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  #8161  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
LOL, that story is bull. There's no mask-wearing requirement in NYC parks, or anywhere outdoors. There wasn't even such a requirement during the height of the pandemic. No one is wearing a mask outdoors, and that's been true for a long time.

And I don't understand why requiring a vax in some indoor venues isn't evidence of back to normal. It's the existence of such requirements that have gotten us back to normal (except in places that don't care about sick & dead folks bc they're trying to troll the libs or whatever). Showing an app on your phone for the privilege of dining in close quarters indoors is hardly an affront to civil rights, and it reassures the worry-warts who think they'll die unless they hole up forever.
I think there’s a very important distinction between “events” (where requiring proof of vaccination is fine, whatever) and anything else.

If you’ve bought tickets to a Broadway show or something at MSG, then you can certainly bring proof of vaccination. That’s like taking your passport when you go to the airport.

But it shouldn’t be required for anything more spontaneous, even for restaurants let alone bars, where you should be able to just drop in to check out the crowd or because they’re playing a song you like.

There is of course a big cultural divide between people for whom going out is a rare, pre-planned event (eg, many older people) and others. But Spain is a great example of the problem - the whole tapas bar-hopping culture that defines nightlife in Spanish cities is not possible with either social distancing or vaccination checks at the door. It simply can’t exist, and it needs to exist.
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  #8162  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by woodrow View Post
Can I also say the they NYC CovidSafe app is really nice. Very well designed. No fumbling for ID's or vax card. Simple to use.
How do you get this if you’re not from New York and were vaccinated elsewhere (in the US and/or abroad)?
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  #8163  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I think there’s a very important distinction between “events” (where requiring proof of vaccination is fine, whatever) and anything else.

If you’ve bought tickets to a Broadway show or something at MSG, then you can certainly bring proof of vaccination. That’s like taking your passport when you go to the airport.

But it shouldn’t be required for anything more spontaneous, even for restaurants let alone bars, where you should be able to just drop in to check out the crowd or because they’re playing a song you like.

There is of course a big cultural divide between people for whom going out is a rare, pre-planned event (eg, many older people) and others. But Spain is a great example of the problem - the whole tapas bar-hopping culture that defines nightlife in Spanish cities is not possible with either social distancing or vaccination checks at the door. It simply can’t exist, and it needs to exist.
It's really not a big deal. I've been to many bars since this went into effect. It's no more onerous than showing your ID to get into a bar or nightclub, which I've been doing for almost two decades now. You don't even have to show it if you drink/dine outdoors, which is an option that most places in NYC offer now.
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  #8164  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:10 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Really, it's not, lol. It's most likely Apple's fault: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-55317202

nope incorrect, really it is the apps fault, because it has continued to not work with the ny versions and likely others.

for ny you have to have ios13 or above, so iphone6 and before cannot handle that.

i dk why you are arguing this when you obviously have a newer phone and have no idea?
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  #8165  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
nope incorrect, really it is the apps fault, because it has continued to not work with the ny versions and likely others. for ny you have to have ios13 or above, so iphone6 and before cannot handle that.
It doesn't work because of changes to the iOS, or missing functionality on the previous iOS. An app developer does not control the iOS.
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  #8166  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It doesn't work because of changes to the iOS, or missing functionality on the previous iOS. An app developer does not control the iOS.
no, the app was only built for ios13 and above, so its solely the lazy and frankly elitest app developer's fault. these are shitty gov made or farmed out apps. also, most apps update themselves aand these never have, they have been static from day one.
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  #8167  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It's really not a big deal. I've been to many bars since this went into effect. It's no more onerous than showing your ID to get into a bar or nightclub, which I've been doing for almost two decades now. You don't even have to show it if you drink/dine outdoors, which is an option that most places in NYC offer now.
I’ve experienced the same system in France and Italy. It does change things. Just having to wait at the door for a person changes things (though admittedly that is more of a fact of life in the US anyway because of the high drinking age).
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  #8168  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:36 PM
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Can I also say the they NYC CovidSafe app is really nice. Very well designed. No fumbling for ID's or vax card. Simple to use.
Around here you can just use an image with a QR code, but you have to provide photo ID to go along with it. Unfortunately there has been little to no coordination around the country so every province is different and there is a separate federal passport for things like flying. Presumably you need 3 pieces of ID to fly and go to the airport restaurant here.

