The Dad Thread

[Harrison]

Thanks all! I think the timing is pretty good, as I just turned 30 in February and she turns 30 in June. Not too early, not too late in my opinion. I'm just glad we live somewhere where we can afford to have more than a couple of bedrooms - one for the future kid and another for the inlaws/guests, etc.

[esquire]

^ Congrats, Harrison.

30 is pretty well the sweet spot IMO. Looking back on it, I'd say 26-30 is probably the ideal window for starting a family generally speaking, particularly for women based on what women in my life who have had children have told me.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not going through a midlife crisis and am certainly not depressive, but as I slowly approach my mid-50s, retirement and the day that my kids truly fly on their own, I am getting a bit reflective and nostalgic. Thinking of what I've done and haven't done in my life.

One conclusion I've come to is that if I didn't have my kids, there is a good chance I'd be depressive these days.

Because even if I didn't have them, the chances are still pretty slim that I'd have way more money, properties in exotic places, and that I'd be living an amazing Peter Ustinov boulevardier existence. I really doubt that I'd be the VP of the Montreal Canadiens, or the en vogue owner of the coolest chain of hipster cafés in town. I'd probably have the same wife (which is fine), live in the same area, with similar types of friends - though more of them would no doubt be childless.

Essentially the same guy - just without my kids.

This raises a good point, which is that no one who has kids ever really regrets it (or if they do they sure don't admit it!). While on the other hand, many childless people do come to regret not having kids (or, even if they don't have regrets it at least leaves them with a big "what if"). Still, there's obviously some selection bias at play - people who are more inclined to want children are more likely to have them; and those who are less inclined are less likely. I imagine that most people end up more-or-less satisfied with their choice - if they had the luxury of choosing, anyway.

I don't think most of those who opt out of having children are doing so because they expect to be exorbitantly wealthy or live an exotic lifestyle though. At least for me, the appeal of not having children mostly comes down to being able to live your life on your own terms with fewer encumbrances. It might be seen as selfish, but IMO it's no more selfish than having children to leave a legacy.

For what it's worth, I don't have children, and my partner & I are on both on the fence as to whether that's something we want or not. There are definitely compelling reasons - both practical & emotional - on either side. We both turn 33 this year though, so the clock's certainly ticking! Which is kind of scary to think about.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Chris Rock is making waves for all the wrong reasons right now, but back during the height of the pandemic the NY Times had a good interview with him where he observed that, at the end of your life, the people who take care of you and are by your bedside are your spouse (if they're still alive) and your kids. He ends off saying "Enjoy them while you have them. But if you think your friends are your long-term solution to loneliness, you’re an idiot."

He's right of course, but having kids in order to have someone by your side if and when you get old & sick is also probably the wrong reason to have kids. I find this argument gets brought up a lot by those espousing the virtues of being a parent, but you should probably only have kids if you actually really want to raise a child. Otherwise, that's a lot of work to put yourself through for a moment in time that may or may not even happen!

[1overcosc]

I do sometimes worry about the seemingly massive shift away from having kids in our culture. Among the Gen Z'ers it seems to be the norm to not want kids and childless-ness (and even being single/unmarried forever) is increasingly being glorified. We can paper over an aging population with immigration for a while but that's not going to work forever.

[niwell]

I think the Gen Z childless thing is definitely signal boosted by the internet and specifically Reddit. Anecdotally I know of a fair number of people considerably younger than me having kids, and my experience being in a fertility clinic was one of feeling downright old compared to the rest of the people in the waiting room.

If I had to guess for the short term is that it will verge to extremes. You’ll have the staunch child-free types but also more people having kids younger than my peer group. I don’t think there’s as much of a feeling that you need to wait it out so you’ll be financially stable (and then realize oh shit we’re almost 40)- though unfortunately it’s because they don’t think it will happen.

