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  #221  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2023, 5:38 PM
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If it's not curved glass, I think it would need a significant redesign to accomplish that change.

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  #222  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2023, 8:33 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim View Post
Where is the flat glass? All of the curves are curved glass in the renderings. Have you seen something to suggest they’ll use all flat glass?
I think it was a hypothetical comment about a bait & switch, which is common.

But yea, I think we can safety say this project will feature curved glass.
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  #223  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2023, 3:55 PM
steve_phl steve_phl is offline
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Taken 3/11:

IMG_7465 by Stephen Henry, on Flickr
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  #224  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Now that's interesting.
IS the project continued to 23rd St?
It should be.
A grand 2 level lobby that also connects 23rd St to JFK is my hope.
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  #225  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2023, 11:11 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
I think it was a hypothetical comment about a bait & switch, which is common.

But yea, I think we can safety say this project will feature curved glass.
Like I said, and I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt this will have more than a few token pieces of curved glass, if that. Why? Because one, I don't think it's called out as such, and since curved glass is such a big deal, I think the architects and developer would be making a point of mentioning it. And two, just a couple years ago I was reading a trade rag and it was mentioned that the cost of curved insulated glass panels was 10 times the cost of flat panels and that was at the factory. I took that to mean that shipping and installation costs would also be higher. And lets face it, in general, better design/more costly design (the two things are different!) especially on the exterior, doesn't bring higher rents or larger selling prices here in Philly.

I expect at best the metal horizontal bands might be true curves with a number of flat panels butted up against each other with some hope that it will look sortof curved. Like how flat bricks can be used in a curved wall. On gentle curves they are fine, but on tight curves, at least to my eye, they look like a mistake.

Although PMC has tried to up their game alittle, they are still known for lack of quality control then putting out top end buildings. But, they are very successful in what they do, and CC would be worse off without them.
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  #226  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 4:04 AM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Like I said, and I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt this will have more than a few token pieces of curved glass, if that. Why? Because one, I don't think it's called out as such, and since curved glass is such a big deal, I think the architects and developer would be making a point of mentioning it. And two, just a couple years ago I was reading a trade rag and it was mentioned that the cost of curved insulated glass panels was 10 times the cost of flat panels and that was at the factory. I took that to mean that shipping and installation costs would also be higher. And lets face it, in general, better design/more costly design (the two things are different!) especially on the exterior, doesn't bring higher rents or larger selling prices here in Philly.

I expect at best the metal horizontal bands might be true curves with a number of flat panels butted up against each other with some hope that it will look sortof curved. Like how flat bricks can be used in a curved wall. On gentle curves they are fine, but on tight curves, at least to my eye, they look like a mistake.

Although PMC has tried to up their game alittle, they are still known for lack of quality control then putting out top end buildings. But, they are very successful in what they do, and CC would be worse off without them.
I think this design would be fundamentally impossible without using curved glass. Unless we see a redesign I have no reason to think it won’t be used. At this point it doesn’t seem like we’ll have to wait very long to find out.
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  #227  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Like I said, and I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt this will have more than a few token pieces of curved glass, if that. Why? Because one, I don't think it's called out as such, and since curved glass is such a big deal, I think the architects and developer would be making a point of mentioning it. And two, just a couple years ago I was reading a trade rag and it was mentioned that the cost of curved insulated glass panels was 10 times the cost of flat panels and that was at the factory. I took that to mean that shipping and installation costs would also be higher. And lets face it, in general, better design/more costly design (the two things are different!) especially on the exterior, doesn't bring higher rents or larger selling prices here in Philly.

I expect at best the metal horizontal bands might be true curves with a number of flat panels butted up against each other with some hope that it will look sortof curved. Like how flat bricks can be used in a curved wall. On gentle curves they are fine, but on tight curves, at least to my eye, they look like a mistake.

Although PMC has tried to up their game alittle, they are still known for lack of quality control then putting out top end buildings. But, they are very successful in what they do, and CC would be worse off without them.
Wow - I wouldn't have guessed the cost differential would be of that magnitude. One thing that can help with this cost issue is that there are a finite number of panels that would be curved. It is such an extreme curve in the edges that 80%+ of the overall building's window panels would actually still be flat.

