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  #81  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 5:01 AM
JSsocal JSsocal is offline
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Originally Posted by Amanita View Post
I'd wait till after it gets its reclad- I do wish they would get started on that soon, though. Poor Two Penn, even One Penn has its admirers.
Its not just an issue of the aesthetics of the building (which a reclad won't fix, 2 penn is an ugly and ill-proportioned building) it's also that the building sits on top of penn and constrains any new station that they do decide to build.

But any plans vornado previously has made will be reconsidered if rezoning is a serious proposition.
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  #82  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
I absolutely support Cuomo on this. This is what dumb NYC should be doing in many areas of the city. Sell development rights to use for infrastructure improvement but it so far has not taken advantage of this valuable source of revenue.

Of course, the narrow and NIMBY-minded NYC politicians are attacking it already.
Co-signed - I hope Albany goes full out war on this one to emerge victorious. It's too important to the region, let alone the economic health of the United States.
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  #83  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 9:26 AM
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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
what you are describing is a turf war between the city and state governments. they are fighting over who gets to control the free market (in broad terms.) My argument is that neither does. so no, I am not arguing for more government control, I am saying they are both wrong to try.
Well, remove the zoning (government control) around Penn Station and let the free market take care of the problem...
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  #84  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 9:28 AM
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Would you be cool with the government seizing YOUR property "for the greater good", after you had sunk a great deal of money into it?
No one is seizing any property. Just the opposite actually as government would be allowing more flexible to property owners to build what they want. No one right now is happy with the current situation.
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  #85  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Macy's wouldn't be touched, thats a given. That's history right there plus its a National Historic Landmark. But the trash along MSG, yes, those crummy low-rises/shacks with substandard stores.
Yeah, Macy's wouldn't be touched, it's outside the proposed boundaries anyway. But they were supposedly exploring putting a residential tower on top of the current store.



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Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
2 penn needs to be imploded yesterday.
It does, if only because it makes MSG look like a giant toilet. But there were plans afoot for a replacement early on in the Hudson Yards process. That needs to be dusted off again. Remove FAR caps.







Quote:
Originally Posted by CIA View Post
No one is seizing any property. Just the opposite actually as government would be allowing more flexible to property owners to build what they want. No one right now is happy with the current situation.

Right, if you look along 34th Street, it's mostly lowrise retail buildings. I know Vornado is big on retail, but the retail can (and would most likely) exist at the base of buildings with modern offices above. Of course, the critics will immediately come out and say you're building office space in east Manhattan, the Hudson Yards, and Downtown - why build it here? The answer is because you can, and should have long ago. It doesn't all have to get built at one time, let it be phased in. Lift the FAR caps, and let the market decide what can get built. The Hotel Penn still stands because Vornado is more comfortable letting the hotel at least pull in money for the time being. But if it had been a vacant site (like on the west side), I'm sure another tenant would have anchored by now. You don't get a better location for a large office tower in Manhattan, even as the surroundings are what they are.



Anyway, here's the simple but official wording of what is being called the New York Pennsylvania Station Public Safety Improvements Act.










This is the part that should satisfy all parties concerned, though I don't know how much the City's own sluggish approvals process will allow for proper redevelopment of the area.








Remember, Vornado and Related had a plan a decade or so ago that would have moved MSG to the Farley building, opening up the Penn Station site for redevelopment of major office towers, in addition to other major towers being planned. That plan came to a halt when MSG backed out, so it's not surprising that Cuomo would want condemnation powers to backup talks with MSG. No one wants a repeat of that.

But the governor is right in that Penn Station in it's current form is not just unsightly, but unsafe. It is dangerously overcrowded during the rush hours, and there are not enough exits. We have been lucky up to this point, but do we really want to keep trying our luck?

I was outside of Penn Station last lear when people started running out, and this was from the upper level where there are more exits...


Video Link




Video Link




Another look, if you like music with your video...



