HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #8901  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:37 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is offline
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 8,748
Winnipegger, obviously we are thinking similarly at the same time. I have to learn to type faster.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8902  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:49 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
^ That's why I chortle when people suggest turning Osborne Village into a ped mall or making it a woonerf or whatever. It's a critical commuting route, you couldn't do that without doubling the capacity of Donald/Midtown Bridge and maybe expanding the Mayfair/Stradbrook connection to Main.

It's the same thing with Portage, maybe you can knock out one lane to accommodate RT if and when that ever happens, but that's it. That capacity is vital.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8903  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:00 PM
BKB BKB is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
^ That's why I chortle when people suggest turning Osborne Village into a ped mall or making it a woonerf or whatever. It's a critical commuting route, you couldn't do that without doubling the capacity of Donald/Midtown Bridge and maybe expanding the Mayfair/Stradbrook connection to Main.

It's the same thing with Portage, maybe you can knock out one lane to accommodate RT if and when that ever happens, but that's it. That capacity is vital.
Portage at the Empress underpass was two lanes (sometimes one) in either direction for almost two years. We can transform these stroads, your commute to St. Vital just might take five minutes longer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8904  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:13 PM
Coil Coil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 26
^ Agreed, I don't think the prospect of reducing traffic through Osborne is laughable at all. It's widely accepted that adding road capacity increases the number of cars on the road*. I think it's likelier than not that the inverse is also true; that reducing capacity is a way to make people consider other methods of transportation, the trick is to make sure those are available.

I mean, the idea that Winnipeg is maxed out on traffic capacity is actually kind of crazy. You can drive into and out of downtown at 9AM or 5PM and it's essentially smooth sailing. This doesn't hold all the time but I'd say the only time you get traffic jams even nearly approaching other major cities is during Jets games.

* https://ncst.ucdavis.edu/research-pr...fic-congestion
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8905  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:19 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by BKB View Post
Portage at the Empress underpass was two lanes (sometimes one) in either direction for almost two years. We can transform these stroads, your commute to St. Vital just might take five minutes longer.
Luckily my daily commute is but a memory.

As Biff said, if there were some other modes like RT and expressways available then maybe you could road diet some of the arterials. But you show me the city purposely choking off commuting routes in the absence of a viable alternative, and I'll show you a mayoral candidate who will get elected on a promise to undo it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8906  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:19 PM
cheswick's Avatar
cheswick cheswick is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Kildonan
Posts: 2,765
I haven't spent a lot of time in other cities so don't know how prevalent this is, but in Montreal there are a number of bridges and highways that change lane directions based on time of day. So a lane will be towards the downtown in the morning, then by the afternoon it changes direction to be leaving downtown.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8907  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:46 PM
GreyGarden GreyGarden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 761
I suspect Winnipegger and Biff are right (I’ve come to hold their posts in high regard). That being said, it is a very depressing thought that Winnipeg is kind of stuck with Portage, Osborne and Pembina. I don’t have much hope in ever seeing Pembina become an “urban” street in my lifetime, and frankly I don’t really care because there is such a long way to go in the inner city first. But it would be really nice to see Portage and Osborne be brought more in line with what we’re seeing in other cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8908  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:49 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyGarden View Post
I suspect Winnipegger and Biff are right (I’ve come to hold their posts in high regard). That being said, it is a very depressing thought that Winnipeg is kind of stuck with Portage, Osborne and Pembina. I don’t have much hope in ever seeing Pembina become an “urban” street in my lifetime, and frankly I don’t really care because there is such a long way to go in the inner city first. But it would be really nice to see Portage and Osborne be brought more in line with what we’re seeing in other cities.
Exactly that. It's not all bad news just because Pembina and Portage are doomed to be stroads. There are plenty of non-critical commuting routes with tons of room for improvement. Even Portage/Main/Pembina could be much better than they are without necessarily having to resort to cutting their traffic capacity in half. The Arc is a step in that direction, which is why I consider it a good project.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8909  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:55 PM
wags_in_the_peg's Avatar
wags_in_the_peg wags_in_the_peg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 3,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
I haven't spent a lot of time in other cities so don't know how prevalent this is, but in Montreal there are a number of bridges and highways that change lane directions based on time of day. So a lane will be towards the downtown in the morning, then by the afternoon it changes direction to be leaving downtown.
I'v ebeen to Tilburg, Netherlands many times and around their "town square", they have steel bollards that come up blocking traffic, except during peak rush hours, which being a small town is never that bad. otherwise it's walking area with shops, etc. pretty neat concept that would be great in many areas of the city
__________________
just an ordinary Prairie Boy who loves to be in the loop on what is going on
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8910  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 9:10 PM
OTA in Winnipeg's Avatar
OTA in Winnipeg OTA in Winnipeg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Silver Heights
Posts: 1,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by BKB View Post
Portage at the Empress underpass was two lanes (sometimes one) in either direction for almost two years. We can transform these stroads, your commute to St. Vital just might take five minutes longer.
By the time you get to the underpass traffic has moved off down Osborne and Salter, Sherbrook to Notre Dame, Maryland to Academy/Stafford, Wolseley, West End, Wall Street. It's thinned out quite a bit by then,
__________________
Fill downtown with people in all kinds of housing. Any way possible.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8911  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 10:34 PM
Sheepish Sheepish is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 183
I restate...Michigan Ave is the example. 8 Lanes. Very heavy traffic. A very long thoroughfare. Sure, there are alternative N/S arteries (like Lakeshore Dr), but Michigan is heavily traveled. And it is a major transit bus route. Still, lots of shopping. Lots of food options. Loads of residential. And people friendly. Portage Ave just needs the attention for 10 blocks. There are already great anchors at Portage and Main, Canada Life, Hydro, Investors. There are two hotels. With things getting worse, creative thought and focused action are required.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8912  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 12:19 AM
thebasketballgeek's Avatar
thebasketballgeek thebasketballgeek is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Rimouski, Québec
Posts: 1,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
Except Detroit has massive interstates boarding 3 sides of their downtown so ease of access for vehicle traffic is barely infringed upon by narrowing Woodward avenue.