But I agree - this work site is ripping with action, so we should find out soon.
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  #228  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 2:07 PM
chimpskibot chimpskibot is offline
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Not trying to push this conversation forward, but the available floorplans show curved floorplates. This isn't some 5-over-1 build where they change the cladding at the last minute to save a few $$. This is a curtain wall building they have to build to spec.
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  #229  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Just to further complicate this discussion of the glass, on close examination of these renderings on the building's website--and especially the bottom two renderings--it appears to me that they may be using narrow strips of flat glass strategically angled on a curved floor plate to make them appear to be a single curved sheet of glass. This seems to be apparent when zooming in on the renderings and, again, especially the bottom two:

http://2301jfk.com/the-building/

But as has already been said, we'll find out soon enough.
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  #230  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 5:50 PM
Jonathan Washington Jonathan Washington is offline
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The building is only 22 stories because of the cost of the curved glass. It will have curved glass. The rendering on the website doesn't look like it. I can see why its concerning.
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Last edited by Jonathan Washington; Mar 22, 2023 at 6:54 PM.
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  #231  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 7:21 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Definitely looks like they switched out the curved glass.

Before:



After:



Edit: And removed / changed balconies.
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  #232  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 8:00 PM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
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That doesn't surprise me as it's no longer an office building. Making it look like a trophy building was probably more for attracting commercial tenants.
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  #233  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 8:09 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
Definitely looks like they switched out the curved glass.

Before:



After:



Edit: And removed / changed balconies.
Yea, that definitely looks like small non-curved panels that give off a curved look.

But if the cost of curved glass is 10x more, than it is likely too cost prohibitive for Philadelphia.

Bummer, but still a very nice looking building. The Murano used straight panels and it turned out well.
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  #234  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimpskibot View Post
Not trying to push this conversation forward, but the available floorplans show curved floorplates. This isn't some 5-over-1 build where they change the cladding at the last minute to save a few $$. This is a curtain wall building they have to build to spec.
CDR renderings aren't gospel. There are still changes that can and do take place after the final public comment. I'm processing change orders monthly for things already under construction. You do not need to have everything bought out to start construction. A change like this does not violate the spirit of the public approvals and would not require going back to the City for re-approval. Yes it has to be built to spec, but that doesn't have to be finalized to get a building permit. Either way, this doesn't ruin it for me, this is still a great building.
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  #235  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2023, 11:11 PM
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Fantastic catch, I'm surprised my eagle eye didn't see that. Honestly I'm not that bothered by the slight change, I'm still as excited to see this rise
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  #236  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 4:36 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat View Post
CDR renderings aren't gospel. There are still changes that can and do take place after the final public comment. I'm processing change orders monthly for things already under construction. You do not need to have everything bought out to start construction. A change like this does not violate the spirit of the public approvals and would not require going back to the City for re-approval. Yes it has to be built to spec, but that doesn't have to be finalized to get a building permit. Either way, this doesn't ruin it for me, this is still a great building.
You're right, the City permit process could care less whether its curved glass or not. Just remember that the drawings make things look as good as possible. In reality my guess is that each one of those flat panels will be a metal frame around 2" wide, so when one butts up against the next one there will be 4"+- of metal.

With curved glass this would have been a very sharp building. Without, well IMO, the glass will look cheap. I hope this doesn't take away too much from the overall building.

My understanding is that the cost goes wild because with insulated glass each individual panel is made up of two panes of glass with slightly different radius, that have to held to tight tolerances to fit into the small metal frame that keeps the two pieces of glass separated. This creates an air tight seal. When you see a window with cloudy glass that shouldn't be that way, its often because this seal has failed. Not too common these days, but 20 years ago it was a real hassle.

Curved glass used to be made by reheating a piece of glass to just a certain temperature then draping it over some type of form where it had to cool. So each different radius had to have its own form. Too hot and the glass could flow and not hold its uniform thickness, too cool and it wouldn't drape. The thickness is important to fit into the small frame that creates insulated glass (IG). But for all I know, the process could have been changed, been computerized.

Apple's new headquarters building has huge slightly curved glass going around the inside and outside of the donut. All the fuzz there was that Jobs and Foster, the architect, wanted pieces of glass just as large as possible.

