The New Jersey-NYC relationship

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

interstingly or not for illinois, if someone says they are from "Illinois", it's almost always a dead giveaway that they are not from chicagoland.

chicagogland people tend to say they are from "chicago", "near chicago", "suburban chicago", etc.


"illinois" is a different identity that's not really embraced by the 70% of the state's population who all crammed up into its far NE corner.

I didn’t pick up on this, but you’re right. I’ve never come across anyone from
Chicago who introduced themselves as being from “Illinois.” And most of Chicagoland is in IL, so it’s likely more common to hear suburban folks say they’re from Chicago. A New Jerseyan would never say they’re from New York.

[Quixote]

What's interesting though is that IL state lawmakers don't completely cater to the interests of Chicagoland like those in Albany do for NYC, even though NYS also has larger-sized metros like Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse.

[Steely Dan]

^ I don't follow NYS politics.

At all.

So I can't speak to the degree of relative state government backbending to the alpha metro between the two states.

But I do know that a very healthy majority of downstate Illinoisans would disagree with your assessment of IL politics with regard to its catering to Chicagoland.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

interstingly or not for illinois, if someone says they are from "Illinois", it's almost always a dead giveaway that they are not from chicagoland.

chicagogland people tend to say they are from "chicago", "near chicago", "suburban chicago", etc.


"illinois" is a different identity that's not really embraced by the 70% of the state's population who all crammed up into its far NE corner.

This bifurcation of identities is definitely stronger in Illinois than New York. At least residents there refer to themselves as being from one of the following: Upstate, Downstate, the City, one of the other boroughs, or Long Island—all of which either explicitly or implicitly refer to the monicker New York.

[Docere]

Yeah, and the Hudson Valley has a transitional character. The break between Chicagoland and rest of Illinois is sharper.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yeah, and the Hudson Valley has a transitional character. The break between Chicagoland and rest of Illinois is sharper.

Even still, I’d personally think governance in both New York and Illinois would be easier and more streamlined if the cities and their surroundings were cleaved from their states and new states created from them. Will never happen, but there are a number of good examples around the country…

Florida, New York, California, Texas, Illinois, and Ohio could all benefit from some form of devolution or cleavage.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ I don't follow NYS politics.

At all.

So I can't speak to the degree of relative state government backbending to the alpha metro between the two states.

But I do know that a very healthy majority of downstate Illinoisans would disagree with your assessment of IL politics with regard to its catering to Chicagoland.

My sense is that Chicagoland gets shafted a little because of the rest of the state (similar to Philly/PA). Am I conflating this with “disdain” downstaters have for Chicagoland?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Quixote

My sense is that Chicagoland gets shafted a little because of the rest of the state (similar to Philly/PA). Am I conflating this with “disdain” downstaters have for Chicagoland?

I think in reality the fiscal pie is just a lot smaller due to geography, economic, and population patterns vis-a-vis NYS and so everyone in Illinois gets shafted, just downstaters get shafted on social policy and the city gets shafted on spending while the suburbs reap the benefits.

The dynamic in PA is slightly distinct, where Philadelphia has to contend with a very clear secondary city (and one that has at times been Philly’s near-equal) in Pittsburgh. That necessarily pulls political weight out of the state’s alpha city and toward elsewhere. New York and Illinois do not have a clear competitor, but have a smattering of midsize (in NY) and small (in IL) metros. Pennsylvania has, in addition to its clear secondary city, multiple midsize and small metros just like NY and IL which pull funding thru the dispersal of political power.

[Quixote]

^ Harrisburg is even closer to Philly than Albany is to NYC, yet there seems to be much more of a cultural disconnect. It's like there are two southeast PAs: Delaware Valley + Allentown, Harrisburg-York-Lancaster. The latter would fit in MD just fine.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

My sense is that Chicagoland gets shafted a little because of the rest of the state (similar to Philly/PA). Am I conflating this with “disdain” downstaters have for Chicagoland?

I don't follow Illinois state politics, but I don't know how downstate has the power and numbers to shaft Chicagoland. It's too dominant in IL; Philadelphia just doesn't have that outsized influence in PA.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Quixote

My sense is that Chicagoland gets shafted a little because of the rest of the state (similar to Philly/PA). Am I conflating this with “disdain” downstaters have for Chicagoland?

You've got it backwards.

Downstate gets shafted, not Chicagoland.

Chicagoland democrats now control every single office and layer of state government in IL. Downstate IL republicans are some of the most powerless politicians in the nation right now.

IL Democrats even got one of the most gerrymandered congressional maps ever passed, giving Democrats 14 of the state's 17 US house districts, basically shoving every single farm voter into just 3 ultra-ruby red rural districts.

Downstaters are fucking pissed.

It's the main reason why the downstate secession movent is picking up steam again (not that it will go anywhere).

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Quixote

If someone says they’re from New York, I automatically assume either NYC, Long Island, or Hudson River Valley.

As someone from Upstate, I hate that. lol

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

I think in reality the fiscal pie is just a lot smaller due to geography, economic, and population patterns vis-a-vis NYS and so everyone in Illinois gets shafted, just downstaters get shafted on social policy and the city gets shafted on spending while the suburbs reap the benefits.