Video Link
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  #86  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 1:01 PM
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If it takes letting developers building larger towers here to get things done, I don't see the problem with it. There's no problem with putting larger buildings around Grand Central, the same logic should apply here. It's the most transit rich area of the city.

Some pages from Cuomo's presentation a couple of years ago about the need to do something with the current station, and circulation there...



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Last edited by NYguy; Apr 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM.
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  #87  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 2:01 PM
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Posted this in the 270 Park thread a month ago. The language that's being used by both Cuomo and his opponents indicate that something like a WTC complex on steroids is coming to the area. If there is a place to go over 2000 feet tall in NYC, it's here.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
This is only the beginning. While we are still about 15-20 years away from a complete Midtown East/Hudson Yards buildout, the next construction hotspots are the Penn Station area and the Garment District in my opinion. Both of those districts are greatly underutilized, well-served by public transit and filled with outdated, demolition ripe legacy office stock and Gene Kaufman junk that nobody would miss. Throw a proper rezoning into that mix and watch that construction boom leave the current one in the dust.
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  #88  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
Posted this in the 270 Park thread a month ago. The language that's being used by both Cuomo and his opponents indicate that something like a WTC complex on steroids is coming to the area. If there is a place to go over 2000 feet tall in NYC, it's here.
Cuomo has been on a "building big" crusade, and he's been checking off boxes. I always suspected he wanted a large building thrown into the mix, another big visible project to leave as his legacy. And your're right, what better place?

Of course, this can, and looks like it will have to go through the normal approvals process. But it definitely looks like they are thinking big. Expect BIG noise if something very large is proposed.


http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...lasio-outraged

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The state could also gain the power to increase zoning in the area to encourage the construction of towers of unprecedented height and bulk.

According to sources, the state would capture potentially billions of dollars of additional tax revenue from the larger properties built in the neighborhood and then use those funds to make sweeping fixes to Penn Station.
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  #89  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 2:16 PM
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But not to get too hyped up over details we don't know yet, let's just say an upzoned area replacing these lowrise structures is what the district needs.



Overview of the area from the Empire State Building...


Gokhan TUNC

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  #90  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 2:48 PM
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As it appears that they plan to preserve the worst arena in America, I've lost my enthusiasm for this plan.
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  #91  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 2:55 PM
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As it appears that they plan to preserve the worst arena in America, I've lost my enthusiasm for this plan.
I don't know why you thought they were going to move it, or where to. The Farley plan has long been dead. This part of the project is about generating a plan for density (and funds fed from that) that would allow for the improvements to Penn Station.

They best they could hope for at this point is a rebuilt arena in the current location.
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  #92  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 3:05 PM
JSsocal JSsocal is offline
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
I don't know why you thought they were going to move it, or where to. The Farley plan has long been dead. This part of the project is about generating a plan for density (and funds fed from that) that would allow for the improvements to Penn Station.

They best they could hope for at this point is a rebuilt arena in the current location.
No the best hope of moving the arena is to the postal sorting facility on 9th-10th ave. MSG's lease has not been renewed still. This was the conclusion of the board that put proposals out for a new penn a few years ago, (the backup, keeping msg in location, was the one cuomo picked for the presentation).
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  #93  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 4:55 PM
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No the best hope of moving the arena is to the postal sorting facility on 9th-10th ave.
That's not a hope at all, because that facility isn't moving anywhere. That's why we have the Farley building to work with in the first place, because operations were moved there.




Getting into Vornado's thinking on development, I've always suspected they were part of Cuomo's plan, and in fact have been in the middle of most of the development plans for the area. I don't know if Cuomo and de Blasio's silly tit for tat feud will slow down any part of an approvals process that will already be time consuming. The plan hasn't been announced yet, and there will have to be an environmental review - itself taking months - before the 7 month approval process could even begin.



