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  #8081  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
I needed to go to the Union Square area a couple of times recently and I was really surprised at the crowds. It seemed busier to me than I remember it being before covid: Times Square in the before-days busy. The Apple Store and Williams Sonoma were crowded. Macy's less so (but department stores just aren't where it's at lately).

I'm also seeing lots of those red double decker tourist busses these days with at least the upper open air level full of people.
It's been that way for awhile now for most parts of SF. Obviously not to the same volume as Union Square but the majority of the City is pretty much back to pre-COVID capacities. The exception is the FiDi for obvious reasons.
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  #8082  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That restaurant is setting itself up to get sued.
Why though? It's the same thing as them getting kicked out for being shirtless or without shoes. I think...?
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  #8083  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 6:39 PM
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Last week, she said, the Westers went to Hang Time, a bar and restaurant in Rowlett, 20 miles outside Dallas, for a rare outing.
Probably where they went wrong.
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  #8084  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 6:48 PM
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Why though? It's the same thing as them getting kicked out for being shirtless or without shoes. I think...?
Someone can, and probably will, interpret the policy as being biased against people who are older or of poor health. That would potentially violate a few federal laws. There may even be some Texas laws that it would violate as well
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  #8085  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That restaurant is setting itself up to get sued.
You would think a couple with an immune compromised infant would have an ADA issue.
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  #8086  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Someone can, and probably will, interpret the policy as being biased against people who are older or of poor health. That would potentially violate a few federal laws. There may even be some Texas laws that it would violate as well
That's a good argument in favor of the vaccine passport, I would think. If rules in Texas are different that doesn't mean Texans get to be exempt from another state's laws. Same goes for a New Yorker visiting Texas...they better not wear their mask into a business who doesn't allow mask wearing.
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  #8087  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TWAK View Post
That's a good argument in favor of the vaccine passport, I would think. If rules in Texas are different that doesn't mean Texans get to be exempt from another state's laws. Same goes for a New Yorker visiting Texas...they better not wear their mask into a business who doesn't allow mask wearing.
The problem with the restaurant's policy is that it goes beyond just leaving the mask wearing decision to the customer. The restaurant explicitly forbids wearing a mask as a term of service.

We know that 1) mask wearing is broadly considered to be a reasonable precaution against contracting COVID, and 2) COVID tends to be more serious and lethal for people who are older or have underlying health issues. Thus, the policy implicitly favors people who are younger and healthier. So you have potential age discrimination and potential discrimination on the basis of disability.
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  #8088  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The problem with the restaurant's policy is that it goes beyond just leaving the mask wearing decision to the customer. The restaurant explicitly forbids wearing a mask as a term of service.

We know that 1) mask wearing is broadly considered to be a reasonable precaution against contracting COVID, and 2) COVID tends to be more serious and lethal for people who are older or have underlying health issues. Thus, the policy implicitly favors people who are younger and healthier. So you have potential age discrimination and potential discrimination on the basis of disability.
That’s a bit of a stretch.

What are the precedents around MAGA hats or other “politically sensitive” or offensive attire? The restaurant could make the argument that the mask-wearing couple were trying to make a political statement and this was disruptive to their business. Masks are largely about virtue signalling at this point so they would have an argument.
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  #8089  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The local media has been focusing on him due to his stating publicly that he is not vaccinated. Since our new mandatory vaccination rules just went into effect, the media will be following him everywhere to see if he breaks the rules.
Brazilian far right has a very strong inferiority complex towards Western Europe and the US and they’re always worried about their perceptions on the country.

