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  #8041  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2021, 11:25 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Rode the London tube for the first time in a bit after a few weeks in France. At 9pm it was a fairly full train (not pre-Covid rush hour, but definitely no free seats) and down to about 1 in 5 people wearing masks.
I was on the Tube last weekend around 12:30 at night, and it was PACKED. No one was wearing a mask either.

Also.... Is the Tube shutting down after midnight a Covid thing, or just a London thing? I was extremely irritated about that, and it significantly disrupted my party plans that night.....
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  #8042  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2021, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I was on the Tube last weekend around 12:30 at night, and it was PACKED. No one was wearing a mask either.

Also.... Is the Tube shutting down after midnight a Covid thing, or just a London thing? I was extremely irritated about that, and it significantly disrupted my party plans that night.....
No, not a Covid thing. They only introduced a “night tube” (only certain lines and only on weekends) several years ago. Before that it all closed at midnight. This is not a 24-hour city.
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  #8043  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2021, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Not sure but the policy or Uber and Lyft is that you must wear a mask and they actually ask if you are wearing one when you try to request a car. Haven't taken a taxi in a L-o-o-ong time but I assume they are the same.
Here that’s an Uber rule (because they’re in California). In taxis you are technically supposed to wear masks but the drivers don’t care and usually they don’t wear one either (I think they just put it on if they see the passenger has one).
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  #8044  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 1:03 AM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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^ Does that apply to taxis and Ubers?
No, but you can get banned from those platform for not wearing one.
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  #8045  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 1:08 AM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
I'm hearing from some fairly liberal legal commentators that attempts to enforce an OSHA mandate for vaccines will probably fail in federal court. OSHA has had virtually no success in court trying to enforce similar workplace orders."Emergency Temporary Standards" — under which the rules are being implemented on a fast track — have been particularly vulnerable to challenges in the past. Some legal scholars think the severity of the covid situation will be compelling enough to produce a favorable court outcome. Others are very doubtful that OSHA will prevail in court.
I don't think they've actually written the policy yet (or at least publicly released it), but all of the opinions that I've seen have said that they should be able to write a mandate that withstands challenge.
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  #8046  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 2:17 AM
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I don't think they've actually written the policy yet (or at least publicly released it), but all of the opinions that I've seen have said that they should be able to write a mandate that withstands challenge.
The "policy"--that is, Biden's charge to OSHA--has been written but the necessary temporary OSHA rule has not. I have seen arguments that suggest the alternative option of frequent testing rather than vaccination could make a big different to courts. We'll see. But here's one article about it:

Quote:
Biden's vaccine mandate: Expert would be 'surprised' to see legal challenges prevail
Alexis Keenan·Reporter
Tue, September 14, 2021, 2:58 PM·5 min read

President Joe Biden's upcoming mandate that most U.S. workers either get vaccinated against COVID-19 or get tested weekly will most certainly face legal pushback. But labor and employment lawyers say those challenging the standard could have a tough time winning their cases.

“Inevitably, there will be ready plaintiffs to challenge this,” Rutgers University employment law professor Stacy Hawkins said about Biden’s announcement Thursday directing the U.S. Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) to adopt the new regulations for private sector U.S. employers with more than 100 workers.

The new, yet-to-be-seen rule, called an emergency temporary standard, would apply to approximately 100 million U.S. workers and about two-thirds of U.S. employees, according to the White House. Federal employers and contractors would be required to get vaccinated, with no testing option alternative.

While company executives have widely embraced the new directive, and already rolled out their own vaccination requirements, some Republican governors and the Republican National Committee have warned the Biden administration to expect a fight. Georgia’s Republican governor, Brian Kemp, and South Dakota’s Republican governor, Kristi Noem, have both vowed to combat the new rule . . . .

The challenges from state governors and attorneys general could potentially allege that Biden’s directive violates the separation of powers between the executive, judicial, and legislative branches, according to Condon McGlothlen, a partner with Seyfarth’s labor and employment practice group. Challengers could also argue that the rule interferes with a state's right to set health care policy . . . .

A separation of powers challenge could argue that Biden, by directing OSHA to act, is trying to overstep his executive authority to accomplish what he could not or did not try to get through Congress, without even officially issuing an executive order. Meanwhile, McGlothlen said, a state’s rights challenge could argue that state and local authorities typically make decisions about public health.

