T'su Tina Vote

Originally Posted by ksnaden

Do we have to continue compensating them until the end of time

In all likelyhood yes, as they will never forget all the injustices that have been bestowed on their people, and no amount of money can make up for the bitter past.

[Calgarian]

I thought highway 22 was on crown land.

[koval95]

Originally Posted by Nigel

Sounds like something you would hear on Family Guy. And maybe they don't want to develop that land? Maybe it has some sacred value to it that we don't understand or appreciate.

Development does not equal improvement in every scenario.

i got a little bit pissed off but if it would have some sacred value they wouldnt fuck up their appartements and at least would clean up their mess

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Nigel

They have a right to say no to the offer, for whatever reason they wish. It is their land and no one else and they can do as they please.

And I have a right to point out how stupid and short-sighted they are.

This is a textbook case of where our native peoples are now screwing themselves. The government is coming in with much more than a fair deal, something that will improve their lives tremendously and help move them away from the reserve life, which is just about universally agreed to be one of the worst decisions made in Canadian history.

This isn't "we stole their land and we continue to screw them over" (whoever "we" is, anyway, I've never been involved in any of that). This is a clear cut case of a people acting against their best interests, and will end up making things worse for themselves.

As a Frenchman whose family lost their land and life to the English on two different continents, I've managed to get over what happened centuries ago, and my life is nothing but the better for it. It's time we actually teach some history to all peoples of Canada, so we can stop this fiction that there is something different or special about what happened here.

Anyone who disagrees is free to hop on the next flight to Europe.

Originally Posted by freeweed

And I have a right to point out how stupid and short-sighted they are.

This is a textbook case of where our native peoples are now screwing themselves. The government is coming in with much more than a fair deal, something that will improve their lives tremendously and help move them away from the reserve life, which is just about universally agreed to be one of the worst decisions made in Canadian history.

This isn't "we stole their land and we continue to screw them over" (whoever "we" is, anyway, I've never been involved in any of that). This is a clear cut case of a people acting against their best interests, and will end up making things worse for themselves.

As a Frenchman whose family lost their land and life to the English on two different continents, I've managed to get over what happened centuries ago, and my life is nothing but the better for it. It's time we actually teach some history to all peoples of Canada, so we can stop this fiction that there is something different or special about what happened here.

Anyone who disagrees is free to hop on the next flight to Europe.

Do we know that this is for "their best interests"? Do we know that this money will go to the people of that nation and not just pocketed by the band and associates? Money doesn't always equal improvement.

Originally Posted by koval95

i got a little bit pissed off but if it would have some sacred value they wouldnt fuck up their appartements and at least would clean up their mess

This is some pretty stereotypical opinions on native reserves; they are not all slums. I've seen some nice and well kept reserves. And when was the last time you drove around in any Canadian city or town and saw lawns unmoved, old junk cars lying in the streets and in back yard, dogs and cats running loose, etc. I've seen so much of this in white and asian neighborhoods; natives aren't the only people who can live like pigs.

Oh, and I'm of the belief that we did screw them over and abuse them for hundreds of years, so if they want to screw us over and prevent us from paving over some beautiful land with cement and asphalt to make way for more urban sprawl and pollution that we did impose upon them, I say all the power to them; we deserve to get screwed over by them once in a while.

[koval95]

1111

[greenboy]

Good for them! I think whatever they voted for is obviously the right decision for the band. It's a good lesson that not everything can be bought. And I wouldn't trust Alberta's politicians either. People should be respecting their decision instead of attacking them. It's not very classy people.

Originally Posted by greenboy

Good for them! I think whatever they voted for is obviously the right decision for the band. It's a good lesson that not everything can be bought. And I wouldn't trust Alberta's politicians either. People should be respecting their decision instead of attacking them. It's not very classy people.

EXACTLY

I'm not surprised by the reaction at all; it's very typical of people to throw tantrums when they can't get what they want.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Nigel

Do we know that this is for "their best interests"? Do we know that this money will go to the people of that nation and not just pocketed by the band and associates? Money doesn't always equal improvement.

Well, we know the single biggest negative thing about reserve life - lack of opportunity, leading to depression, leading to substance abuse, leading to suicide. It's been the same story on Canada's reserves for 100+ years now, and everyone knows it and agrees about it. Chiefs hate what it does to their people, the people hate what it does to their children, the rest of the country hates to see an entire race basically spiral continually downwards with no sign of ever recovering. Every generation just gets worse and worse off.

When opportunity knocks on your door, you seize it. But hey, if life on the reserve is golden and they want to continue the status quo, more power to them. It sure sounds like a real fun place whenever you hear a reserve member talk about it.

That being said, you're right in that the money could have been swallowed by the band leaders and the people could have been screwed yet again - which is another reason why things need to change, and change dramatically, before our first nations peoples will ever get out of their (self admitted) terrible situation. Too many of them are completely stuck in the system, and many chiefs use this to their own advantage.

[blinegunn]

Originally Posted by Nigel

In all likelyhood yes, as they will never forget all the injustices that have been bestowed on their people, and no amount of money can make up for the bitter past.

So as a mix race person 1/8 Native Indian 1/8 Irish 1/8 Scottish 1/8 English and 1/2 French Where is my compensation ??????? Hopefully the world can get over this land is mine because the color of my skin or how long i have been here. The past is to look at and learn the future is for change. I believe the reserve system oppresses its band members and keeps them in the 15/16 century and there leaders (most of them) as dictators.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, Teach a man how to fish and he will live for ever"

O ya So does that me the East Indian people that weren't involved in the taking over (wars) of the Native Indian land that live in north America do not have to pay compensation ???????

