Cities Try to Phase Out Gas Stoves—but Cooks Are Pushing Back

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i've been cooking a bit lately thanks to hello fresh, and we have gas at home. i'd really like to try an induction cooktop though. it's supposed to be able to heat up even more quickly than gas - by causing the cookware to heat itself. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-new...ic-11619104405

As long as the cookware contains ferrous metal.

I'm back to where I started this. Copper, which has the best, most even heat distribution of any common type of pan, doesn't work.

Aluminum, which for a while was very popular in its heavy gauge anodized version, doesn't work.

Hence, I'm not interested in induction.

[mousquet]

I've used induction cooktops for something like 20 years at home and learned how to use them.
Old-school people are still on gas, which is clearly slower.

The problem with induction is that it would get you exposed to unhealthy radiation, but that's a different story.

I'm pretty sure I could heal Steely Dan from his famous pizza addiction even by induction cooking.
For example, I can slowly simmer veggies and chicken breast grilled in olive oil beforehand, in tomato paste + water + a slight touch of balsamic vinegar, with Indian spices and various tasty local stuff on my induction device, I swear it's delicious.
It's nothing hard to do, huh. And Steely would ask for more every day because it has that tomato and Mediterranean touch that he likes.
I can melt cheese, do whatever I want to my induction stuff.

Now I've been kinda worried about radiation supposedly emitted by induction. It is not so much of a practical problem, but might cause damage to one's health indeed.
The induction device in here is ok with European and French safety regulations. I still wonder whether it would be unhealthy or not.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

As long as the cookware contains ferrous metal.

I'm back to where I started this. Copper, which has the best, most even heat distribution of any common type of pan, doesn't work.

Aluminum, which for a while was very popular in its heavy gauge anodized version, doesn't work.

Hence, I'm not interested in induction.

You can use copper pans on an induction stove with an adapter. Basically a ferrous metal plate that goes over the hob and actually heats up. I use a small Bialetti one (made for the purpose) to use my Moka pot on the induction stove in my new apartment.

You lose the quick reaction to changes in temperature that you get with copper, but you lose that with an electric stove anyway. Really you need gas to make the most of copper pans.

[10023]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Also ultimately you have to ask how exactly do gas stoves perform better in some cooking applications even against induction and treat that as a interesting design problem and an opportunity.

I have identified the two main ones, I think.

One is the controls, which is easily fixed. The one in my rental has 4 hobs, buttons to select each one, and then a single set of + and - buttons to change the level. You have to select the hob, then press + or - however many times to change the level, then select the next hob and so on. This is incredibly poor design. There needs to be a physical, raised knob for each individual burner, which would be much faster, more tactile, and less confusing when you’ve got 2-4 different pans on different hobs at once. I suspect that the average Brit prefers not having to clean around the knob to actually cooking well.

The other is the overheating issue. If the pan itself gets too hot, the hob switches off (there is of course no such thing, in practice, as a pan that is too hot if you are searing or stir frying). This could be solved by more insulation between the magnetic inductor and cooking surface (possibly a lot more), but perhaps (probably) that reduces the efficiency of the energy transfer. So that’s a real engineering problem, and likely requires some really robust electronics to be designed, which is likely not economically feasible for consumer appliance manufacturers. Maybe there will be a Dyson of induction hobs (or is already), but it must cost a fortune.

Or there’s a real physics problem with the effect of heat on magnets, and then the reality is these things are good for anything but boiling and simmering.

[mousquet]

Yeah, by the way, of course you need proper cooking tools for your induction stovetop.
Whether it would be any kind of pans or woks, they must be labelled "induction" along with a logo that certifies agreement by the qualified authority (see the related regulations in your country), because their bottoms and materials are specially designed for this use.

Cooking on traditional gas is obviously something different and may be still more convenient.
But I'm fine with my induction thing anyway. I believe it will get better and better.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by ocman

Because the pro-position, which I'm talking about

Because of course there are no white people who cook ethnic foods of their own (which taste better on gas) and the out of touch busy bodies in a handful of progressive local governments represent white people in general.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

Because of course there are no white people who cook ethnic foods of their own (which taste better on gas) and the out of touch busy bodies in a handful of progressive local governments represent white people in general.