Hence Bolsonaro anti-vaccine rhetoric is tuned down a lot in NYC (see how uncomfortable he was when Boris Johnson asked if they got the British vax). It’s really bizarre and an international embarrassment. The country is ruled by a maniac with a strong and very radicalized fanbase.
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  #8090  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 8:58 PM
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As recently as July 6th Florida's 7-day rolling average of deaths per day was just 21. Now we stand at 445 deaths per day on average (and still climbing, it was in the 300s last week). More than twice as high as the previous wave back in January 2021. Almost 10k dead recorded in Florida just since August 23rd. All with a vaccine readily available. Meanwhile DeSantis has instituted fines on businesses that try to find ways to force vaccination of their employees or business (like cruise lines) that require vaccination.
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  #8091  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Brazilian far right has a very strong inferiority complex towards Western Europe and the US and they’re always worried about their perceptions on the country.

Hence Bolsonaro anti-vaccine rhetoric is tuned down a lot in NYC (see how uncomfortable he was when Boris Johnson asked if they got the British vax). It’s really bizarre and an international embarrassment. The country is ruled by a maniac with a strong and very radicalized fanbase.
Will Lula run for President again and if so, do you think he'll win?
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  #8092  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
That’s a bit of a stretch.

What are the precedents around MAGA hats or other “politically sensitive” or offensive attire? The restaurant could make the argument that the mask-wearing couple were trying to make a political statement and this was disruptive to their business. Masks are largely about virtue signalling at this point so they would have an argument.
They could try that and I think any judge would get very angry at them for doing so.

IF they have an immune compromised child, they have a very legitimate reason for wanting to take special precautions. It's not a fashion or political statement like a MAGA hat. It's a valid medical issue. And once again, I bet they'd have a case under the ADA for not being afforded reasonable accommodation of that issue.
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  #8093  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Will Lula run for President again and if so, do you think he'll win?
If you asked me this six months ago, I'd say probably not. But now I think he has good chances.

Polls indicate he defeats Bolsonaro by a confortable 55%-34% lead on the 2nd round. Bolsonaro has a persistent and faithful base (24% of approval despite all the madness) but his rejection is at 55%.

Middle and upper-class and the wealthier South/Southeast/Midwest continuous to be very anti-left, but on the other hand, Bolsonaro has facing a strong rejection on big cities while the centre-right doesn't have a competitive candidate.

With Lula in the game, he can retain the vote of the poor and from the poorer Northeast that could otherwise started to go to Bolsonaro as the president in office usually use social programs to conquer those votes.

And now there are people like me: I've always been (centre) right-winger, never voted for Lula or the left, but Bolsonaro converted me. Not only a hate this maniac and everything he represents, but I deserted the right altogether as they're to blame for having this thing elected. They showed themselves to be way more regressive than the local left. Not to mention the classism and racism that is incredibly present on the middle-class mindset.
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  #8094  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
As recently as July 6th Florida's 7-day rolling average of deaths per day was just 21. Now we stand at 445 deaths per day on average (and still climbing, it was in the 300s last week). More than twice as high as the previous wave back in January 2021. Almost 10k dead recorded in Florida just since August 23rd. All with a vaccine readily available. Meanwhile DeSantis has instituted fines on businesses that try to find ways to force vaccination of their employees or business (like cruise lines) that require vaccination.
Honestly though, who cares?

I agree with DeSantis. Businesses shouldn’t have to police their employees on something like this, and they shouldn’t be put in a position where they have to. If some idiots refuse to get vaccinated and die, that’s their own problem. As long as we don’t have significant numbers of vaccinated people becoming seriously ill and dying (and we don’t) then it’s frankly a non-issue.

The hospital beds problem can be solved in other ways, of course (like, just don’t give the last available beds to unvaccinated Covid patients).
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  #8095  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
They could try that and I think any judge would get very angry at them for doing so.

IF they have an immune compromised child, they have a very legitimate reason for wanting to take special precautions. It's not a fashion or political statement like a MAGA hat. It's a valid medical issue. And once again, I bet they'd have a case under the ADA for not being afforded reasonable accommodation of that issue.
Are immune-compromised people a protected class under ADA? If not then this doesn’t work.

They might become one as a result of legal proceedings, but that wouldn’t be relevant in this particular case.
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  #8096  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
That’s a bit of a stretch.