Originally Posted by blinegunn

So as a mix race person 1/8 Native Indian 1/8 Irish 1/8 Scottish 1/8 English and 1/2 French Where is my compensation ??????? Hopefully the world can get over this land is mine because the color of my skin or how long i have been here. The past is to look at and learn the future is for change. I believe the reserve system oppresses its band members and keeps them in the 15/16 century and there leaders (most of them) as dictators.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, Teach a man how to fish and he will live for ever"

O ya So does that me the East Indian people that weren't involved in the taking over (wars) of the Native Indian land do not have to pay compensation ???????

Tell your native Canadian ancestors who where abused in residential school, raped, exploited, enslaved and have had family and friends murdered by whites over hundereds of years, and nearly wipes out by diseases that Europeans brought over from "the old country" to just "get over it". Maybe you have "gotten over it" but not everyone has.

[WeavedWeb]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Here's an idea, don't build it at all. Are auto movements so great between the extreme SW to the western part of the city to justify $1.5B in expenditure, possible mass expropriation, or disruption to the Weaslehead?

Could an alternative be to improve Glenmore and 14th street and perhaps introduce a portion of the 'ring' lrt network connecting MRC to Chinook? That would alleviate some of the traffic congestion.

Living in the SW, I really think this is the only way to go for now. It would be a waste of money and a waste of time to build the "37th St" option, and would have negative effects on the surrounding communities. Improving the existing roads (Glenmore, 14, Anderson, etc.) would be a good near- to mid-term solution; this option could handle all of the existing traffic in the area. The real trouble now is that Providence etc. on land south of Fish Creek and south of 22x could not be allowed to proceed in the foreseeable future; the high-density communities planned would add too much traffic to the area that existing/improved roads would not be able to handle. In the long term, also, a better option would be needed as growing communities in the southeast produce more traffic that must travel to the west, northwest and southwest areas of the city.

[WeavedWeb]

Tsuu T'ina deal for Calgary ring road dead: Province
Don Braid, Calgary Herald
Published: Wednesday, July 1, 2009

CALGARY - The provincial government says the Tsuu T’ina ring road deal is dead and it’s time to find other solutions after band members voted down the agreement that took four years to negotiate.

“We’re disappointed that this wasn’t approved,” Paul Stanway, Premier Ed Stelmach’s communications director, said Wednesday.

“We felt we negotiated in good faith and it was a fair agreement for everyone. But now we have to move on and work on other options.”

But Peter Manywounds, the band’s chief negotiator, suggested there might still be room for a revised deal the band members would approve.

“We were so close,” he said. “There are some relatively minor things that could probably be resolved to the members’ satisfaction.”

He said issues that troubled members included such things as transit and gravel rights, as well as complete guarantees that the band would receive new land.

Chief Sanford Big Plume, commenting after the 60 per cent vote against the agreement on Tuesday, said “the nation will not enter into this agreement.” He did not say there couldn’t be a revised agreement.

But the province is unlikely to be swayed. The years of negotiation have already cost many millions in legal and consulting fees, as well as staff time.

The rejection is also personally embarrassing for Premier Ed Stelmach, who talked often to Big Plume and put his weight behind the deal.

Talks have continued in one way or another for more than 50 years. This was the closest the band and province have ever come to a legal agreement.

The rejection was shattering for earnest band members like Manywounds, who worked on the project from the start and hoped the deal was done.

“Today I’m just going to sit and look at the beautiful mountains and all the green and think about things,” he said Wednesday.

A final death certificate for the Tsuu T’ina road will immediately move provincial and city focus back to a 37 St SW route, with either a bridge or tunnel across the Weaselhead. That project would itself be controversial for years.

Liberal MLA Kent Hehr immediately attacked the province for “dangling this ring road like a carrot in front of Calgary for years and it’s pretty clear now this road was never going to happen.

“We can’t forget that this was Ed Stelmach’s crew at the negotiation table. Last election, he said he could deliver when clearly he could not.”


Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald

Link

[craner]

Fuck.
Time to move on and get on with building a freeway that is not on Native land. They have said no and that is their right - I am truly surprised though.

[Jimby]

Maybe in retrospect we'll see that they have done us a huge favour by voting no. This freeway would have encouraged more people to live south of Fish Creek which would mean more of the same old sprawl.
We should improve the existing road network which is already so extensive it can't all be plowed in time and maintained properly in winter.

[KrisYYC]

Originally Posted by Nigel

In all likelyhood yes, as they will never forget all the injustices that have been bestowed on their people, and no amount of money can make up for the bitter past.

Every group of people or culture has endured injustices and pain at some point in history.

The Irish, Jewish, Russians.... etc. etc.

I think Italy should be compensating me. My family tree originates in the areas of France that were invaded by the Roman empire around 52BC.

I will never forget that.

[vid]

How dare they not let us build a freeway through their land! We offered them money!!! We are entitled to our entitlements!

[Calgarian]

This really is a huge blow to the SW, half the communities built there were under the assumption that they would get a freeway, as much as we seem to be aginst sprawl and freeways, this really is a necessity, MacLeod trail, Elbow and 14th can't handle all the traffic. I think there should be a study about making 37th a freeway, I don't know how it can work though.

[vid]

Funny. Thunder Bay's freeways were built under the assumption we would get a city.