It is not a big deal. It is really about coercing people into getting vaccinated (which I think, to be clear, is a good goal, though I don't have a strong opinion on exactly how much coercion is acceptable). We are around 90% of eligible here but still have a significant number of daily covid cases. We still have care home outbreaks with significant covid-tagged deaths even though most people in those places are vaccinated.

It feels like a lot of the requirements around here are set by/for older people according to their tolerances which depend on factors like how much personal space they have and how much they like to go out. I'm pretty sure the ROI is hugely negative (< 0.1x) for the pandemic measures for anybody under 70, and I think SARS-CoV-2 will be with us indefinitely. There was never much talk of at-risk people isolating or getting extra services (rapid testing, move them into hotels, free delivery, etc.). I still think it'll all look pretty bad in the rear-view mirror, but that we don't have enough distance to get a clear picture yet.
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  #8169  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:53 PM
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^ 100% agreed with your last paragraph and that’s what I’ve been saying for 18 months. It’s been pretty clear since almost the beginning that this is an old person’s disease, anecdotal examples aside. There are countries where different rules for different age groups would have been possible (in the US less so), but the government advice/guidance should always have distinguished between at-risk people and others. When restaurants/bars opened, it should have been accompanied by very strong warnings to people over 60 that they were placing themselves at risk by going to them, for example.

I think the issue with using vaccine checks as a tool of coercion, aside from the fact that it only works to a certain extent (eventually, and quite soon, they have to just give up on the real holdouts), is that it punishes those of us who are already vaccinated along with the unvaccinated.

The larger flaw in the thinking is that, as we are now seeing, vaccinated people can still catch and spread Covid. It won’t affect them as severely, so the personal benefit remains, but the “get vaccinated for others’ sake” argument somewhat falls away. I am a strongly believer that laws are justified if necessary to prevent harm to others, but not to prevent people from harming themselves. And to be clear, the “collapse of the healthcare system” scare is really over in every developed country.

Generally speaking, this whole thing is being dragged out far too long because the people in power, and their whole generation (like some of our very own forumers here), are grumpy old folks who don’t miss out on anything they normally do. They don’t dance, they don’t party, they don’t go out to meet new people and flirt with women, they don’t like crowded bars. I’ve had more than one old Brit tell me they much prefer table service at pubs rather than having to go to the bar, and the fact that it’s not crowded, even if you have to reserve in advance. Well fuck you, I don’t, and I’m dropping in for a beer not reserving a table at the pub for dinner on Friday night. That generation has harmed subsequent ones in so many ways, this is just a particularly galling example.
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Last edited by 10023; Oct 26, 2021 at 5:05 PM.
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  #8170  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 5:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I think the issue with using vaccine checks as a tool of coercion, aside from the fact that it only works to a certain extent (eventually, and quite soon, they have to just give up on the real holdouts), is that it punishes those of us who are already vaccinated along with the unvaccinated.
From a selfish perspective I see it as a net benefit for people like me. I would have gotten vaccinated regardless and making a venue vaccinated only lowers the risk for me. In practice it also means fewer limits on those venues. The table service requirement was just dropped here with the vaccine requirement in place. I'd rather have no table service + vaccines than tables service + no vaccines.

There are some valid complaints about the general poor administration of the vaccine passports which we all could have predicted.

I think it's been generally mischaracterized by the media on both sides but there's still an effect on spread even if the vaccines are nowhere near 100% effective at preventing infection months into the future. The unvaccinated are about 10x more likely here to test positive. There are many factors behind that but vaccination is likely to be a strong one.