There's reasons why we don't see something that looks as sharp as curved glass. If it was just a little more expensive, I'm sure it would be more common. I think there might be some curved glass on the PSFS building, but that's all I can think of. Something to keep your eyes open to try to spot.
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  #237  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2023, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
You're right, the City permit process could care less whether its curved glass or not. Just remember that the drawings make things look as good as possible. In reality my guess is that each one of those flat panels will be a metal frame around 2" wide, so when one butts up against the next one there will be 4"+- of metal.

With curved glass this would have been a very sharp building. Without, well IMO, the glass will look cheap. I hope this doesn't take away too much from the overall building.

My understanding is that the cost goes wild because with insulated glass each individual panel is made up of two panes of glass with slightly different radius, that have to held to tight tolerances to fit into the small metal frame that keeps the two pieces of glass separated. This creates an air tight seal. When you see a window with cloudy glass that shouldn't be that way, its often because this seal has failed. Not too common these days, but 20 years ago it was a real hassle.

Curved glass used to be made by reheating a piece of glass to just a certain temperature then draping it over some type of form where it had to cool. So each different radius had to have its own form. Too hot and the glass could flow and not hold its uniform thickness, too cool and it wouldn't drape. The thickness is important to fit into the small frame that creates insulated glass (IG). But for all I know, the process could have been changed, been computerized.

Apple's new headquarters building has huge slightly curved glass going around the inside and outside of the donut. All the fuzz there was that Jobs and Foster, the architect, wanted pieces of glass just as large as possible.

There's reasons why we don't see something that looks as sharp as curved glass. If it was just a little more expensive, I'm sure it would be more common. I think there might be some curved glass on the PSFS building, but that's all I can think of. Something to keep your eyes open to try to spot.
Sure-customization makes the cost go up, especially every time they need to make a piece with different dimensions.

Also other factors include quality of materials to make the glass.

But in terms of residential glass windows failing today, it's more of a function of time when it fails. Mine after 15 years failed, but they were covered under warranty. The seals that hold the argon gas between the panes failed and you can see the etching on the inside panes. Mine were wavy with orange, rusty hues. Had half of them replaced. But I think in a skyscraper set-up, the glass not only serves as a temperature insulation but also sound insulation. The more layers of glass and the greater the thickness, the better the quality but the higher the costs too.
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  #238  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2023, 12:51 PM
TempleGuy1000 TempleGuy1000 is offline
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Good interview in the business journal

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...velopment.html

Quote:
At 2301 John F. Kennedy Blvd., the company is developing a 23-story tower that will add 287 apartments and is planned to be completed next year. A 115-unit building is set to wrap up later this spring near the corner of 23rd and Cherry streets. PMC is also converting an office building at 1422 Chestnut St. into 85 apartments to be completed in a year.
and the more interesting tidbit:
Quote:
We’re building 2301 John F. Kennedy Blvd. and we own the air rights over the train tracks between North 20th and North 21st streets, and North 21st and North 22nd streets. We could deck over the tracks and do what they did in New York, what they did at Hudson Yards, and build on top over the tracks. We could build a podium between 20th and 22nd streets and put buildings on that podium, which would really finish that part of town.
A big tower really would be the perfect end cap for west market over the train tracks
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  #239  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2023, 1:56 PM
thoughtcriminal thoughtcriminal is offline
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
Good interview in the business journal

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...velopment.html



and the more interesting tidbit:


A big tower really would be the perfect end cap for west market over the train tracks
I was just going to post this, you beat me to it.
The one thing about decking over the train tracks, though (and I worked on the Hudson Yards project), is that the construction costs are about the same as they are in New York, but the ROI is much less in Philly. So unless there is a way to build the buildings such that they cost significantly less (like with prefabrication or some other novel method that shortens the schedule), I think it is unlikely that it will be feasible, unfortunately. I hope I'm wrong about that though. A mixed use development might soften the blow a bit, or maybe if there is a significant life sciences component to it, but in general it will be a tough sell.
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  #240  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2023, 2:17 PM
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IDK, I still see a very nice curved building. The changes to the balconies seems trivial to me at least.
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