Great Lakes Cities

[Docere]

Yeah, there's lots of low-income white service workers in Western NY.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

That neighborhood looks neat! Love that huge flag sign, true placemaking.

what's more, chicago's "Paseo Boricua" even has it's own flag.

from wikkpedia:

Paseo Boricua is the first location outside the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico to be granted the right to fly an official "Municipal Flag of Puerto Rico."

source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paseo_Boricua

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by benp

You would be surprised. My sister-in-law from Texas calls Buffalo the place "where white people work" as white working class still dominate lower levels of the workforce, including food and beverage.

I sense that a lot of the obnoxious political activity and Twitter postings of the past 5~ years have come from people in the wealthiest cities, where the people working at gas stations, restaurants, etc., are much more often minorities of some type. Some of these people truthfully do not know that there are tens of millions of "white" Americans working low-wage jobs.

I live in the center of the United States, at a company with 100+ people working in a warehouse as pickers, truck drivers, etc., and there isn't a single Mexican or Puerto Rican person on the payroll. I can only remember 2-3 in the last 10 years here.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I sense that a lot of the obnoxious political activity and Twitter postings of the past 5~ years have come from people in the wealthiest cities, where the people working at gas stations, restaurants, etc., are much more often minorities of some type. Some of these people truthfully do not know that there are tens of millions of "white" Americans working low-wage jobs.

I live in the center of the United States, at a company with 100+ people working in a warehouse as pickers, truck drivers, etc., and there isn't a single Mexican or Puerto Rican person on the payroll. I can only remember 2-3 in the last 10 years here.

Moving from the East Coast to Pittsburgh, one of the most jarring things for me initially was indeed that service work jobs that I had always seen done by Latinos and other immigrants are still pretty heavily white.

[Docere]

Mexican

Rochester 7,864
Buffalo 7,515
Cleveland 32,813
Detroit 141,234
Chicago 1,694,498
Milwaukee 115,009

Puerto Rican

Rochester 54,691
Buffalo 38,557
Cleveland 72,496
Detroit 28,087
Chicago 209,833
Milwaukee 42,962

[Crawford]

Still, though, fewer than 2,000 Mexican-born residents, in a metro of 1 million, which has a not insubstantial Latino population, sounds suspect.

The University of Buffalo, alone, should probably have a few hundred Mexican nationals. It's a very large university, with a broad selection of grad programs. Upper class Latin Americans often attend U.S. universities, and are the largest foreign born university demographic outside of Asians. A lot of major universities are now something like 20%+ international students, and rising. Just seems weird.

And I disagree with some of the comments about Mexicans in middle America. You see people who appear to be Latino and/or speaking Spanish, pretty much everywhere, even in rural backwaters. I don't remember that in decades past. Doesn't mean they're Mexican, but more often than not, they are. Maybe Cincy and Pittsburgh are exceptions, but I find it hard to believe, with their universities alone, you wouldn't have some degree of Latin American presence.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Maybe Cincy and Pittsburgh are exceptions, but I find it hard to believe, with their universities alone, you wouldn't have some degree of Latin American presence.

The Pittsburg and Cincy MSAs have two of the very lowest Latino shares out of the nation's major metro areas.

I just posted this a couple days ago in a different thread:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

here are the 1M+ midwest/rustbelt MSAs ranked by percentage of latinos.


MSA latino population (census 2020):

chicago: 2,239,376 (23.3%)
milwaukee: 182,777 (11.6%)
kansas city: 229,233 (10.5%)
grand rapids: 110,671 (10.2%)
indianapolis: 177,787 (8.4%)
rochester: 88,854 (8.1%)
minneapolis: 242,621 (6.8%)
louisville: 82,964 (6.5%)
cleveland: 133,862 (6.4%)
buffalo: 67,476 (5.8%)
columbus: 110,967 (5.2%)
detroit: 219,953 (5.0%)
cincinnati: 95,073 (4.2%)
st. louis: 106,269 (3.8%)
pittsburgh: 52,920 (2.2%)



nationally, latinos now make up 18.5% of the US population as of 2020. chicago is the only major MSA in the region that is more or less aligned with the national trend.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Still, though, fewer than 2,000 Mexican-born residents, in a metro of 1 million, which has a not insubstantial Latino population, sounds suspect.

The University of Buffalo, alone, should probably have a few hundred Mexican nationals. It's a very large university, with a broad selection of grad programs. Upper class Latin Americans often attend U.S. universities, and are the largest foreign born university demographic outside of Asians. A lot of major universities are now something like 20%+ international students, and rising. Just seems weird.

And I disagree with some of the comments about Mexicans in middle America. You see people who appear to be Latino and/or speaking Spanish, pretty much everywhere, even in rural backwaters. I don't remember that in decades past. Doesn't mean they're Mexican, but more often than not, they are. Maybe Cincy and Pittsburgh are exceptions, but I find it hard to believe, with their universities alone, you wouldn't have some degree of Latin American presence.