Quote:
Generally speaking, this whole thing is being dragged out far too long because the people in power, and their whole generation (like some of our very own forumers here), are grumpy old folks who don’t miss out on anything they normally do.
The worst aspect of it is that a lot of poor vulnerable people still had to work through the whole thing when we were supposedly locked down. The Wal-Mart clerks, chicken plant workers, line cooks, and Uber drivers didn't stop working, and plenty of them are high risk due to age or health problems. Lots of people live or work in crowded environments too and nothing really changed there.

The overall shape of the lockdown and who benefited closely matched the political contours that normally exist around here. Well-off Boomer aged people did great, there was a semi-meaningless carve-out for certain ethnic groups to make it feel progressive, poor did badly overall, etc.
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  #8171  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 5:42 PM
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Because of my sheer brilliance, I can typically see 3-4 steps ahead of most other people. I have been pretty much tired of the nonsense around post-vaccine COVID for a long time.

Right now most of society isn't there yet. They will be, eventually, and will realize that most of the fear and perpetually name-dropping COVID to justify every excuse in the book is getting old quickly...
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  #8172  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Because of my sheer brilliance, I can typically see 3-4 steps ahead of most other people. I have been pretty much tired of the nonsense around post-vaccine COVID for a long time.

Right now most of society isn't there yet. They will be, eventually, and will realize that most of the fear and perpetually name-dropping COVID to justify every excuse in the book is getting old quickly...
I'd say most people are there at this point, people are eager to get back with their lives. As of November 8 with the US border re-opening, my life is essentially back to normal with some extra work from home days added in, as well as a few minor annoyances like vaccination checks for restaurants and needing a covid test before returning from the US. I can go visit friends in the US again, travel, eat out, socialize as much as I wish, etc. Most people I talk to don't care much about social distancing, masking, etc., anymore as they know they are vaccinated and it doesn't really matter. At this point everyone seems to still be masking in public and doing the whole covid-dance simply because of government mandates trying to keep hospitals overwhelmed from the few people in society still unvaccinated (Ontario is just short of 90% eligible vaccinated right now), and even those mandates are pretty minor for a fully vaccinated individual.
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  #8173  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 5:57 PM
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I'd say most people are there at this point, people are eager to get back with their lives. As of November 8 with the US border re-opening, my life is essentially back to normal with some extra work from home days added in, as well as a few minor annoyances like vaccination checks for restaurants and needing a covid test before returning from the US. I can go visit friends in the US again, travel, eat out, socialize as much as I wish, etc.
The return test seems minor but what happens if you fly somewhere and then test positive? What if you don't have 10-14 days of reservations in place? Even if you drive, if you test positive will you be allowed to drive home and isolate there?
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  #8174  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:02 PM
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The return test seems minor but what happens if you fly somewhere and then test positive? What if you don't have 10-14 days of reservations in place? Even if you drive, if you test positive will you be allowed to drive home and isolate there?
Testing won't be required for U.S. citizens to re-enter at a land border. Only non-residents. I assume it's the same for Canadians returning to Canada. But flying is a different animal, since you aren't allowed to board a plane to/from or within the U.S. if you have recently tested positive.
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  #8175  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:09 PM
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Around here you can just use an image with a QR code, but you have to provide photo ID to go along with it. Unfortunately there has been little to no coordination around the country so every province is different and there is a separate federal passport for things like flying. Presumably you need 3 pieces of ID to fly and go to the airport restaurant here.

It is not a big deal. It is really about coercing people into getting vaccinated (which I think, to be clear, is a good goal, though I don't have a strong opinion on exactly how much coercion is acceptable). We are around 90% of eligible here but still have a significant number of daily covid cases. We still have care home outbreaks with significant covid-tagged deaths even though most people in those places are vaccinated.