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

This raises a good point, which is that no one who has kids ever really regrets it (or if they do they sure don't admit it!). While on the other hand, many childless people do come to regret not having kids (or, even if they don't have regrets it at least leaves them with a big "what if"). Still, there's obviously some selection bias at play - people who are more inclined to want children are more likely to have them; and those who are less inclined are less likely. I imagine that most people end up more-or-less satisfied with their choice - if they had the luxury of choosing

I definitely *have* had people admit that to me! Usually after a number of beers and more phrases as “well I love my kids but if I could do it over again I’d make a different choice”. Not just ones with babies either. The people who have said this to me have always been those fairly close in personality / worldview so it’s given me pause. Of course the conversation never comes up when sober.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

I definitely *have* had people admit that to me! Usually after a number of beers and more phrases as “well I love my kids but if I could do it over again I’d make a different choice”. Not just ones with babies either. The people who have said this to me have always been those fairly close in personality / worldview so it’s given me pause. Of course the conversation never comes up when sober.

It's not common and I don't know anyone personally who says that, but yes I'd agree you do hear that from time to time. I find these parents with regrets often get played up a lot on social media.

Part of it is likely due to being in an era where we're not supposed to make anyone feel bad about anything and need to practise maximum inclusivity.

Reminds me of a push I've heard to change mother's day to "people who love each other day" so that women who aren't mothers don't feel left out. (Funny I haven't heard the same about father's day, and how such pushes for societal change for some reason disproportionately target women's stuff more than men's.)

Anyway, if we do change mother's day for "people who love each other day", what about people who don't love anyone and aren't loved by anyone? Will they feel left out?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I do sometimes worry about the seemingly massive shift away from having kids in our culture. Among the Gen Z'ers it seems to be the norm to not want kids and childless-ness (and even being single/unmarried forever) is increasingly being glorified. We can paper over an aging population with immigration for a while but that's not going to work forever.

We've seen this trend growing for a while among young people, though a much more common reason for young people saying the might want to remain childless now is a concern about the world their kids would live in: climate and social disruptions. I am hearing that more and more from kids in their late teens and early 20s.

Still, while my kids and their entourage aren't there yet, I have a slightly older cohort I know quite well of young people in their late 20s (my kids' instructors from their activities, that they grew up with as "role models" of sorts), and they seem to be producing babies quite prolifically right now.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Had lots of fun with the six-year old last night. He was playing on the keyboard with rhythms and random notes while I was playing guitar trying to match something to what he had going on. I should have recorded a bit of it for posterity.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I do sometimes worry about the seemingly massive shift away from having kids in our culture. Among the Gen Z'ers it seems to be the norm to not want kids and childless-ness (and even being single/unmarried forever) is increasingly being glorified. We can paper over an aging population with immigration for a while but that's not going to work forever.

The eldest Gen Z'ers are only just entering their late 20s now, while the younger ones are still in high school. They're all still some years away from peak family formation age, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what they're saying at this point - if you had asked me in my early 20s if I wanted kids the answer would have been resounding hell no. But eventually, the biological clock starts ticking and people reach an age where they just start feeling some innate urge to procreate. I don't think that much will ever change.

In the grand scheme of things though, declining fertility rates (as is happening around the world) are a good thing. The current global population is unsustainable, and a gradual population reduction would be in humanity's best long-term interest. It's sure going to make for a weirdly geriatric society in the meantime though.

Originally Posted by Acajack

We've seen this trend growing for a while among young people, though a much more common reason for young people saying the might want to remain childless now is a concern about the world their kids would live in: climate and social disruptions. I am hearing that more and more from kids in their late teens and early 20s.

This also sounds more like the post-hoc rationalization of those who are really too young to even be thinking seriously about kids, and again I can remember saying those exact same things when I was that age.

Amongst my peers who are now actually at the age (late 20s-mid 30s) where they're thinking of starting families though, by far the most common concern or barrier (at least among those who potentially do want children) is money. Between the rising cost of living, housing costs, debt, and career delays/interruptions that we've experienced due to the recession & Covid, Millennials are already living pretty precariously without the added burden of children. Being able to afford a child is increasingly being seen as a luxury, or even status symbol.