Agreed. I worked in a kitchen throughout college in Lansing, in an area with lots of restaurants, and I was one of the very few US citizens working back of the house. One time we had a raid and everyone was deported. My major franchise restaurant held the positions for them until they made their way back. Almost all of them were from Mexico or El Salvador and worked two 40+ hour restaurant jobs back to back, 6 days per week.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Docere

Mexican

Rochester 7,864
Buffalo 7,515
Cleveland 32,813
Detroit 141,234
Chicago 1,694,498
Milwaukee 115,009

Puerto Rican

Rochester 54,691
Buffalo 38,557
Cleveland 72,496
Detroit 28,087
Chicago 209,833
Milwaukee 42,962

I wonder how different those Puerto Rican numbers look from people having Puerto Rican ancestry. I know that there was a relatively large Puerto Rican presence in Detroit around the mid-century, but the general trend was for them to blend into the white/black dichotomy. The ones light enough to be considered white tended to marry other "ethnic" whites like Italians. The darker Puerto Ricans mixed with the black population. I doubt many people of that lineage still living around the Detroit area would even identify themselves as Hispanic today.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And I disagree with some of the comments about Mexicans in middle America. You see people who appear to be Latino and/or speaking Spanish, pretty much everywhere, even in rural backwaters. I don't remember that in decades past. Doesn't mean they're Mexican, but more often than not, they are. Maybe Cincy and Pittsburgh are exceptions, but I find it hard to believe, with their universities alone, you wouldn't have some degree of Latin American presence.

Pittsburgh has a tiny Mexican presence overall. The city proper has 2,713 people of Mexican ancestry, and only 500 of them were born outside the U.S. There are enough Latinos in one neighborhood in the South Hills (Beechview) to support a Mexican grocery, but even here it's only like 10% of the neighborhood's population (if that). Numerically speaking more of the Mexican-Americans live distributed through wealthier parts of the city, suggesting they're people from outside the metro who came to Pittsburgh for school and stuck around (I know one such person, she's the head of the Historic Review Commission now).

I have noticed in the last few years a lot more Latino people in the city than in the past, but I presume they are Central Americans, not Mexicans.

[Crawford]

That's very strange, to me. Mexican-Americans appear so ubiquitous, and such a huge share of the U.S. population, that you'd expect some level of Mexican presence, almost anywhere.

It would be like a metro without black people. Even Portland, the least black major metro, and with no black neighborhoods, has 40,000 black residents in the city proper alone.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Mexican

Rochester 7,864
Buffalo 7,515
Cleveland 32,813
Detroit 141,234
Chicago 1,694,498
Milwaukee 115,009

Puerto Rican

Rochester 54,691
Buffalo 38,557
Cleveland 72,496
Detroit 28,087
Chicago 209,833
Milwaukee 42,962

Well, that's pretty clear evidence that the great PR/Mexican divide goes right through the great lakes region.

Relative ratios of PRs and Mexicans:

Rochester: 7 to 1 PR
Buffalo: 5 to 1 PR
Cleveland: 2 to 1 PR

Detroit: 5 to 1 Mexican
Chicago: 8 to 1 Mexican
Milwaukee: 2.5 to 1 Mexican

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That's very strange, to me. Mexican-Americans appear so ubiquitous, and such a huge share of the U.S. population, that you'd expect some level of Mexican presence, almost anywhere.

It would be like a metro without black people. Even Portland, the least black major metro, and with no black neighborhoods, has 40,000 black residents in the city proper alone.

The argument for why Pittsburgh has no Mexicans I have always heard is the big migration of Mexican-Americans (outside of places they always lived, like Southern California and Texas) began in the 1980s, when the metro was one of the worst performing economically in the country. So many native-born folks were being laid off from the mills that it triggered an exodus outside of the area, and those who stayed behind were all competing for the low-quality service jobs which are usually the entry point for Mexican immigrants.

The local economy improved considerably from the 90s onward, but by that point Mexican immigrants were following migration chains set by relatives and acquaintances. Why move to a city with no Mexican community to speak of when you at least have a cousin who lives in Detroit who can help set you up?

Pittsburgh of course does have immigrants. There's a growing Asian community which skews upscale and is associated with the universities. There's also fairly substantial refugee communities like the Somali Bantu and the Bhutanese. Just not a lot of Latinos - though as I said, it may now be changing, because I do see a lot of (who I presume to be) Central Americans in certain corners of the city now.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Well, that's pretty clear evidence that the great PR/Mexican divide goes right through the great lakes region.

Relative ratios of PRs and Mexicans:

Rochester: 7 to 1 PR
Buffalo: 5 to 1 PR
Cleveland: 2 to 1 PR

Detroit: 5 to 1 Mexican
Chicago: 8 to 1 Mexican
Milwaukee: 2.5 to 1 Mexican

I would think that the PR populations in Roch, Buff, and Clev have been present there for longer periods of time than the Mexican populations have in Det, Chi, and Mil.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I would think that the PR populations in Roch, Buff, and Clev have been present there for longer periods of time than the Mexican populations have in Det, Chi, and Mil.