It feels like a lot of the requirements around here are set by/for older people according to their tolerances which depend on factors like how much personal space they have and how much they like to go out. I'm pretty sure the ROI is hugely negative (< 0.1x) for the pandemic measures for anybody under 70, and I think SARS-CoV-2 will be with us indefinitely. There was never much talk of at-risk people isolating or getting extra services (rapid testing, move them into hotels, free delivery, etc.). I still think it'll all look pretty bad in the rear-view mirror, but that we don't have enough distance to get a clear picture yet.
Yeah, in Quebec we have a smart phone app with our vaccination proof (QR code) and establishments like restaurants, bars, theatres, etc. have another app that they use to scan the codes of people entering.

In practice 95% of them do this although as you see they are not compatible between provinces (I am right on the border with Ontario) and some people don't have smart phones so they have paper vaccination certificates or laminated ones that they show and which are accepted.

So there is still a portion of the process that is manual.

Also, I have noticed a few places where I am a regular don't even check my app any more.

For me the main advantage of the app is easy access to it (not having to search for a PDF file) or not having to take out a paper certificate that will get destroyed over time or in the wash.
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  #8176  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:04 PM
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Testing won't be required for U.S. citizens to re-enter at a land border. Only non-residents. I assume it's the same for Canadians returning to Canada.
Nope. Canadians need to retest before returning at the land border. It makes no sense whatsoever for some trips. If somebody spends 2 hours in the US to go to Trader Joe's then does a PCR test and comes back, the PCR test says nothing about whether or not they picked up covid while in the US.
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  #8177  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:22 PM
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Eventually we just have to stop caring if people have Covid. Get vaccinated and there’s a 99.99% chance you’ll be fine (as opposed to the 98.7% chance pre-vaccination). If you’re very old it’s another thing to worry about, but we’re all going to die. Enough already.
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  #8178  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:24 PM
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Nope. Canadians need to retest before returning at the land border. It makes no sense whatsoever for some trips. If somebody spends 2 hours in the US to go to Trader Joe's then does a PCR test and comes back, the PCR test says nothing about whether or not they picked up covid while in the US.
According to the website, you can take a test before leaving Canada and use that for re-entry if the trip is less than 72 hours. But yes, I agree that it doesn't make sense.

The U.S. won't have the same rules because it is illegal to deny entry to a U.S. citizen.
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  #8179  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:27 PM
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The return test seems minor but what happens if you fly somewhere and then test positive? What if you don't have 10-14 days of reservations in place? Even if you drive, if you test positive will you be allowed to drive home and isolate there?
If you are driving you would have to self isolate at home when you return with a positive test, no different than if you tested positive at home. Like the US a Canadian can't be denied entry at the border so the most they can do is advise you to quarantine.

Flying is a bit more problematic as you wouldn't be allowed on the plane with current regulations I believe. So you could either rent a car and make it home along the ground, or you would have to wait it out.
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  #8180  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:44 PM
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According to the website, you can take a test before leaving Canada and use that for re-entry if the trip is less than 72 hours. But yes, I agree that it doesn't make sense.
Yeah, I was going to add this detail. The pre-testing thing was sold as making it more convenient but they're admitting that test has really nothing to do with the travel itself.

I'm more likely to drive somewhere if I can self isolate at home after. Unfortunately Canada being where it is there are not a lot of nice winter destinations within easy driving distance. And I am not sure I'd bother doing a test for a daytrip.

I still think the flight testing + masking + vaccination stuff collectively is either wrong or very close to being wrong, generating a lot of extra hassle for minimal benefit. If we looked at the trade-off rationally (net payoff from making masked and vaccinated people test vs. not test) I doubt it would be positive. To do this you'd figure out the cost of testing and isolation versus the risk of getting somebody sick (low once vaccines and masks are introduced). We could debate those numbers, but I doubt anybody is transparently doing this kind of calculation. The statements from Canadian officials don't point to this kind of reasoning. They tend to be of the "if we can prevent some cases it's all worth it" variety ("I can reduce my risk of leg cancer by 50% by chopping off just 1 leg").

One of the telltale signs a lot of people are being irrational is the vaccines drop the risk of serious illness by maybe 10-30x but that hasn't changed the outlook for a lot of them.
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