Still, he said, “I would be surprised to see those challenges prevail — but I’m sure they will be brought."

“It would be clearly problematic for Biden to try to do this by executive order,” Hawkins said, pointing out the more narrow opening that his unofficial directive to OSHA provides for plaintiffs looking to challenge the measure.

Another anticipated challenge is from state governors who argue that OSHA’s rule deprives citizens of personal liberty, in violation of the 14th Amendment. However, because the emergency temporary standard is directed at corporations rather than individuals, it's more likely to survive legal scrutiny. For decades, Hawkins said, courts have failed to extend robust liberty interests to corporations.

Opponents of the emergency rule could also challenge whether it exceeds OSHA's authority under the Occupational Safety and Health and Act of 1970, according to Hawkins.

“One of the challenges will surely be that [the new rule] exceeds their rule-making power,” she said.

Opponents could argue that an emergency temporary standard shouldn't be deployed to address the spread of COVID-19 since epidemiologists have predicted it will be around for some time. "If anything, we should be coming up with a more long-term strategy, and we’ve had a lot of time,” Hawkins speculated about the possible argument.

Still, challenges are not insurmountable. As noted by the law firm Beveridge & Diamond, prior to OSHA’s emergency temporary standard for health care workers issued in June, the agency had promulgated emergency rules nine times, and among them, five were stayed, or vacated in part, under court challenges. According to the Congressional Research Service, prior to the June rule, OSHA had last attempted to use the rule-making authority in 1983.

'The testing alternative makes it much more palatable'

OSHA’s new rule could potentially implicate Title VII of the Civil Rights Act's protections against discrimination based on religion, as well as protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

So far, private sector employers have been advised that any vaccine mandates they impose on their workforce should accommodate those who decline vaccination for medical or religious reasons.

Courtney​ Malveaux, co-leader of Jackson Lewis’ workplace safety and health practice group, said that because the new regulation is expected to offer a testing alternative to vaccination for those workers, he suspects it will pass legal scrutiny.

“To my knowledge, there is no sincerely held religious belief or disability that prevents testing,” Malveaux said. “If there is, I haven't heard of it, so I think the testing alternative makes it much more palatable, legally.”

In addition to the certainty of legal challenges, the rule will almost certainly face delays beyond the "few weeks" that the White House has predicted. The rule may also look different from what Biden announced.

Case in point: OSHA, known to be under-resourced, announced its decision to require vaccination for health care workers in March and finally published its rule in June, Malveaux said. “And then what did come out was far, far different from what the stated intent was,” he added.

For their part, opponents of Biden's vaccine mandate will have to see what the final emergency rule looks like before they craft their legal challenges.
https://news.yahoo.com/bidens-vaccin...215842506.html
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  #8047  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 3:44 AM
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Dan Abrams and his guest Baruch Fellner on Sirius/POTUS Radio Tuesday night offered a less optimistic assessment of the likelihood the OSHA mandate would prevail at the SCOTUS level.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-...date-explained

https://lawandcrime.com/covid-19-pan...supreme-court/
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  #8048  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 6:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
Dan Abrams and his guest Baruch Fellner on Sirius/POTUS Radio Tuesday night offered a less optimistic assessment of the likelihood the OSHA mandate would prevail at the SCOTUS level.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-...date-explained

https://lawandcrime.com/covid-19-pan...supreme-court/
It certainly isn't clear cut either way.
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  #8049  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 7:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
The "policy"--that is, Biden's charge to OSHA--has been written but the necessary temporary OSHA rule has not. I have seen arguments that suggest the alternative option of frequent testing rather than vaccination could make a big different to courts. We'll see. But here's one article about it:

https://news.yahoo.com/bidens-vaccin...215842506.html
At some level does it even matter?

The administration makes this policy and it is in effect for a period of time while Republicans sue. During that time people are compelled to be vaccinated if they want to keep their jobs. If after legal proceedings and appeals (months? years?) the regulation is determined to be unlawful, all of those people will still be vaccinated.