Contrast that to Winnipeg, where Portage Avenue and Main Street are probably responsible for handling 50% of traffic in, out, and throughout downtown - eliminating one or multiple lanes from Portage would substantially increase congestion everywhere else and lead to an increase in commute times. And before people say "lol just take the bus", you have to consider how adamant Canadians are about prying cars from their cold dead fingers, and replacing two lanes on Portage with BRT isn't going to substantially increase the attractiveness of transit nearly enough to offset the increase in car congestion.
That seems to me the culture around cars needs to change substantially in Canada then. In Winnipeg transportation makes up 50% of our cities emissions. 33% from residential vehicles alone. There’s a lot of people driving cars that have absolutely no need too. I get that climate change isn’t a very important topic in this forum, but we need to critically analyze what effects our current lifestyles have on the planet. I understand that the economy is so important, but the way that our city has been designed is causing it to go broke. It’s important to consider that transit while being a public service can generate a profit if it is used well enough without even considering it’s latent economic generation. A road will never turn a profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
It's easy for American cities that have three or four high capacity freeways running around the perimeter of downtown to change one or two stroads to something more pedestrian and transit friendly. It's a lot harder for Canadian cities like Winnipeg, where those one or two stroads carry the bulk of traffic, to do the same thing without severe consequences; consequences that might be quite harmful in the short run no matter how much you hate cars.
What exactly are these “severe consequences” you mean? I think a severe consequence for Winnipeg right now is young people leaving for cities that are more walkable and have better public transit. With so many options for Canadians to move around the world it’s very easy for me to leave Winnipeg as soon as I graduate. If we are so begrudgingly opposed to providing the basic services that most cities provide then there really is no point in staying.

Of course it’ll be harmful in the short run because change is really hard. But in the long term the city would see a lot more benefits if we went back to the drawing board.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8913  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 12:38 AM
zalf zalf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 664
I don't recall if it was NotJustBikes or Strong Towns, but one of them said something to the effect of "apart from a handful of enthusiasts, there aren't any 'car people' or 'bike people' or 'transit people'. The vast majority just want to get where they're going in the most convenient manner possible." Winnipeg, like a lot of other cities, has made the private, generally single-occupancy car, the most convenient way of getting just about anywhere. That's partly by taking on pro-car projects like widening Kenaston, and also by kneecapping alternatives like unreliable transit schedules or dumping road snow on sidewalks.

Waiting for a culture change or for people to choose be better than than are is futile. People in aggregate are like a gas - they take the shape of their container. But that doesn't mean a handful of focused individuals can't try to alter the shape of that container.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8914  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 1:56 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is offline
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 8,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheepish View Post
I restate...Michigan Ave is the example. 8 Lanes. Very heavy traffic. A very long thoroughfare. Sure, there are alternative N/S arteries (like Lakeshore Dr), but Michigan is heavily traveled. And it is a major transit bus route. Still, lots of shopping. Lots of food options. Loads of residential. And people friendly. Portage Ave just needs the attention for 10 blocks. There are already great anchors at Portage and Main, Canada Life, Hydro, Investors. There are two hotels. With things getting worse, creative thought and focused action are required.
Michigan Ave is a great street. I have been many times and agree that it would be awesome if Portage could be modeled after it. Unfortunately there are some vast differences. It is not used as a main thorough-fare as Portage is. As you mentioned, all of the through traffic will use either Lakeshore or I90. Another thing unique to Chicago is the underground that takes delivery trucks off the main streets.....but the biggest difference between the two is the neighborhood around them. The real estate around Michigan Ave has to be some of the highest in Chicago. Not so much in the area around Portage. That and the fact that Chicago has over 9m people and has a huge tourism industry.