Probably, though there's almost certainly some degree of NYC-area (or Northeast Corridor) migration to these smaller centers. You go to random towns in Upstate NY, or Central PA, or New England, and you often find these Puerto Rican or Dominican enclaves, which weren't around a few years back.

And at least for Detroit, there's been a sizable Mexican directional since the postwar years, at least. It just probably ballooned in the 80's. Chicago was probably the same, just 10x bigger.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I would think that the PR populations in Roch, Buff, and Clev have been present there for longer periods of time than the Mexican populations have in Det, Chi, and Mil.

Chicago's first Puerto Ricans began trickling in back in the 1930's, not from the island itself, but rather from NYC, with the first major wave coming in the 40s. the local PR community was well established enough by the 50s such that migration straight from the island direct to Chicago became the norm. My Dad's younger brother married one, who came to Chicago direct from PR with her parents as a child back in the '60s.

Mexican immigration in Chicago goes back a bit further, with the first significant wave coming back in the 1910s, with ~20,000 people of Mexican birth/ancestry in the city by 1920. Then the community actually declined a bit during the depression and war years, before picking up massive steam in the '50s and then just snowballing from there into one of the city's biggest ethnic groups.

I'd be a little surprised if Cleveland, Buffalo, and Rochester saw significant PR migration waves prior to 1910, but knowing nothing about the specific history of those groups in those cities, I suppose it's entirely possible.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Cincinnati kind of has a reputation for being weary of outsiders, insular, and provincial. Not sure if that's also true in Pittsburgh, but it might explain why the Latin American demographics are so miniscule in Cincinnati?

Then again, the metro continues to add people so hell if I know? What do the demographics look like in Kenton, Campbell and Boone counties in Kentucky? Warren and Butler counties in Ohio?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Chicago's first Puerto Ricans began trickling in back in the 1930's, not from the island itself, but rather from NYC, with the first major wave coming in the 40s. the local PR community was well established enough by the 50s such that migration straight from the island direct to Chicago became the norm. My Dad's younger brother married one, who came to Chicago direct from PR itself with her parents as a child back in the '60s.

Mexican immigration in Chicago goes back a bit further, with the first significant wave coming back in the 1910s, with ~20,000 people of Mexican birth/ancestry in the city by 1920. Then the community actually declined a bit during the depression and war years, before picking up massive steam in the '50s and then just snowballing from there into one of the city's biggest ethnic groups.

I'd be a little surprised if Cleveland, Buffalo, and Rochester saw significant PR migration waves prior to 1910, but knowing nothing about the specific history of those groups in those cities, I suppose it's entirely possible.

Yeah, I shouldn't have included Chicago in the mix.

I was thinking that most of the PR migration (much from the NYC area) to WNY, NW PA, and NE OH from the postwar era on predates the much more recent Mexican migration northward over the past 20 years... but I was totally forgetting that Chicago had much earlier sizeable Mexican population.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Cincinnati kind of has a reputation for being weary of outsiders, insular, and provincial. Not sure if that's also true in Pittsburgh, but it might explain why the Latin American demographics are so miniscule in Cincinnati?

Then again, the metro continues to add people so hell if I know? What do the demographics look like in Kenton, Campbell and Boone counties in Kentucky? Warren and Butler counties in Ohio?

The biggest concentration of Latinos in the Cincinnati area is in the northern suburbs of Hamilton County, and into Butler County. Springdale is around 15% Hispanic, Forest Park is around 10%, Hamilton 9%, Sharonville 8% etc. Not huge numbers by any stretch, but there's at least a visible presence in that area, with several Mexican grocery stores, bakeries, carnicerias, etc. I have a friend who's a teacher for the Princeton School District, and she said her elementary school is almost half Hispanic kids, many of whom are ESL.

For the City of Cincinnati itself, Lower and East Price Hill have a pretty visible Latino population of mostly Central Americans. You can see some evidence of the community with little corner stores, social service providers, grocers, churches, etc. There's also Carthage, which has a pretty decent Mexican population with more of the same type of corner stores and groceries and what not.

The Hispanic population is pretty low, for sure, but it's been growing quickly. It grew by 50% between 2010 and 2020.

I'm not really sure what explains the river cities of the Midwest/Appalachia having low Hispanic populations. It seems a bit odd that Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Louisville, and St. Louis all have low Hispanic populations, even for midwest standards.

[Centropolis]

yeah, i don’t get it with the river cities, especially St. Louis, located on the former rte. 66 (and current terminus of I-44 from Texas) and a major junction where rail lines from Texas and California come together before heading to Chicago. I’ve mentioned this before but tomales have been a thing in St. Louis diners for 100 years, too.