There is some political downside to a high profile legal defeat, but on balance given the timely nature of the objective here, this seems to be a pretty obvious strategy.
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  #8050  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 7:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
At some level does it even matter?

The administration makes this policy and it is in effect for a period of time while Republicans sue. During that time people are compelled to be vaccinated if they want to keep their jobs. If after legal proceedings and appeals (months? years?) the regulation is determined to be unlawful, all of those people will still be vaccinated.

There is some political downside to a high profile legal defeat, but on balance given the timely nature of the objective here, this seems to be a pretty obvious strategy.
Not if some judge issues a temporary restraining order which is probably the first thing the opponents will request and they are likely to get it because they will find a "friendly" judge to ask.
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  #8051  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2021, 12:07 AM
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Out of state plates seen in the last few days...2 from Massachusetts, 3 from California, 3 from Florida, 2 from New Jersey, 2 from Oklahoma, and one each from Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Louisiana, Virginia, Arkansas, and at least 3 others I couldn't make out.

https://www.statesman.com/story/busi...st/8369839002/
Quote:
Austin's jobless rate falls to 3.8%, lowest since pandemic began
Lori Hawkins
Austin American-Statesman

In the latest sign that Austin's economic recovery from COVID-19 is pushing ahead, the area's unemployment rate last month fell to its lowest point since the pandemic hit.

The jobless rate in the Austin metro area came in at 3.8% in August, according to the Texas Workforce Commission. That's down from 4.2% in July and 5.5% in August 2020. The metro area numbers are from Travis, Williamson, Hays, Bastrop and Caldwell counties.

Employers in the region added 1,400 jobs last month, according to the Texas Workforce Commission, bringing total nonfarm employment to 1.24 million — about even with the number of people employed in the Austin area in February 2020, just before COVID-19 pummeled the economy nationwide.
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  #8052  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 2:35 AM
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This video isn't not mine but it does show how Paris metro is currently.
Busy and (almost) everybody wear a maks.

Video Link


This resumes pretty much all my ride to work that were packed.

Those two pictures were taken last Friday after leaving office.
People joining bars.
This first picture was taken at 6:30 pm. A bit early as most people don't leave office before 6pm in Paris.

Ground Control, 12e by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Rue de Lappe, 11e by Minato ku, sur Flickr

And then this saturday.

All those queues are for bubble tea.
With Chatime, The Alley, CoCo Fresh next to each other.

Rue des Petits Champs, 1er, 2e by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Most restaurants were full during dining time. I've taken those picture at 10pm.


Rue de Buci, 6e by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Rue Grégoire de Tours, 6e by Minato ku, sur Flickr
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  #8053  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 5:24 AM
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delete
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  #8054  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 5:48 AM
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Quote:
Here's why California has the lowest COVID rate in the nation
Nanette Asimov
Sep. 18, 2021

California hit the lowest coronavirus case rate in the nation Friday — thanks not only to high vaccination and masking, but also to a state culture that generally embraces public health precautions, experts said.

Despite the highly contagious delta variant, which accounts for essentially all COVID cases in California, coronavirus infections are plummeting in the state, with a 32% drop in average weekly cases as of Thursday compared to a month earlier — 25 per 100,000 people, down from 33 per 100,000.

In much of the country outside the Northeast, case rates are at least double, or even five times higher, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports.

California’s ability to reduce the spread of the virus lies partly in vaccinations. Among residents 18 and older, 69% are fully vaccinated, according to the New York Times vaccination tracker.

That’s good, but nowhere near good enough, said Stephen Shortell, dean emeritus at UC Berkeley’s School of Public Health, who said it may take a 90% vaccination rate to achieve herd immunity because of the delta variant.

California is the 19th state by vaccination percentage.

“We are not the most vaccinated state,” said Dr. Kirsten Bibbins-Domingo, chair of UCSF’s Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics. “But we are also a state that has not completely abandoned the other mitigation methods.”

California requires mask wearing at schools, on public transportation, and in hospitals, nursing homes and prisons. Masks in other indoor settings are recommended.

The Bay Area has been far more aggressive than the state. In eight of the nine counties, masks are required in nearly all indoor public settings — restaurants and bars being the main exceptions, though San Francisco, Berkeley and Contra Costa County require people to be vaccinated to enter those venues. Case rates in the region have plunged faster in recent weeks than those statewide.