Naw--everybody of every ethnicity is woke in the Bay Area (and almost everybody is a foodie). Some of the wokest are Asian but not necessarily Chinese.

Here are the folks to blame in SF and you'll note some of them don't look all that "white":


https://www.google.com/search?q=SF+B...n-zxEiPcdfk52M

[ocman]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I've used induction cooktops for something like 20 years at home and learned how to use them.
Old-school people are still on gas, which is clearly slower.

The problem with induction is that it would get you exposed to unhealthy radiation, but that's a different story.

I'm pretty sure I could heal Steely Dan from his famous pizza addiction even by induction cooking.
For example, I can slowly simmer veggies and chicken breast grilled in olive oil beforehand, in tomato paste + water + a slight touch of balsamic vinegar, with Indian spices and various tasty local stuff on my induction device, I swear it's delicious.
It's nothing hard to do, huh. And Steely would ask for more every day because it has that tomato and Mediterranean touch that he likes.
I can melt cheese, do whatever I want to my induction stuff.

Now I've been kinda worried about radiation supposedly emitted by induction. It is not so much of a practical problem, but might cause damage to one's health indeed.
The induction device in here is ok with European and French safety regulations. I still wonder whether it would be unhealthy or not.

The greatness of induction is being able to get accurate programmable temperatures. It’s the best to use when making pastry. or things cooked on very low heat for long amounts of time. When I worked in the kitchen it was all we used in the pastry section. Best of all, you don’t actually need an induction stovetop, just a countertop in your Paris microapartment.

[sopas ej]

Any bakers here?

I'm not a baker, but I've used both electric ovens and gas ovens. I've used the broilers on both electric and gas appliances---I grew up with electric stoves/ovens and used gas as an adult.

Any opinions? I find them to be equal, with maybe the electric one being better in terms of heat---at least with roasted potatoes. I've made stovetop-to-oven frittatas and baked cookies using both electric and gas.

But I don't consider myself a master cook or baker.

Thoughts?

[aaron38]

There is no scientific rationale for this. So long as we are burning coal and natural gas to produce electricity, then all electric heating produces more C02 emissions than burning the gas for heat directly.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Here are the folks to blame in SF and you'll note some of them don't look all that "white":


https://www.google.com/search?q=SF+B...n-zxEiPcdfk52M

Darn you Scott Wiener!

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Any bakers here?

I'm not a baker, but I've used both electric ovens and gas ovens. I've used the broilers on both electric and gas appliances---I grew up with electric stoves/ovens and used gas as an adult.

Any opinions? I find them to be equal, with maybe the electric one being better in terms of heat---at least with roasted potatoes. I've made stovetop-to-oven frittatas and baked cookies using both electric and gas.

But I don't consider myself a master cook or baker.

Thoughts?

The appliance I've always craved is a "dual fuel" range with a gas cooktop and an electric oven. But I've never been able to have the gas service as posted above.

I think a well-designed electric oven gives more even, better controlled heat and especially since newer high end ones (like the one I just bought) have "convection" built in.

But I can't be convinced gas can be surpassed for the cooktop.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

Darn you Scott Wiener!

Yeah, he's moved on (to the state Senate)--didn't notice it was an old picture. I was mainly looking for a picture of them that wasn't HUGE.

You're sharp-eyed.

Here's the current group (still no more "white"):


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fr...of_Supervisors

[Pedestrian]

Towns Trying to Ban Natural Gas Face Resistance in Their Push for All-Electric Homes
By Katherine Blunt
July 31, 2021 5:30 am ET

Massachusetts is emerging as a key battleground in the U.S. fight over whether to phase out natural gas for home cooking and heating, with fears of unknown costs and unfamiliar technologies fueling much of the opposition to going all-electric.

More towns around Boston are debating measures to block or limit the use of gas in new construction, citing concerns about climate change. The measures have encountered opposition from some home builders, utilities and residents in a state with cold winters, relatively high housing prices and aging pipeline networks in need of pricey repairs.

The Massachusetts debate encapsulates the challenges many states face in pursuing aggressive measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions that may directly impact consumers. The cost of fully electrifying buildings varies widely throughout the country and has ignited debates about who should potentially pay more, or change their habits, in the name of climate progress.