Quote:
http://therealdeal.com/2016/11/01/vornado-post-roth/

November 01, 2016
By Hiten Samtani and Will Parker


More than a decade ago, Vornado and Related were tapped to redevelop the Farley Post Office into a train hall. The partners turned around and proposed something bolder: a $14 billion redevelopment that would have also transplanted Madison Square Garden across the street and replaced it with two skyscrapers, one taller than the Empire State building, and ten million square feet of office space. Then, in 2008, Gov. Eliot Spitzer resigned from office in the wake of his prostitution scandal, and plans for the new station and stadium were shelved.

“It just broke our hearts,” Roth said at a Columbia University talk in 2010. “Every time you go into Penn Station you should be a little bitter. Spit on the floor.”

By early 2016, Gov. Andrew Cuomo had pushed Vornado and Related out of the project altogether. But this September, Cuomo brought them back in the fold for a scaled-down version of the plan. In collaboration with the construction firm Skanska, the two developers will transform the Beaux Arts-style Farley Post Office into a train hall for the Long Island Rail Road, adding hundreds of thousands of square feet of commercial space along the way. The partners are expected to invest $600 million in the $1.6 billion project, which is slated for completion by 2020.

“We’re at the size now where [Roth] doesn’t need me and I don’t need him,” Related’s Ross told TRD in October. “But when we do something we do it because it works for both of us. And the fact is, we trust each other and we don’t let ego stand in the way of doing something, because certainly we both have the size and scale to do anything.”

A modernized Penn Station would be a boon to Vornado’s Penn Plaza bets. But observers question whether it could ever compete for top-tier tenants with Hudson Yards, which has signed the likes of L’Oreal, SAP, KKR and Time Warner.

Vornado, naturally, would like to get in on what Related has done so far in the Hudson Yards. But Related had help with a rezoning, something the City hasn't done so far on the area, and Cuomo attempted to bypass with his earlier proposal for control of the area.



Quote:
https://therealdeal.com/2017/05/23/c...on-task-force/

Cuomo taps Roth, LeFrak for Penn Station task force
Governor recommends booting Amtrak and having the state take over


By Kathryn Brenzel
May 23, 2017


Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday tapped Richard LeFrak, Steve Roth and others to serve on a task force dedicated to addressing myriad issues at Penn Station — including its management.

A key step to resolving issues at the busy station, according to the governor, is booting Amtrak. During an event at the City University of New York, Cuomo proposed shifting control of Penn Station to either the state, Port Authority of New York and New Jersey or a private “qualified operator.” In the first scenario, the state would use design-build authorization and work with the private sector to make repairs and operate the station.



Cuomo has since then selected the team to develop Farley (no surprise, Vornado & Related). But that still leaves the development of the Penn Station area - Vornado's plan for building.



http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...alert-20180402

Quote:
By Daniel Geiger
April 2, 2018


Representatives of Cuomo, who is up for re-election this year, said the bill that leaked to the public was merely a draft. They insisted that the state was not seeking unilateral control of the station and its neighborhood. Still, the seeming attempt to grab nearly unfettered control over the project spurred widespread condemnation from city officials, prompting the governor to back off.

While the notion of creating a legal framework to eliminate local elected officials’ input was unpopular enough, part of the backlash could be credited to Cuomo’s failure to articulate what should be done to fix Penn Station.

“The governor wants enormously sweeping powers to do almost anything he wants,” Gottfried said. “But it’s not entirely clear what the consequences of that might be.”

Cuomo has floated more ambitious ideas, such as relocating the Garden’s Hulu Theater and reconfiguring the western edge of Penn Station into a grand entrance with huge glass panes. That also has failed to come to fruition, in part because Amtrak, which owns the transit hub, controls that area.

Meanwhile, as planners continue to argue whether the Garden should be relocated as part of a big fix, Vornado has floated a new plan that would leverage its nearby real estate holdings to address several of the station’s shortcomings.
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  #94  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 6:03 PM
Prezrezc Prezrezc is offline
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In any event, Deblasio's camp will ultimately have to capitulate at some level. It doesn't look good for the City to continuously bitch about how bad their rapid transit system is while at once temporizing over the idea of cooperating with the same people outside the City who keep bringing it up in hopes of making the City actually do something.