I would think if we built up the area around Broadway (Main-Osborne) with 15 to 20 high-rise buildings (10-15 storeys), convert a couple of the existing office buildings to residential you could end up with a neighborhood that could emulate Michigan Ave. To me Broadway has the bones and feel like Michigan Ave.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8915  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 2:19 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
At one point when Eaton's and The Bay were up and running and dominating retail activity in Winnipeg, Portage Avenue could have been said to be a smaller scale Michigan Avenue. But that hasn't been the case for decades, at least.

Let's face it, capital has abandoned Portage Avenue. What has been built on Portage Avenue since the 80s with exclusively private funds? 201 Portage and One Canada Centre come to mind, but after that the list dries up in a hurry. Centrepoint? MEC? Dollarama?

We are at the point where capital is more likely to give away its remaining holdings on Portage and pretend it's an act of generosity, than it is to actually develop anything there. I'm not sure that knocking out traffic lanes to make way for trams or bikes is going to do anything at this point... it would be like putting a Hello Kitty bandaid on someone hemorrhaging massive amounts of blood.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything to try and improve Portage, I would just suggest keeping expectations in check.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8916  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 2:46 PM
anthonyk anthonyk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: SE Manitoba
Posts: 248
This week I am in Brampton for the first time, and it is making me feel bad for complaining about "sprawl" in Winnipeg. The sprawl here is ridiculous, and the housing prices are too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8917  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 2:49 PM
GreyGarden GreyGarden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 761
I had always hoped that if we improved Portage Ave between Polo Park and P&M, investment along the street would be more attractive. Further, I hope that if we improved Portage by adding some more proper intersections, trees, transit lanes and nicer sidewalks, the prosperity and wealth in Wolseley would begin to seep over into the West End.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8918  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 3:05 PM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 713
I think the thing a lot of us are afraid to admit is that downtown recovery and revitalization, including improving Portage, isn't under the control of any one authority and it takes decades and steady coordination across governments, private sector, and citizens, for tangible improvement to be made. There isn't some magical policy (well, maybe land value tax on surface lots) that is going to fix everything.

I think we, as a City, have this idea that if only the right plan in a shiny PDF form would be published, or one of our numbskull politicians would make a good decision for once, or the right policy adopted by city council, or a large enough basket of funding would be handed out by the Province, or if True North would build just one more tower, or if Portage Place would be turned into affordable housing, or if we'd just add more bike lanes, that everything would finally be fixed and people would flood downtown at all hours of the day.

I think that our hopes and dreams for downtown need to be constrained by reality.

1) Inner-city poverty: We have a lot of deep-rooted, historical poverty and addictions issues in neighborhoods that border our downtown. These issues stem from the abuse of Indigenous peoples and the effects of colonialism, but unfortunately have no easy answer. No blank cheque, no amount of more police officers or cadets, nor army of addictions councilors or social workers is going to solve the issues in Winnipeg's north end over night. People will say "we must address poverty!" until they are blue in the face without presenting a viable strategy to actually do so. The Liberal CCB program reform was an excellent start, but more resources both for prevention and response, especially at a provincial level, are needed. Until then, the effects of poverty from the north end will continually bleed into downtown, giving it a reputation for being grimy and unsafe. Every other Canadian city has some degree of poverty and homelessness, but what makes Winnipeg unique is the high concentration of poverty in a single area of our city, and that single area just so happens to border our downtown.

2) Money: Winnipeggers hate property tax, which is sorely needed to fix existing infrastructure and build new stuff downtown in the absence of an impact fee. It's a real headscratcher that Winnipeggers voted in the mayoral candidate who promised the highest taxes last year, so I'm optimistic about that. But even the 3.5% tax hike pales in comparison to Manitoba's 7.9% inflation rate last year - city services (wages, construction, materials) are also subject to inflationary pressures. Cities like Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal regularly hand out property tax increases in the range of 4% to 9% to fund the programs we need, with little resistance (CBC comment section doesn't count). Plus these cities have area charges which allow growing suburbs to fund their own pieces of infrastructure, leaving more of the general tax dollars for inner-city revitalization, a luxury Winnipeg doesn't have. Without these things, the municipality will have a difficult time keeping downtown assets in good condition, which only contributes to the post-apocalyptic look we've got going there.

