the future.

Hamilton's renovations of $50 million or so are a good start, but it is not nearly enough to make it NHL-ready. In the renders for the renovations, you can see there is still only one main concourse. You would need an additional concourse for the upper deck. In the description of the renovations, they talk about sprucing up the suites, but I don't think they are nearly enough suites in the current building as it stands. They would need to expand the number significantly. They would also need to build proper club areas and larger club seating areas, ideally 2,000 seats at least. Overall, it would probably require a couple hundred million dollars to bring the Hamilton arena to NHL standards.

Halifax recently spent millions replacing their ice pad and other renovations. This will certainly be the main arena in the city for decades to come.

What Halifax will have to focus on in the near-term is a new permanent outdoor stadium. Their current soccer stadium for the Wanderers is a temporary structure and as far as I understand those types of structures tend to have a 10-year lifespan so the clock is ticking.

Halifax can go in one of two directions in the next 5-7 years:

1. Build a 5-10,000 seat facility for the Canadian Premier League, other soccer events and some community use.

OR

2. Build a 20,000 seat facility for the CFL, Canadian Premier League, football and soccer events, occasional big concert and community use.
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