What are the precedents around MAGA hats or other “politically sensitive” or offensive attire? The restaurant could make the argument that the mask-wearing couple were trying to make a political statement and this was disruptive to their business. Masks are largely about virtue signalling at this point so they would have an argument.
That's your opinion. The government has endorsed mask wearing as a precaution against contracting COVID. That's not an opinion.
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  #8097  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:36 PM
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Are immune-compromised people a protected class under ADA? If not then this doesn’t work.

They might become one as a result of legal proceedings, but that wouldn’t be relevant in this particular case.
It's certainly arguable and I think they'd win:

Quote:
To be protected by the ADA, one must have a disability, which is defined by the ADA as a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, a person who has a history or record of such an impairment, or a person who is perceived by others as having such an impairment.
Furthermore:

Quote:
The definition of “disability” shall be construed broadly in favor of expansive coverage, to the maximum extent permitted by the terms of the ADA.
https://www.ada.gov/ada_intro.htm

Someone unusually vulnerable to infectious disease could be limited in all sorts of ways. And that person's parental caretakers would be quite reasonable in taking extra precautions.
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  #8098  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2021, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Brazilian far right has a very strong inferiority complex towards Western Europe and the US and they’re always worried about their perceptions on the country.

Hence Bolsonaro anti-vaccine rhetoric is tuned down a lot in NYC (see how uncomfortable he was when Boris Johnson asked if they got the British vax). It’s really bizarre and an international embarrassment. The country is ruled by a maniac with a strong and very radicalized fanbase.
It is being amplified here. Many local news broadcasts yesterday mentioned it at the start of the newscast. This is also the second week of NYC's enforcement of the vaccine mandate for certain businesses, so it was pretty bad timing for a high profile anti-vaxxer to come into town and speak at the U.N.
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  #8099  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2021, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Honestly though, who cares?

I agree with DeSantis. Businesses shouldn’t have to police their employees on something like this, and they shouldn’t be put in a position where they have to. If some idiots refuse to get vaccinated and die, that’s their own problem. As long as we don’t have significant numbers of vaccinated people becoming seriously ill and dying (and we don’t) then it’s frankly a non-issue.

The hospital beds problem can be solved in other ways, of course (like, just don’t give the last available beds to unvaccinated Covid patients).
Its not that they don't have to police their employees, its that they are not allowed to. Its the opposite extreme from a place like NY, that is requiring businesses to check for vaccine status. FL banned any business from asking about vaccine status. DeSantis just appointed a new surgeon general who is specifically downplaying vaccines and essential advising against them.
And no it will not stop at Covid vaccine status. Anti-Vax has taken cracked the door into the GOP and they are looking into vastly expanding exceptions for vaccinations for all other diseases well.
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  #8100  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2021, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Its not that they don't have to police their employees, its that they are not allowed to. Its the opposite extreme from a place like NY, that is requiring businesses to check for vaccine status. FL banned any business from asking about vaccine status. DeSantis just appointed a new surgeon general who is specifically downplaying vaccines and essential advising against them.
And no it will not stop at Covid vaccine status. Anti-Vax has taken cracked the door into the GOP and they are looking into vastly expanding exceptions for vaccinations for all other diseases well.
Yes, but if the rule is that they cannot police vaccine status then no business feels pressured or obligated to do so because that’s what others are doing, or because of media/press etc. Nothing is ever fully optional. Just as the argument for vaccine mandates is that it lets businesses off the hook from being the ones doing the “forcing”, this lets businesses off the hook from not doing so. It’s the opposite side of the same coin.

I have a lot of sympathy for the argument that employees should be protected from invasions of privacy by their employers (which is something people should care about). I don’t think employers should be allowed to drug test either. And there are all kinds of issues when most people also get health coverage through their employer.

Again, I’m fully vaccinated and not anti-vaccine or anti-science or anything else. I just think that governments have done, and people have allowed them to do, a whole lot of things that they should never ever be allowed to do again. The last year and a half has been an Orwellian nightmare.
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