The dynamic in PA is slightly distinct, where Philadelphia has to contend with a very clear secondary city (and one that has at times been Philly’s near-equal) in Pittsburgh. That necessarily pulls political weight out of the state’s alpha city and toward elsewhere. New York and Illinois do not have a clear competitor, but have a smattering of midsize (in NY) and small (in IL) metros. Pennsylvania has, in addition to its clear secondary city, multiple midsize and small metros just like NY and IL which pull funding thru the dispersal of political power.

The Philadelphia suburbs are the political king makers in Pennsylvania. If you don't win them, the chances of someone running for a state wide office is not going to win unless turnout in the rural Trump counties are heavy and they win them at 80-90% of the vote total.

The four suburban counties are why Democrats now have the majority in the state legislature. The current governor is from Montgomery County and he is a Democrat. I live in Chester County which was staunch Republican forever and now flipped blue. The rural counties keep trying to push the far right agenda and in a purple state like PA...they aren't finding as many takers as they would like in Southeastern PA.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

interesting to see the two charleston's in dead last.


and no surprise that jersey's near the bottom.

it's the largest US state without a municiplatiy over 500k (technically it's georgia, but atlanta had grown to 496K by 2020, so close enough).


as we've often talked about, if hudson county had consolidated itself into a single city, NJ woulda had a proper alpha city of it's own.

725K in 46 sq. miles.

that's roughly a san francisco, right there in NJ directly across the the river from manhattan.

but the vast majority of people don't recognize it as such cuz it's just a county chopped up into a dozen different municipalities, wih 7 of those being utterly tiny little pissant places of around 1 sq. mile or less.

very dense by US standards, but all chopped up and divided.

Even though Jersey City is close to becoming the most populous, Newark is still the alpha city of New Jersey. Much of northern New Jersey infrastructure is centered on Newark, and it has the biggest downtown in New Jersey. Newark is directly on the border of Hudson County, so if that were ever to become a city it would just make sense to include Newark into it.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Even though Jersey City is close to becoming the most populous, Newark is still the alpha city of New Jersey. Much of northern New Jersey infrastructure is centered on Newark, and it has the biggest downtown in New Jersey. Newark is directly on the border of Hudson County, so if that were ever to become a city it would just make sense to include Newark into it.

right, but if hudson county's attempt to conolidate its cities into a single munipality had been successful back in the late 19th century, then it's very possible that "the city of hudson" would be NJ's apha today.

[Crawford]

NYC is the alpha city of NJ, even moreso than NYC is the alpha city of NY.

NJ has a higher share of its population in the NYC metro than NY.

[Quixote]

^ I see where you’re coming from, but I still think that’s a little extreme. NY is the fourth-most-populous state (third not too long ago) and covers a relatively large land mass, with the second-most prominent city being at the opposite end of the state and culturally having more in common with Cleveland. NYC still dominates to the degree that only people (generally speaking) who live close to NYS have to say “New York City” when referring to New York, NY. For basically everyone else around the country (there are exceptions, I see you jmancuso) and world, “New York” means NYC 90-95% of the time. Even type in “New York” in Google Maps, and it defaults to NYC.

NJ is a different state and prides itself on being its own entity more so than simply “metropolitan NYC.” Philadelphia has enough gravitational influence to disrupt NYC’s stranglehold on the state, although Mercer County being part of the NY metro when it sits right next to Bucks County does say a lot. But it’s also a very SSP thing to know that fact.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

The Philadelphia suburbs are the political king makers in Pennsylvania. If you don't win them, the chances of someone running for a state wide office is not going to win unless turnout in the rural Trump counties are heavy and they win them at 80-90% of the vote total.

The four suburban counties are why Democrats now have the majority in the state legislature. The current governor is from Montgomery County and he is a Democrat. I live in Chester County which was staunch Republican forever and now flipped blue. The rural counties keep trying to push the far right agenda and in a purple state like PA...they aren't finding as many takers as they would like in Southeastern PA.

Politically, at the statewide level, yes. You are spot on.

However, who votes and decides statewide elections only matter at the margins of government spending (executives can only do so much to alter the geography of spending). The bigger factor is the underlying distribution of population and the consequent distribution of legislative elected officials. The legislative process more greatly dictates spending patterns than any specific choices an executive can make while in office. All of my previous points still speak to this: Pennsylvania has a much more even popular distribution than either New York or Illinois. I’d also add to my original comment that rural Pennsylvania is significantly more populated than rural Illinois and similar to (or maybe also more populated than) rural New York.

So, yeah, the collar counties matter most in determining the executive (and other row offices), but does that mean that collar counties matter most in determining the distribution of funding? No, it means they marginally affect the statewide outcomes such that their preferred candidate can marginally affect spending patterns.

[Docere]

New York and Illinois (87%) are much urbanized than Pennsylvania (76.5%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbani...tes_and_dc.svg

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Docere

New York and Illinois (87%) are much urbanized than Pennsylvania (76.5%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbani...tes_and_dc.svg

So rural Pennsylvania is definitely a more important numerical force than rural New York or rural Illinois. This will always end up spreading government spending across geography rather than concentration into a specific city.