Invoking eminent domain in this case is the best thing that could possibly come about.
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  #95  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 8:11 PM
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Why can't the city just let MSG's permit expire and force them to move elsewhere?
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  #96  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 8:12 PM
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When I become king of the world the first thing I'm going to do is move the Javits to Sunnyside yards and move MSG to where the Javits is.
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  #97  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
Why can't the city just let MSG's permit expire and force them to move elsewhere?
A real possibility is MSG stays, The Theater at Madison Square Garden is demolished (marked Forum/Forum Lobby below facing 8th Ave), and the removal of that sort of underbelly of MSG facing 8th Ave allows the construction of the renderings below.

Cuomo has proposed that exact idea, and MSG has come out in support.

Presumably in exchange, public entities share the cost with MSG somehow, MSG losses some/all of its tax exempt status, but get another 50 year lease. Not saying I agree with any of that, but MSG and the governor look like they're both on board, so looks like the front runner in terms of outcomes at the moment.

https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-penn-station/


https://newyorkyimby.com/2016/01/1809506.html


https://www.quora.com/How-realistic-...w-Penn-Station
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  #98  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
When I become king of the world the first thing I'm going to do is move the Javits to Sunnyside yards and move MSG to where the Javits is.
Javits will likely move to Queens at some point. That was the original plan in Cuomo's first term.

But I doubt MSG goes to the current Javits. MSG will have to relocate eventually, but the state will likely sell the Javits site to a major developer. Related would be the obvious buyer (HY Phase 3).
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  #99  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2018, 12:06 PM
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The "blightedness" of this area is highly, highly exaggerated.

This is a thriving, busy area. There's little vacancy (compare it to Madison btw 60th and 90th! how's that for blighted?). It's bustling. There are some homely buildings - but there are also gems like Napoleon LeBrun's Church of St. John the Baptist, one of the most beautiful churches in the city.

One of the most "blighted" strips has recently been razed and is being redeveloped (34th right off 8th). The biggest landholder in the area is Vornado, which intentionally underinvests in its buildings for years and years (sometimes decades) to then tear them down and - in many cases - walk away from the tear-down (look at what it did to the historic Filene's Building in Boston).

Right now, Vornado is intentionally turning the historic and once world-famous Hotel Pennsylvania into a dump ... so it can claim the area is "blighted."

I'd support a designation that forcibly takes all the land in the area away from Vornado, the creator of whatever "blight" there is. Would Cuomo's bill do this? NO! This is mind-numbing - it would actually give Vornado more land, more power.

This is a pretty sick and starch display of cronyism and borderline corruption: A developer chronically and consciously turns its holdings to crap to get the in-cahoots state to call the area blighted, and give more real estate to the source of blight. This is worth getting mad at.
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  #100  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2018, 11:34 PM
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Vornado seems to treat its office buildings differently- One Penn Plaza is in great shape and its management is extremely proud of their building. 1290 6th Avenue is likewise beautifully maintained, as are its other Manhattan office towers. They even gave 330 Madison a full reclad and lobby makeover a few years ago.

As for Hotel Penn, I was under the impression that they left that one in lousy shape (I suspect it wasn't so hot when they bought it) because they originally planned to tear it down and replace it with 15 Penn. Why sink money into a hotel that you're just gonna tear down soon, anyhow? Now it seems to be stuck in a holding pattern, while plans for the area get worked out. At some point it might well get torn down, Vornado might decide to keep it as a hotel (at which point it would get a good overhaul), or they might say "screw it" and sell it to somebody else who's willing to run it as a proper hotel. It's in a great location, and could be cleaned up, with an eye towards tourists (the hotel is right next to Penn Station and MSG, which would make its location great if it weren't currently such a mess)
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