Experts say many residents go beyond the rules.

“I think in California, there is a social norm around masking,” said Arnab Mukherjea, chair of Cal State East Bay’s public health department. “If you go outside, 75% of people are wearing masks.”

The state had the lowest COVID rates in the country on Friday, with 114 weekly cases for every 100,000 residents, according to the CDC’s tracker map.

Wyoming has one of the highest state rates, with a weekly figure of 659 cases per 100,000 residents. Only half of its residents 18 and older are fully vaccinated — trailing every state except West Virginia. Wyoming’s governor lifted the state’s mask mandate in March . . . .

Connecticut and Vermont have the highest vaccination rates in the nation, with 79% of adults having gotten their shots in each state.

Not coincidentally, Connecticut’s seven-day case rate was nearly as low as California’s on Friday, and Vermont’s was only slightly higher than Connecticut’s.

Dr. Tim Lahey, infectious disease expert at the University of Vermont Medical Center, credited not just his state’s high vaccination rate, but its science-based leadership for its comparatively low weekly COVID rate of 151 cases per 100,000 residents . . . .

In 1995, after California became the first state to ban smoking in workplaces — influencing about half the states, including Vermont and Connecticut — “we made it socially acceptable” to broadly adopt public health practices, said Mukherjea of Cal State East Bay.

But the state’s commitment to public health alliances among key groups goes back to the 1980s, said Dr. John Swartzberg, an infectious disease expert at UC Berkeley.

Early on, those most at risk for getting sick and dying from AIDS clashed with public health officials. But “we really ironed it out,” Swartzberg said. “We realized we were all on the same team, and we did a spectacular job.”


Up and down the state, he said, “we made a cultural shift that positioned us really well for tackling the pandemic in ways that other states didn’t have in place” . . . .
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...e-16468706.php
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  #8055  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 1:11 PM
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^ Sounds miserable. Having the lowest rate of Covid infection is no longer necessary or even desirable. The only people that have to worry are the unvaccinated (and who cares about them?).

I was actually in Paris last weekend, but didn’t ride the metro at all because of the mask thing. Just got around by bike or on foot, or by taxi (half those guys don’t care).
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  #8056  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 1:20 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ Bragging about low Covid rates

Wow, what an amazing accomplishment! How much basement time did y’all put in?

My idea of a desirable place to live right there….
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  #8057  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 3:05 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
^ Sounds miserable. Having the lowest rate of Covid infection is no longer necessary or even desirable. The only people that have to worry are the unvaccinated (and who cares about them?).

I was actually in Paris last weekend, but didn’t ride the metro at all because of the mask thing. Just got around by bike or on foot, or by taxi (half those guys don’t care).
Agreed.

It's been so much fun to be out and about around people here in London.

Happy to see Paris is opening back up to normal again now too.
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  #8058  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian's article
“I think in California, there is a social norm around masking,” said Arnab Mukherjea, chair of Cal State East Bay’s public health department. “If you go outside, 75% of people are wearing masks.”
So it's more about normalizing masks and virtue signaling than it is about the science which has said people don't need to wear them outside especially if they are vaccinated and California (and especially the Bay Area) are among the most vaccinated.
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  #8059  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 5:09 PM
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So it's more about normalizing masks and virtue signaling than it is about the science which has said people don't need to wear them outside especially if they are vaccinated and California (and especially the Bay Area) are among the most vaccinated.
California basically invented virtue signalling.

I have one family member here in England who is still adamant about wearing a mask on the tube or some indoor spaces (an aunt) and she’s the one who lived in California for 20+ years. It’s not a coincidence.
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  #8060  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2021, 6:05 PM
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So it's more about normalizing masks and virtue signaling than it is about the science which has said people don't need to wear them outside especially if they are vaccinated and California (and especially the Bay Area) are among the most vaccinated.
I live in San Francisco and no way are 75% of people wearing masks outside. More like 10% at most and that is usually (me included) wearing them from Muni to my office since you need to wear them in both places and sometimes I do not bother to remove it for the one block walk in between. In the office you only need to wear them in public spaces and not at your desk.
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