It's certainly a top-of-mind issue for me as well - especially having to worry about being able to afford suitable housing - though I do think that if that were the reason I didn't have kids that I'd ultimately regret it. Especially as one's economic situation can change over time.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

This raises a good point, which is that no one who has kids ever really regrets it (or if they do they sure don't admit it!). While on the other hand, many childless people do come to regret not having kids (or, even if they don't have regrets it at least leaves them with a big "what if"). Still, there's obviously some selection bias at play - people who are more inclined to want children are more likely to have them; and those who are less inclined are less likely. I imagine that most people end up more-or-less satisfied with their choice - if they had the luxury of choosing, anyway.

I don't think most of those who opt out of having children are doing so because they expect to be exorbitantly wealthy or live an exotic lifestyle though. At least for me, the appeal of not having children mostly comes down to being able to live your life on your own terms with fewer encumbrances. It might be seen as selfish, but IMO it's no more selfish than having children to leave a legacy.

He's right of course, but having kids in order to have someone by your side if and when you get old & sick is also probably the wrong reason to have kids. I find this argument gets brought up a lot by those espousing the virtues of being a parent, but you should probably only have kids if you actually really want to raise a child. Otherwise, that's a lot of work to put yourself through for a moment in time that may or may not even happen!

Good post, and you crystallize the argument well.

As much as one can argue the potential outcomes and obligations, most people who have kids these days genuinely want them. Which generally has turned out better for everyone involved.

[harls]

It's a good thing that fornicating feels good, or else we'd all be gone.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Good post, and you crystallize the argument well.

As much as one can argue the potential outcomes and obligations, most people who have kids these days genuinely want them. Which generally has turned out better for everyone involved.

I totally agree. I have kids and if I had to do it over again I'd have started sooner. But I totally understand people not wanting to have them, and I respect that choice. There is a great deal of personal sacrifice involved, and I don't think that anyone should be pressured into doing it. Having kids when you don't really want them seems like a recipe for misery for everyone involved.

Let's face it, the world doesn't rely on people in Edmonton to keep procreating prolifically. There are plenty of people in the world, and if our particular corner of it requires more of them, then we can continue opening up the gates to accommodate people from abroad.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Let's face it, the world doesn't rely on people in Edmonton to keep procreating prolifically.

Oh, there's a new Edmonton city motto in there somewhere.

Gotta replace 'City of Champions!' with something more up-to-date.

I won't spoil the thread with the ones that popped to mind right away.

[O-tacular]

Anyone else had the pleasure of covid with young kids under 4? Finally caught the ‘Rona and had zero time to actually recuperate. Thankfully the baby and toddler mainly just have runny noses but today in particular I just wanted to collapse and sleep. We’ve had it for 10 days now and I feel worse than at the beginning. My wife has it worse.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Anyone else had the pleasure of covid with young kids under 4? Finally caught the ‘Rona and had zero time to actually recuperate. Thankfully the baby and toddler mainly just have runny noses but today in particular I just wanted to collapse and sleep. We’ve had it for 10 days now and I feel worse than at the beginning. My wife has it worse.

Yes. The middle kid was 4 when the lockdowns started. The youngest is just 2 as of yesterday. We've all had it at least once during the time period.

Hope you are all feeling better soon.

[O-tacular]

Reaching a new phase. Toddler bit the baby's hand while I was changing him yesterday. It's beginning.

[O-tacular]

Excited for spring and this summer. Much fun ahead including birthdays, playdates, swim lessons and lots of zoo visits. Maybe a trip to Banff. How the other dads doing?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Excited for spring and this summer. Much fun ahead including birthdays, playdates, swim lessons and lots of zoo visits. Maybe a trip to Banff. How the other dads doing?

Yeah, it feels like I'm heading into the first summer since 2019 that isn't compromised in some way (knock on wood). Pretty exciting. My kids are spending a lot more time hanging out with friends which is nice, and the slate of activities is hopping.

I always thought before having kids that I wouldn't overdo it with activities, but honestly, the kids always seem happiest when they have some of that stuff going on. It provides some structure.

[harls]

How are you dads dealing with kids wanting to do nothing but game? I put one of my kids into scouts and the older one into a lifeguard course, just to get them away from screens.

[Nashe]

Man if I had the games of today back in the 80's I'd have grown up a total recluse.
The arcade took enough of my quarters as it was, but I spent a LOT of time outside, at least.