PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Justin7]

^ Thanks, Nanyika. Seems like a reasonable plan, but will need to see details.

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Yeah underground parking doesn't make any sense at all right there. Just put the parking under the building. I get that they want to include retail but retail ain't exactly popping off that far down Main St.

You should be applauding the developer.

Keeping a basement dry 99.x% percent of the time is not a huge engineering feat even here. If there is a flood coming you move the cars. If a developer is willing to take on this risk we should celebrate.

This would allow access to the river for pedestrians and extend Main St, but you'd prefer a parking lot with a building over it?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Are they fetching well over a million? My guess without checking.

I think so. I saw a listing on Redfin for $1.095MM from what I can remember. I think there were other units even higher.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Trolley Modernization Transit Talk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5E0y84OEj0

I listened to much of this. Very exciting.

Two questions:

1. Is there ANYONE at SEPTA with any design sensibility? I am super excited for these longer, modern trolleys (effectively what other cities would call Light Rail), but good god...can we stop it with the red, white, and blue already? Even in the renderings, the cars look super dated and of the 1980s. If we're tied to that color schematic due to branding, at LEAST make the body of the car 100% red (or blue) and work the white and blue (or red) in through logos and emblems on the body of the car.

2. Is SEPTA really designing the stations by consensus? In the recording, there is a section where Septa Representatives "poll" the participants on what "stations" they like more, and of course the participants pick the boring bus shelter look alike stations (i.e. the "L" configuration). The "K" or "X" configuration is WAY more interesting and design forward.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to get this right. Any design done by consensus ultimately fails.

[reparcsyks]

It’s a foregone conclusion that the modern trolleys will look dated from day one, for the exact reasons you specified. No reason to lose sleep over it or think about it again.

[TempleGuy1000]

SEPTA is conducting a survey of what trolley station design should be chosen: https://planning.septa.org/projects/...tation-design/

You guys should fill it out.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I listened to much of this. Very exciting.

Two questions:

1. Is there ANYONE at SEPTA with any design sensibility? I am super excited for these longer, modern trolleys (effectively what other cities would call Light Rail), but good god...can we stop it with the red, white, and blue already? Even in the renderings, the cars look super dated and of the 1980s. If we're tied to that color schematic due to branding, at LEAST make the body of the car 100% red (or blue) and work the white and blue (or red) in through logos and emblems on the body of the car.

2. Is SEPTA really designing the stations by consensus? In the recording, there is a section where Septa Representatives "poll" the participants on what "stations" they like more, and of course the participants pick the boring bus shelter look alike stations (i.e. the "L" configuration). The "K" or "X" configuration is WAY more interesting and design forward.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to get this right. Any design done by consensus ultimately fails.

i seriously doubt those conceptual renderings represent much of anything in terms of final design. They are just concepts to convey intent.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

i seriously doubt those conceptual renderings represent much of anything in terms of final design. They are just concepts to convey intent.

Are you new here?

If anything the renderings look 7 times better than what it will look like in the future.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

SEPTA is conducting a survey of what trolley station design should be chosen: https://planning.septa.org/projects/...tation-design/

You guys should fill it out.

Done!

Please everyone fill this thing out. Avoid the dull.

[Mikieman]

Spark Manufacturing site indeed is fenced off and parking lot is being dug up, surprised it wasn't in yesterday's CDR?

20220928_094755 by , on Flickr

[Busy Bee]

For those that think those 6-axle trolley diagrams are anything other than illustrative... Well they aren't. Those graphics are nothing more than to show the public what the difference is between the old PCC dimension K-cars and a longer articulated modern tram. The paint sxheme shown is also meaningless. Give Septa some credit. I have no inside scoop but I suspect we will be pleasantly surprised by what they end up with. This isn't 2000 anymore... I don't think you have to worry about the new trolleys looking like those Skoda's or the American copies in DC, Tuscon, etc.

[mcgrath618]

I have an inside scoop, and I can almost promise they won’t look like that. They’ll likely be green.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I have an inside scoop, and I can almost promise they won’t look like that. They’ll likely be green.

Like the old Trolley green? That would not be my first choice ha

[DeltaNerd]

When Septa selects the manufacturer I hope we can see those renders soon in a month or two.

As for the bus revolution
Monday Oct 3 6:30pm, there will be a meeting about the first draft of the new bus routes

Registration link
https://us06web.zoom.us/webinar/regi...T4O-oVf0AaVfPA

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I have an inside scoop, and I can almost promise they won’t look like that. They’ll likely be green.

Like PTC green like the heritage PCC's?


If these modern trolleys in green look half as good as the green trams in Helsinki I will be thrilled:


§

[PHLtoNYC]

I'd vote for Drew Murray, I don't know anything about the other guy.

Republicans have nominated Jim Hasher and Drew Murray for the at-large City Council special elections

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/el...-20220928.html

Philadelphia’s Republican party has nominated Drew Murray, a longtime civic leader in Center City, and Jim Hasher, a real estate agent and bar owner, to fill two vacant City Council at-large seats that will appear on the Nov. 8 ballot.

Republican ward leaders voted unanimously Tuesday night to pick Murray and Hasher, who will face off against Democratic nominees Sharon Vaughn, a longtime City Council staffer, and Jimmy Harrity, a former aide to State Sen. Sharif Street. The winners will serve on Council through January 2024.

Murray and Hasher are facing an uphill battle, given the city’s heavily Democratic electorate. Each said they intend to run for a full term whether they win or lose in November.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by Justin7

^ Thanks, Nanyika. Seems like a reasonable plan, but will need to see details.

You should be applauding the developer.

Keeping a basement dry 99.x% percent of the time is not a huge engineering feat even here. If there is a flood coming you move the cars. If a developer is willing to take on this risk we should celebrate.