Much of the resistance to electrifying new homes stems from fear of having to heat or cook using technologies such as heat pumps and induction stoves that most have never tried. In New England, most homes are heated with fuel oil or natural gas, and gas or propane is used widely for cooking.

Steve McKenna, a Massachusetts real-estate agent, was hired last year to sell a new, all-electric home in Arlington, a town outside of Boston that is considering gas restrictions. The home initially listed for $1.1 million, but many prospective buyers were uncomfortable with the prospect of facing higher electric bills, Mr. McKenna said. It ultimately sold for about $1 million.

“Here in Arlington, you put a house on the market and in six minutes there are 60 offers on the property,” Mr. McKenna said. “But this one took over two months to sell.”

Major cities, including San Francisco, Seattle, Denver and New York, have enacted or proposed measures to ban or discourage the use of natural gas in new homes and buildings, two years after Berkeley, Calif., passed the first such prohibition in the U.S. in 2019. The efforts have sparked a backlash, prompting some states to make gas bans illegal.

Brookline, just outside of Boston, in 2019 became the first town outside of California to attempt to limit gas use in new buildings. But the state attorney general last year blocked the measure’s implementation after finding it conflicted with state building codes, and thus needed state legislative approval.

Undeterred, Brookline city leaders enacted a new bylaw in June governing special permits for buildings or renovations. Under the bylaw, permits for all-electric buildings would never expire, while those for buildings with gas hookups would expire by 2030 to encourage disconnections.

Four other Massachusetts towns are working to enact similar measures, said Lisa Cunningham, an architect who helped craft Brookline’s bylaw. All would be subject to review by the state attorney general, who will decide whether they would need legislative approval . . . .

Construction costs for new all-electric homes are comparable with those for homes that use gas in many parts of the country, and all-electric homes can be less expensive to operate over time, depending on electricity prices and many other factors. But they tend to be pricier in colder climates that require more powerful heat pumps that can function in subfreezing temperatures. Such systems may require backup and can be costlier to run in the cold because they lose efficiency as temperatures drop.


A study by a research subsidiary of the National Association of Home Builders published earlier this year estimated that building all-electric homes in the colder climates of Denver and Minneapolis may cost at least $11,000 more than ones that use gas.

Research from the Rocky Mountain Institute, a group that backs electrification, found that in Boston, building all-electric homes is competitive with those that use gas because developers can skip the infrastructure needed to support gas hookups and air conditioning systems. It concluded that all-electric homes are only marginally more expensive to operate over time, even in a state like Massachusetts, where retail electricity prices are among the highest in the nation . . . .

Some consumers are wary. Brian Callahan, an Arlington resident who recently purchased a nearby house to flip and sell, said he wouldn’t consider building it to run entirely on electricity, even though he faces a long wait from the local utility for a new gas hookup.

“Natural gas is what sells,” he said. “Unless I’m forced to build an electric house, people don’t want it.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/towns-t...d=hp_lead_pos4

[SFBruin]

I just don't understand the need.

There are so many ways that humans harm the environment. Using gas stoves doesn't seem like a significant one.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

I just don't understand the need.

There are so many ways that humans harm the environment. Using gas stoves doesn't seem like a significant one.

But it's not just stoves. The "movement" is to eliminate gas service to housing units entirely so no gas stoves, no gas heat or A/C, no gas water heating, no gas heating your swimming pool and so on. I don't know but add it all up and it seems significant. The thing is that as long as it doesn't cost a lot more, and apparently it doesn't, most people don't care so much about the heat or water heating and so forth--only about the stove because gas cooking actually is more consistent with the way most good cooks learned to do things.

[SFBruin]

Oh, gotcha. I'm one of those doofuses who only reads the title of threads, and doesn't bother to read the actually linked article.

Anyhow, if cities are moving to remove gas utilities in general, I guess that kind of makes sense.

[harryc]

One advantage of living in the frigid north - nobody's taking away our gas lines.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

Oh, gotcha. I'm one of those doofuses who only reads the title of threads, and doesn't bother to read the actually linked article.

Anyhow, if cities are moving to remove gas utilities in general, I guess that kind of makes sense.

You’re not a doofus, okay?

[SFBruin]

Thanks Montrealiste!