3) Transit: Our transportation woes are not easy to solve. Yes, every city struggles with this. But as we've all discussed, our main roads downtown (Portage and Main) are a blight to urban, pedestrian friendly development, but also serve the bulk of downtown and cross-town traffic. Taking steps to fix that isn't easy and will come with high political and citizen resistance. You can talk about mode shift until you are blue in the face, and most people will just laugh at you. Transit's plan to start with making rapid transit in the downtown area is a good step, but shifting Winnipegger's preferences from car to bus is going to be difficult, and more likely influenced by market forces (cost of car ownership/gas/parking) as opposed to better bus service.

4) Winnipeg is a medium-sized city with medium-sized population growth dependent on international migration: We can expect that Winnipeg will, on average, grow between 8,000 and 16,000 people per year over the long term. Historically we've seen much of this growth being absorbed by greenfield housing in Bridgwater, Sage Creek, and Amber Trails. When people immigrate to Canada, they want to go to Toronto or Vancouver. If they have to come to Winnipeg, they want a house. Few immigrants, if they can avoid it, are willing to live in a Toronto-sized skybox in a Winnipeg-sized city with Winnipeg-sized amenities, so the trade off is smaller city in exchange for a bigger house. Many of the recent immigrants I've talked to cite Winnipeg's "cheap" single-detached or semi-detached housing as one of the main draws. So overall population growth doesn't necessarily translate to downtown population growth. And you can't force it either because:

5) Winnipeg's housing market competes with surrounding (cheaper) R.M.s: you can't just ask city planners to stop approving greenfield in hopes that all new housing will be built downtown because if you stop greenfield in Winnipeg proper, there are 12+ rural municipalities bordering Winnipeg that will happily accept that growth instead. I'd argue some of this is healthy, but at the same time, congestion in the metro area isn't bad enough (yet) that people are willing to pay a premium to be closer to downtown. Many people working downtown will gladly buy a 2,200 sqft house in La Salle versus an 800 sqft condo downtown because currently it only adds like 10 minutes to their commute. So we have to consider that forcing greenfield outside the city will just cause people to leave and commute further, still using and depreciating city assets without the property tax to support it - and no, tolls will not work on our terrible road network.

It's important to set our expectations so that they align with reality. "Fixing" downtown will not come overnight. As many here know, most of the revitalization requires one critical ingredient: people living downtown. Without that, downtown in the evening is just an empty (and sometimes unsafe) husk of its daytime self. But getting people to live downtown is the tricky part. It requires solving issues 1 to 3 above under the reality of issues 4 and 5. And we need to chip away at these issues little by little because change will move at a glacial pace, but we need to be consistent over the coming years and decades.

Politicians have a tendency to make a policy or give out some funding, and expect immediate results before the end of their term. And if no results can be observed, they will pull the plug. That's not how this works. TIFs for residences, downtown-focused safety programs, carrots and sticks that help eliminate surface lots, and helping vulnerable people in the north end will take many years for real results to start showing (i.e. dwelling, population, and wage growth downtown). So we need people and politicians who are not just committed to making the umpteenth plan, but also sticking it through for many decades to come.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8919  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 3:07 PM
Wpg_Guy's Avatar
Wpg_Guy Wpg_Guy is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 5,482
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalf View Post
.
Waiting for a culture change or for people to choose be better than than are is futile. People in aggregate are like a gas - they take the shape of their container. But that doesn't mean a handful of focused individuals can't try to alter the shape of that container.
Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
__________________
Winnipeg Act II - April 2024

In The Future Every Building Will Be World-Famous For Fifteen Minutes.

Instagram
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8920  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 4:25 PM
Sheepish Sheepish is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 183
I would think if we built up the area around Broadway (Main-Osborne) with 15 to 20 high-rise buildings (10-15 storeys), convert a couple of the existing office buildings to residential you could end up with a neighborhood that could emulate Michigan Ave. To me Broadway has the bones and feel like Michigan Ave.

Biff...an interesting an appealing concept, though basically turns our back on Portage. Portage between Main and Colony could be primarily high rise residential - and perhaps that should be the focus for planners. I do though want to disagree about Michigan Ave. I have probably spent more time in Chicago than most any other city, and Michigan Ave is depended on for through traffic from the Gold Coast to Grant Park and beyond. Yet still it is imminently walkable (and I have many times). I do recognize the economics are very different, but so are the expectations.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:36 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.