This would allow access to the river for pedestrians and extend Main St, but you'd prefer a parking lot with a building over it?

I don’t see why we can’t improve access to the river with a podium building? Why is it either/or? I just don’t really believe they’ll actually be able to keep the water out. This stretch of Main St. was like five feet underwater when Ida came. That retail space is gonna get wrecked every couple of years. That’s why Mad River closed. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no NIMBY, I work in development, I just don’t see the rents supporting that kind of building right here, nor is it a good idea to do underground parking adjacent to the river with the flooding. I’m not even convinced they could lease the retail here in the first place, not to mention how expensive the flood insurance would be. No problem with a podium. I just have a hard time imagining a bank would approve that loan. But if they can convince a bank, then whatever, it’s not my money.

But if you want to know what the market thinks about it, I’ll say that I can’t think of a single residential building this close to the Schuylkill with underground parking in Philadelphia or Conshohocken that’s already been built. Developers can make proposals all day but if a bank won’t give you a loan then it doesn’t matter (unless they’re doing all equity for some reason). But they can try to prove me wrong if they want.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I don’t see why we can’t improve access to the river with a podium building? Why is it either/or? I just don’t really believe they’ll actually be able to keep the water out. This stretch of Main St. was like five feet underwater when Ida came. That retail space is gonna get wrecked every couple of years. That’s why Mad River closed. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no NIMBY, I work in development, I just don’t see the rents supporting that kind of building right here, nor is it a good idea to do underground parking adjacent to the river with the flooding. I’m not even convinced they could lease the retail here in the first place, not to mention how expensive the flood insurance would be. No problem with a podium. I just have a hard time imagining a bank would approve that loan. But if they can convince a bank, then whatever, it’s not my money.

But if you want to know what the market thinks about it, I’ll say that I can’t think of a single residential building this close to the Schuylkill with underground parking in Philadelphia or Conshohocken that’s already been built. Developers can make proposals all day but if a bank won’t give you a loan then it doesn’t matter (unless they’re doing all equity for some reason). But they can try to prove me wrong if they want.

I just don't quite get why you want to proactively move to a worse a design if the developer is willing build something better despite the challenge of this site. I get you think this won't work here, that there won't be demand for the retail spaces and the garage will flood. But... why do you care about that?

A building with a street level garage sucks and makes for a terrible pedestrian experience. As you point out, even if it does suck conceptually, that may be the most prudent way forward for this particular site and if the developer used the excuses you mentioned to push through a street level garage, I feel most would shrug and say "unfortunate but makes sense." But the developer isn't saying that, they're doing something better. Even if they can't fill the retail spaces, I'd certainly rather walk by an empty retail space than a garage.

I just don't get the downside. Unless you're not advocating for a garage podium, but rather just making a prediction about what will ultimately happen here due to the logistics of this site.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I just don't quite get why you want to proactively move to a worse a design if the developer is willing build something better despite the challenge of this site. I get you think this won't work here, that there won't be demand for the retail spaces and the garage will flood. But... why do you care about that?

A building with a street level garage sucks and makes for a terrible pedestrian experience. As you point out, even if it does suck conceptually, that may be the most prudent way forward for this particular site and if the developer used the excuses you mentioned to push through a street level garage, I feel most would shrug and say "unfortunate but makes sense." But the developer isn't saying that, they're doing something better. Even if they can't fill the retail spaces, I'd certainly rather walk by an empty retail space than a garage.

I just don't get the downside. Unless you're not advocating for a garage podium, but rather just making a prediction about what will ultimately happen here due to the logistics of this site.

I'm not advocating for a worse design, if they truly believe this is the best way forward, I won't tell someone they're wrong for believing that, it's just not the conclusion I would reach. Of course it would be a better design from a pedestrian experience, no disagreement there. All I was saying is that my first impression is that they're going to run into real challenges financing that kind of building based on my experience. My opinion is that they're wasting their time pursuing that option because a bank won't approve a loan for it because of the challenges it would face but I'd love to be wrong. As far as I'm aware this hasn't been done anywhere in the Philly region and that's not for no reason. All I was really trying to say is that I won't be surprised if this proposal changes because they're forced to change it when they face those realities. I'm not rooting against them, definitely happy to see something get built here.

[iheartphilly]

^
Wait a sec, isn't the underground storage basin on Venice Island suppose to mitigate the excessive stormwater and flooding issues. It can hold up to 4 million gallon if necessary. Manayunk Brewing Co., in past years have been flooded but because of the construction of this underground tank, it should mitigate all but 100 year storms like Hurricane Ida (1 of the 2 worst in our history). Point is, the proposed project sits near the Manayunk Brewing Co., so all business and residential including new projects in Manayunk should benefit from a reduction in flooding issues except for the most exceptional one. Perhaps, a bank might stomach the risk knowing this fact and flood insurance (due to being in a flood plain) should further mitigate their exposure to any loss.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
Wait a sec, isn't the underground storage basin on Venice Island suppose to mitigate the excessive stormwater and flooding issues. It can hold up to 4 million gallon if necessary. Manayunk Brewing Co., in past years have been flooded but because of the construction of this underground tank, it should mitigate all but 100 year storms like Hurricane Ida (1 of the 2 worst in our history). Point is, the proposed project sits near the Manayunk Brewing Co., so all business and residential including new projects in Manayunk should benefit from a reduction in flooding issues except for the most exceptional one. Perhaps, a bank might stomach the risk knowing this fact and flood insurance (due to being in a flood plain) should further mitigate their exposure to any loss.

The PWD project deals with storm waters flowing into the sewer system. River flooding is another matter entirely on a much larger scale and not so easily mitigated.